Midfield player types in 4-2-3-1

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Bergen Blade

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Had a quick look at how PL teams who play the same formation as us are setting up their midfield:

Aston Villa

1636359812603.png

I see McGinn as a hard working box to box midfielder, Nakamba primarily a defensive midfielder who works hard to protect the defence.



Arsenal

1636359888243.png

Both Maitland-Niles and Lokonga are very fit athletes with decent defensive and attacking attributes.


West Ham:

1636359982478.png
Rice and Soucek are fit and strong athletes who protects the defence well. They may not be fantastic playmakers, but Rice can make strong runs and Soucek is always a threat in the air.




Conclusion

In this formation PL managers seem to think it's a necessity to have great athletes playing in midfield. They need to be competitive, quick and strong in the tackle. They don't necessarily need to be great playmakers, as creativity usually comes from elsewhere.


What we do

Norwood is a deep lying playmaker with good passing range. He has good technical ability, never hides and likes to dictate the pace of the game. He is slow, physically not strong and despite his deep position doesn't come to our rescue when we are in trouble defensively.

Fleck is a bit of an allrounder, like McGinn. At his best he's clever and competitive, his touch and passing is good, he can make forward runs on and off the ball. The odd good game apart, he just seems to have performed worse in every aspect of the game the past couple of seasons.


As a pairing they currently don't do enough defensively or offensively. Norwood still gets deep and his passing can still look decent. The problem is that his playmaking rarely sets up good attacks any more. It tends to find a teammate who still have it all to do, to create something. Fleck is taking part in some passing moves down the left, but we struggle to do it with enough tempo and opposition teams tend to comfortably clear what they manage to create. Fleck seems to make less penetrating runs than before. They are both good enough to keep our possession stats high, but we don't have enough to show for it.

Defensively they are struggling badly. They are both small, not too strong and struggle to cover enough ground. In second halves of games our other midfielders tire and don't always get back to help them, which means Norwood and Fleck's defensive mediocrity is punished. We've often struggled aerially at set pieces and Norwood and Fleck do little to solve that problem.

Some of the PL defensive midfielders win a lot of tackles in midfield and this wins them possession in good areas, helping them to set up breaks. Norwood and Fleck aren't great at this. They're not lazy, just not great at it. If they do pick up loose balls in midfield they often play the ball backwards and sideways to start of another patient attack, rather than bombing forward into space with it.
 

Sound like a broken record and assume most people are sick of me banging this drum but I don’t know why when Davies is fit that Basham doesn’t play the DM role.. he has all the attributes needed
It's beginning to come to that. I don't like seeing Bash in midfield generally as I struggle to get my head around someone who isn't brilliant technically being in there but he'd certainly offer us a lot of the qualities we're so clearly missing right now.

Guess it's the exact job we had Viera lined up for and then panicked with the fairly late Hourihane signing who offers us very little. Berge & Viera would've offered pretty much all we need in there.
 
It's beginning to come to that. I don't like seeing Bash in midfield generally as I struggle to get my head around someone who isn't brilliant technically being in there but he'd certainly offer us a lot of the qualities we're so clearly missing right now.

Guess it's the exact job we had Viera lined up for and then panicked with the fairly late Hourihane signing who offers us very little. Berge & Viera would've offered pretty much all we need in there.

I have a very strange relationship with Basham. He’s so unorthodox that I always subconsciously write him off. He 100% proves me wrong every time and I’ll very continue to write him off, despite the fact I am wrong.

I think I have an issue with the label utility player as it suggests a stop gap and an inability to excel in a specific role. The overlapping CB position finally have him that specific role but by the time he established himself there he had already spent too many years as a CB/RB/DM utility player that I can’t move past that.

Despite proving the ability to go past a man I’d always be on edge when he would venture pst the half way line doing Cruijff turns with limbs flailing at angles they shouldn’t be and yet he would very often pull something out of the bag.

and yet here I am being the massive hypocrite I am advocating him for yet another role as a stop gap whilst we needlessly sign someone who has less desire to do the role than Basham

I don’t know why but I’ll always have an unjustifiable indifference to the man despite the fact I’m completely wrong about him
 
Had a quick look at how PL teams who play the same formation as us are setting up their midfield:

Aston Villa

View attachment 124379

I see McGinn as a hard working box to box midfielder, Nakamba primarily a defensive midfielder who works hard to protect the defence.



Arsenal

View attachment 124380

Both Maitland-Niles and Lokonga are very fit athletes with decent defensive and attacking attributes.


West Ham:

View attachment 124381
Rice and Soucek are fit and strong athletes who protects the defence well. They may not be fantastic playmakers, but Rice can make strong runs and Soucek is always a threat in the air.




Conclusion

In this formation PL managers seem to think it's a necessity to have great athletes playing in midfield. They need to be competitive, quick and strong in the tackle. They don't necessarily need to be great playmakers, as creativity usually comes from elsewhere.


What we do

Norwood is a deep lying playmaker with good passing range. He has good technical ability, never hides and likes to dictate the pace of the game. He is slow, physically not strong and despite his deep position doesn't come to our rescue when we are in trouble defensively.

Fleck is a bit of an allrounder, like McGinn. At his best he's clever and competitive, his touch and passing is good, he can make forward runs on and off the ball. The odd good game apart, he just seems to have performed worse in every aspect of the game the past couple of seasons.


As a pairing they currently don't do enough defensively or offensively. Norwood still gets deep and his passing can still look decent. The problem is that his playmaking rarely sets up good attacks any more. It tends to find a teammate who still have it all to do, to create something. Fleck is taking part in some passing moves down the left, but we struggle to do it with enough tempo and opposition teams tend to comfortably clear what they manage to create. Fleck seems to make less penetrating runs than before. They are both good enough to keep our possession stats high, but we don't have enough to show for it.

Defensively they are struggling badly. They are both small, not too strong and struggle to cover enough ground. In second halves of games our other midfielders tire and don't always get back to help them, which means Norwood and Fleck's defensive mediocrity is punished. We've often struggled aerially at set pieces and Norwood and Fleck do little to solve that problem.

Some of the PL defensive midfielders win a lot of tackles in midfield and this wins them possession in good areas, helping them to set up breaks. Norwood and Fleck aren't great at this. They're not lazy, just not great at it. If they do pick up loose balls in midfield they often play the ball backwards and sideways to start of another patient attack, rather than bombing forward into space with it.
Brilliant analysis. As the best poster on this forum, I am fascinated to know how you would try to solve our problems.
 
Had a quick look at how PL teams who play the same formation as us are setting up their midfield:

Aston Villa

View attachment 124379

I see McGinn as a hard working box to box midfielder, Nakamba primarily a defensive midfielder who works hard to protect the defence.



Arsenal

View attachment 124380

Both Maitland-Niles and Lokonga are very fit athletes with decent defensive and attacking attributes.


West Ham:

View attachment 124381
Rice and Soucek are fit and strong athletes who protects the defence well. They may not be fantastic playmakers, but Rice can make strong runs and Soucek is always a threat in the air.




Conclusion

In this formation PL managers seem to think it's a necessity to have great athletes playing in midfield. They need to be competitive, quick and strong in the tackle. They don't necessarily need to be great playmakers, as creativity usually comes from elsewhere.


What we do

Norwood is a deep lying playmaker with good passing range. He has good technical ability, never hides and likes to dictate the pace of the game. He is slow, physically not strong and despite his deep position doesn't come to our rescue when we are in trouble defensively.

Fleck is a bit of an allrounder, like McGinn. At his best he's clever and competitive, his touch and passing is good, he can make forward runs on and off the ball. The odd good game apart, he just seems to have performed worse in every aspect of the game the past couple of seasons.


As a pairing they currently don't do enough defensively or offensively. Norwood still gets deep and his passing can still look decent. The problem is that his playmaking rarely sets up good attacks any more. It tends to find a teammate who still have it all to do, to create something. Fleck is taking part in some passing moves down the left, but we struggle to do it with enough tempo and opposition teams tend to comfortably clear what they manage to create. Fleck seems to make less penetrating runs than before. They are both good enough to keep our possession stats high, but we don't have enough to show for it.

Defensively they are struggling badly. They are both small, not too strong and struggle to cover enough ground. In second halves of games our other midfielders tire and don't always get back to help them, which means Norwood and Fleck's defensive mediocrity is punished. We've often struggled aerially at set pieces and Norwood and Fleck do little to solve that problem.

Some of the PL defensive midfielders win a lot of tackles in midfield and this wins them possession in good areas, helping them to set up breaks. Norwood and Fleck aren't great at this. They're not lazy, just not great at it. If they do pick up loose balls in midfield they often play the ball backwards and sideways to start of another patient attack, rather than bombing forward into space with it.
Spot on analysis, as usual, Bergers.
 
I would play MGW-Berge in the two CM/DM position they are our best two midfielders and best two on the ball
 
Had a quick look at how PL teams who play the same formation as us are setting up their midfield:

Aston Villa

View attachment 124379

I see McGinn as a hard working box to box midfielder, Nakamba primarily a defensive midfielder who works hard to protect the defence.



Arsenal

View attachment 124380

Both Maitland-Niles and Lokonga are very fit athletes with decent defensive and attacking attributes.


West Ham:

View attachment 124381
Rice and Soucek are fit and strong athletes who protects the defence well. They may not be fantastic playmakers, but Rice can make strong runs and Soucek is always a threat in the air.




Conclusion

In this formation PL managers seem to think it's a necessity to have great athletes playing in midfield. They need to be competitive, quick and strong in the tackle. They don't necessarily need to be great playmakers, as creativity usually comes from elsewhere.


What we do

Norwood is a deep lying playmaker with good passing range. He has good technical ability, never hides and likes to dictate the pace of the game. He is slow, physically not strong and despite his deep position doesn't come to our rescue when we are in trouble defensively.

Fleck is a bit of an allrounder, like McGinn. At his best he's clever and competitive, his touch and passing is good, he can make forward runs on and off the ball. The odd good game apart, he just seems to have performed worse in every aspect of the game the past couple of seasons.


As a pairing they currently don't do enough defensively or offensively. Norwood still gets deep and his passing can still look decent. The problem is that his playmaking rarely sets up good attacks any more. It tends to find a teammate who still have it all to do, to create something. Fleck is taking part in some passing moves down the left, but we struggle to do it with enough tempo and opposition teams tend to comfortably clear what they manage to create. Fleck seems to make less penetrating runs than before. They are both good enough to keep our possession stats high, but we don't have enough to show for it.

Defensively they are struggling badly. They are both small, not too strong and struggle to cover enough ground. In second halves of games our other midfielders tire and don't always get back to help them, which means Norwood and Fleck's defensive mediocrity is punished. We've often struggled aerially at set pieces and Norwood and Fleck do little to solve that problem.

Some of the PL defensive midfielders win a lot of tackles in midfield and this wins them possession in good areas, helping them to set up breaks. Norwood and Fleck aren't great at this. They're not lazy, just not great at it. If they do pick up loose balls in midfield they often play the ball backwards and sideways to start of another patient attack, rather than bombing forward into space with it.
Great stuff, it really does prove that we don't have the personnel at the club to play the formation we are currently playing.
 
Had a quick look at how PL teams who play the same formation as us are setting up their midfield:

Aston Villa

View attachment 124379

I see McGinn as a hard working box to box midfielder, Nakamba primarily a defensive midfielder who works hard to protect the defence.



Arsenal

View attachment 124380

Both Maitland-Niles and Lokonga are very fit athletes with decent defensive and attacking attributes.


West Ham:

View attachment 124381
Rice and Soucek are fit and strong athletes who protects the defence well. They may not be fantastic playmakers, but Rice can make strong runs and Soucek is always a threat in the air.




Conclusion

In this formation PL managers seem to think it's a necessity to have great athletes playing in midfield. They need to be competitive, quick and strong in the tackle. They don't necessarily need to be great playmakers, as creativity usually comes from elsewhere.


What we do

Norwood is a deep lying playmaker with good passing range. He has good technical ability, never hides and likes to dictate the pace of the game. He is slow, physically not strong and despite his deep position doesn't come to our rescue when we are in trouble defensively.

Fleck is a bit of an allrounder, like McGinn. At his best he's clever and competitive, his touch and passing is good, he can make forward runs on and off the ball. The odd good game apart, he just seems to have performed worse in every aspect of the game the past couple of seasons.


As a pairing they currently don't do enough defensively or offensively. Norwood still gets deep and his passing can still look decent. The problem is that his playmaking rarely sets up good attacks any more. It tends to find a teammate who still have it all to do, to create something. Fleck is taking part in some passing moves down the left, but we struggle to do it with enough tempo and opposition teams tend to comfortably clear what they manage to create. Fleck seems to make less penetrating runs than before. They are both good enough to keep our possession stats high, but we don't have enough to show for it.

Defensively they are struggling badly. They are both small, not too strong and struggle to cover enough ground. In second halves of games our other midfielders tire and don't always get back to help them, which means Norwood and Fleck's defensive mediocrity is punished. We've often struggled aerially at set pieces and Norwood and Fleck do little to solve that problem.

Some of the PL defensive midfielders win a lot of tackles in midfield and this wins them possession in good areas, helping them to set up breaks. Norwood and Fleck aren't great at this. They're not lazy, just not great at it. If they do pick up loose balls in midfield they often play the ball backwards and sideways to start of another patient attack, rather than bombing forward into space with it.
Quality as usual.

Obviously, spend in January is the main answer (Although Slav seems to only want ONE holding midfielder)
But do you think 1 holding is enough for us? Or is the 2 athletic (mostly deeper) box to box midfielders more suited to the Championship?

In other words do we need a Doyle/Monty or are we better getting 2 (early career) Coadys?
 
Neither can tackle, we need someone who can win the ball in midfield. It’s like Moses and the Red Sea no one puts a foot in until the opposition are on the edge of our box

They can both tackle and are both big mobile and physical

The most important aspect of playing cm/CDM is keeping the ball and progressing the ball forward they are the two best at that at the club

You don’t need to be a destroyer you just need to keep the ball and play forward

The main problem is fleck he gives the ball away 20 times a game
 
Neither can tackle and who wins the ball to enable them to keep the ball?
agree when we get it they and Ndiaye are the most creative but winning the ball higher up the field is a problem we have had for at least two seasons
 
Had a quick look at how PL teams who play the same formation as us are setting up their midfield:

Aston Villa

View attachment 124379

I see McGinn as a hard working box to box midfielder, Nakamba primarily a defensive midfielder who works hard to protect the defence.



Arsenal

View attachment 124380

Both Maitland-Niles and Lokonga are very fit athletes with decent defensive and attacking attributes.


West Ham:

View attachment 124381
Rice and Soucek are fit and strong athletes who protects the defence well. They may not be fantastic playmakers, but Rice can make strong runs and Soucek is always a threat in the air.




Conclusion

In this formation PL managers seem to think it's a necessity to have great athletes playing in midfield. They need to be competitive, quick and strong in the tackle. They don't necessarily need to be great playmakers, as creativity usually comes from elsewhere.


What we do

Norwood is a deep lying playmaker with good passing range. He has good technical ability, never hides and likes to dictate the pace of the game. He is slow, physically not strong and despite his deep position doesn't come to our rescue when we are in trouble defensively.

Fleck is a bit of an allrounder, like McGinn. At his best he's clever and competitive, his touch and passing is good, he can make forward runs on and off the ball. The odd good game apart, he just seems to have performed worse in every aspect of the game the past couple of seasons.


As a pairing they currently don't do enough defensively or offensively. Norwood still gets deep and his passing can still look decent. The problem is that his playmaking rarely sets up good attacks any more. It tends to find a teammate who still have it all to do, to create something. Fleck is taking part in some passing moves down the left, but we struggle to do it with enough tempo and opposition teams tend to comfortably clear what they manage to create. Fleck seems to make less penetrating runs than before. They are both good enough to keep our possession stats high, but we don't have enough to show for it.

Defensively they are struggling badly. They are both small, not too strong and struggle to cover enough ground. In second halves of games our other midfielders tire and don't always get back to help them, which means Norwood and Fleck's defensive mediocrity is punished. We've often struggled aerially at set pieces and Norwood and Fleck do little to solve that problem.

Some of the PL defensive midfielders win a lot of tackles in midfield and this wins them possession in good areas, helping them to set up breaks. Norwood and Fleck aren't great at this. They're not lazy, just not great at it. If they do pick up loose balls in midfield they often play the ball backwards and sideways to start of another patient attack, rather than bombing forward into space with it.
Nicely laid out point Bergen. I think ideally we’d role with Berge as the all rounder in the holding two driving forward from deep and offering a threat as a late arriving midfielder in the box whilst being neat and tidy on the ball coupled with a tough tackling run all day type alongside him. The issue is we don’t have that tough tackling type and I think Berge will soon depart. I fear we’ll be stuck with a mediocre and ageing midfield for the foreseeable future.
 

Our current central midfield options:

Norwood - covered by Bergen Blade
Fleck - covered by Bergen Blade
Berge - technically decent, virtually impossible to get off the ball, strong passing particularly over the short-to-medium range. Defensive positioning isn't great and he's awful in the air
Osborn - energetic but one-paced. High stamina but small and relatively weak. Again, poor in the air
Slater - limited technically but defensively more solid than any other option we have
Hourihane - slow, weak defensively both in terms of technical and tactical approach. Probably the best set piece taker we have though

It's no surprise that Jokanovic was trying to sign a 'defensive' midfielder in the summer and will do so again in January. Unless he's sold I think the ideal state is Berge plus an athletic ball winner with decent defensive positioning. That would probably spell the end of Fleck and Norwood being first choice in a two.
 
Such a shame that the Ronaldo Vieira deal fell apart because he could have really helped freshen up the midfield as we needed.

Berge, whilst being a big lad (and always injured), doesn't seem to have the athleticism to fill either of the roles in the system either which leaves the only other options being Hourihane (not athletic enough either) Guedioura (now injured and too old to play anything more than a bit part). There's Osborn and Slater but both are smaller and not at the standard required.

I think until we address the midfield we aren't going to achieve anything.
 
Our current central midfield options:

Norwood - covered by Bergen Blade
Fleck - covered by Bergen Blade
Berge - technically decent, virtually impossible to get off the ball, strong passing particularly over the short-to-medium range. Defensive positioning isn't great and he's awful in the air
Osborn - energetic but one-paced. High stamina but small and relatively weak. Again, poor in the air
Slater - limited technically but defensively more solid than any other option we have
Hourihane - slow, weak defensively both in terms of technical and tactical approach. Probably the best set piece taker we have though

It's no surprise that Jokanovic was trying to sign a 'defensive' midfielder in the summer and will do so again in January. Unless he's sold I think the ideal state is Berge plus an athletic ball winner with decent defensive positioning. That would probably spell the end of Fleck and Norwood being first choice in a two.
We also have luke Freeman who has been frozen out but for me is a better version of Osborn and Guedioura who is the defensive midfielder you mentioned but seems to be injured.
 
Had a quick look at how PL teams who play the same formation as us are setting up their midfield:

Aston Villa

View attachment 124379

I see McGinn as a hard working box to box midfielder, Nakamba primarily a defensive midfielder who works hard to protect the defence.



Arsenal

View attachment 124380

Both Maitland-Niles and Lokonga are very fit athletes with decent defensive and attacking attributes.


West Ham:

View attachment 124381
Rice and Soucek are fit and strong athletes who protects the defence well. They may not be fantastic playmakers, but Rice can make strong runs and Soucek is always a threat in the air.




Conclusion

In this formation PL managers seem to think it's a necessity to have great athletes playing in midfield. They need to be competitive, quick and strong in the tackle. They don't necessarily need to be great playmakers, as creativity usually comes from elsewhere.


What we do

Norwood is a deep lying playmaker with good passing range. He has good technical ability, never hides and likes to dictate the pace of the game. He is slow, physically not strong and despite his deep position doesn't come to our rescue when we are in trouble defensively.

Fleck is a bit of an allrounder, like McGinn. At his best he's clever and competitive, his touch and passing is good, he can make forward runs on and off the ball. The odd good game apart, he just seems to have performed worse in every aspect of the game the past couple of seasons.


As a pairing they currently don't do enough defensively or offensively. Norwood still gets deep and his passing can still look decent. The problem is that his playmaking rarely sets up good attacks any more. It tends to find a teammate who still have it all to do, to create something. Fleck is taking part in some passing moves down the left, but we struggle to do it with enough tempo and opposition teams tend to comfortably clear what they manage to create. Fleck seems to make less penetrating runs than before. They are both good enough to keep our possession stats high, but we don't have enough to show for it.

Defensively they are struggling badly. They are both small, not too strong and struggle to cover enough ground. In second halves of games our other midfielders tire and don't always get back to help them, which means Norwood and Fleck's defensive mediocrity is punished. We've often struggled aerially at set pieces and Norwood and Fleck do little to solve that problem.

Some of the PL defensive midfielders win a lot of tackles in midfield and this wins them possession in good areas, helping them to set up breaks. Norwood and Fleck aren't great at this. They're not lazy, just not great at it. If they do pick up loose balls in midfield they often play the ball backwards and sideways to start of another patient attack, rather than bombing forward into space with it.
Good post as usual, I also made a note of West ham's formation yesterday and noted the 2 midfield players protecting the back 4.
Comparing the athleticism, fitness and work rate of Rice and Soucek to Norwood and Fleck is night and day.
Until we can get someone in to do those jobs, surely we're got to abandon the back 4.
 
We also have luke Freeman who has been frozen out but for me is a better version of Osborn and Guedioura who is the defensive midfielder you mentioned but seems to be injured.
You're right about Guédioura. I'd completely forgotten about him. Not sure I'd class Freeman as a CM in the same way I wouldn't class Gibbs-White as one. He's a trequartisa/#10/attacking midfielder.

Add these to the list...
Adlène Guédioura: has played 25 league minutes. Happy to do the dirty work but questions over athleticism and mobility
Luke Freeman: gifted dribbler, creative but weak defensively, slow and poor in the air
Zak Brunt: arguably better offensively than defensively but the U23 coaching staff has been playing him slightly out of position in a box-to-box role. On loan at Southend in the National League
 
Was just saying on the shout box although far from ideal I would try Osborn and Berge as the two. At least they would be a bit more mobile.
 
We also have luke Freeman who has been frozen out but for me is a better version of Osborn and Guedioura who is the defensive midfielder you mentioned but seems to be injured.
Watching Luke Freeman play as DM would terrify me. He can't have a touch of the ball without doing a step over o_O
 
Sound like a broken record and assume most people are sick of me banging this drum but I don’t know why when Davies is fit that Basham doesn’t play the DM role.. he has all the attributes needed

I am sure he played there under Clough?
 
Brilliant analysis. As the best poster on this forum, I am fascinated to know how you would try to solve our problems.

Norwood - covered by Bergen Blade
Fleck - covered by Bergen Blade
Berge - technically decent, virtually impossible to get off the ball, strong passing particularly over the short-to-medium range. Defensive positioning isn't great and he's awful in the air
Osborn - energetic but one-paced. High stamina but small and relatively weak. Again, poor in the air
Slater - limited technically but defensively more solid than any other option we have
Hourihane - slow, weak defensively both in terms of technical and tactical approach. Probably the best set piece taker we have though

It's no surprise that Jokanovic was trying to sign a 'defensive' midfielder in the summer and will do so again in January. Unless he's sold I think the ideal state is Berge plus an athletic ball winner with decent defensive positioning. That would probably spell the end of Fleck and Norwood being first choice in a two.

Finding a solution to the above is definitely the difficult part, and any suggestion will certainly be met with criticism by some.

And there is a chance any new midfield combination may look even worse, which SJ found out when he tried sticking Courihane in there. But we won't know unless it's tried.

I'd try Basham and Berge, if the latter gets fit after the international break.

I would sacrifice continuity (it's not giving us a lot) for something completely different. Also sacrificing some of the ball playing skills that Fleck and Norwood do offer. It may lead to us giving the ball away more, but maybe we need to get back to basics a little. Hopefully we'd have a stronger look about us, win more balls in midfield, be more dynamic and forward facing. Less emphasis on slow build ups, more on transitions with the intention of getting behind teams when we can. Both Bash and Berge can carry the ball over distances and hopefully this will mean they can move the ball on to teammates running forward more often.

One team suggestion:

- - - - - - - Olsen - - - - - -
Baldock Egan Davies RND
- - - - Basham Berge - - - -
Bogle - - Ndiaye - - MGW
- - - Sharp/Mousset - - -


I'm sure there are a lot of people who've lost patience with a few here, but this is a team that we haven't seen fail, so it's all guesswork. I think Bogle, Ndiaye and MGW are our most creative players, but they are not getting the space they need at the moment, because our build up is too slow. A more robust defensive line up and a little simpler style of play is worth trying IMO.
 
Berge cannot do what we want him to do. He hides and is nesh. The good stuff comes from him too infrequently.

Having said that I’m sick to the back teeth of the current incumbents.

As for Basham, people may forget as it was a long time ago, but Basham could do a good job in a midfield 3, but could not cope in a 2. He has improved since then but I have low expectations. Personally I’d keep him in defence as he’s the best defender on the books. He’s a much better player than Davis and Egan is hopelessly out of form.
 
Finding a solution to the above is definitely the difficult part, and any suggestion will certainly be met with criticism by some.

And there is a chance any new midfield combination may look even worse, which SJ found out when he tried sticking Courihane in there. But we won't know unless it's tried.

I'd try Basham and Berge, if the latter gets fit after the international break.

I would sacrifice continuity (it's not giving us a lot) for something completely different. Also sacrificing some of the ball playing skills that Fleck and Norwood do offer. It may lead to us giving the ball away more, but maybe we need to get back to basics a little. Hopefully we'd have a stronger look about us, win more balls in midfield, be more dynamic and forward facing. Less emphasis on slow build ups, more on transitions with the intention of getting behind teams when we can. Both Bash and Berge can carry the ball over distances and hopefully this will mean they can move the ball on to teammates running forward more often.

One team suggestion:

- - - - - - - Olsen - - - - - -
Baldock Egan Davies RND
- - - - Basham Berge - - - -
Bogle - - Ndiaye - - MGW
- - - Sharp/Mousset - - -


I'm sure there are a lot of people who've lost patience with a few here, but this is a team that we haven't seen fail, so it's all guesswork. I think Bogle, Ndiaye and MGW are our most creative players, but they are not getting the space they need at the moment, because our build up is too slow. A more robust defensive line up and a little simpler style of play is
 

Had a quick look at how PL teams who play the same formation as us are setting up their midfield:

Aston Villa

View attachment 124379

I see McGinn as a hard working box to box midfielder, Nakamba primarily a defensive midfielder who works hard to protect the defence.



Arsenal

View attachment 124380

Both Maitland-Niles and Lokonga are very fit athletes with decent defensive and attacking attributes.


West Ham:

View attachment 124381
Rice and Soucek are fit and strong athletes who protects the defence well. They may not be fantastic playmakers, but Rice can make strong runs and Soucek is always a threat in the air.




Conclusion

In this formation PL managers seem to think it's a necessity to have great athletes playing in midfield. They need to be competitive, quick and strong in the tackle. They don't necessarily need to be great playmakers, as creativity usually comes from elsewhere.


What we do

Norwood is a deep lying playmaker with good passing range. He has good technical ability, never hides and likes to dictate the pace of the game. He is slow, physically not strong and despite his deep position doesn't come to our rescue when we are in trouble defensively.

Fleck is a bit of an allrounder, like McGinn. At his best he's clever and competitive, his touch and passing is good, he can make forward runs on and off the ball. The odd good game apart, he just seems to have performed worse in every aspect of the game the past couple of seasons.


As a pairing they currently don't do enough defensively or offensively. Norwood still gets deep and his passing can still look decent. The problem is that his playmaking rarely sets up good attacks any more. It tends to find a teammate who still have it all to do, to create something. Fleck is taking part in some passing moves down the left, but we struggle to do it with enough tempo and opposition teams tend to comfortably clear what they manage to create. Fleck seems to make less penetrating runs than before. They are both good enough to keep our possession stats high, but we don't have enough to show for it.

Defensively they are struggling badly. They are both small, not too strong and struggle to cover enough ground. In second halves of games our other midfielders tire and don't always get back to help them, which means Norwood and Fleck's defensive mediocrity is punished. We've often struggled aerially at set pieces and Norwood and Fleck do little to solve that problem.

Some of the PL defensive midfielders win a lot of tackles in midfield and this wins them possession in good areas, helping them to set up breaks. Norwood and Fleck aren't great at this. They're not lazy, just not great at it. If they do pick up loose balls in midfield they often play the ball backwards and sideways to start of another patient attack, rather than bombing forward into space with it.
Great Post Bergen makes it look pretty simple.
Maybe the Blades will take it on board I think they will be well aware of it just we dont have the players to put in.
Maybe another reason SJ was wrong implementing his ideas from the start instead of waiting till we had more of his style of player
What baffles me is the Prince did say pre-season (we will start with a 5 not a 4 )
SJ comes in and from match one starts with a 4 after no real pr-season to bed it in.
He did trifle with a 5 which he didn't stick with, accepted results wernt any better .
On the back of all this change players were losing confidence which is now becoming a big worry for SJ the club and the fans.
We will be in big trouble if we don't snap out of it.
 

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