Kop Stand Improvements

[Bert]

As the Lane was badly bombed in WWII and we had a game called off in the 80's for a UXB found nearby on Lancing Road, there may well be more 'gifts' from the Luftwaffe in that heap

Did they get the bomb detection crew in when the other three stands were rebuilt, and do you think a bomb might have landed on the Kop and nobody noticed the hole?

 

[Bert]

Did they get the bomb detection crew in when the other three stands were rebuilt, and do you think a bomb might have landed on the Kop and nobody noticed the hole?

Although Bert does agree, the mound would need clearing and facilities built under the new stand.

 

[Dkc]

Will people stop making this type of shit up?

To do the Kop properly means moving the 'Kop' it is named after, that is, a large pile of earth.

Spion Kop (stadiums) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As the Lane was badly bombed in WWII and we had a game called off in the 80's for a UXB found nearby on Lancing Road, there may well be more 'gifts' from the Luftwaffe in that heap. It will not be shifted in days or weeks, but will have to done slowly with modern day bomb detection expertise on hand.

Forget the steelwork, but I'd be amazed if the site could be cleared and levelled in much less than a year.

We're talking about the bolt-on design that already has planning permission, I think. No need to demolish the kop, just add more seats at the back.

 

[I should coco]

Did they get the bomb detection crew in when the other three stands were rebuilt, and do you think a bomb might have landed on the Kop and nobody noticed the hole?

The kop was a mound of earth with a thin topping.
Bombs weren't dropped one per raid.
What about a string of bombs fell, some didn't explode but others did and covered them over with fresh earth.
Why do you think UXBs are still being found in the UK nearly 80 years after most of them were dropped?

The other stands were presumably build with a few precise excavations to make holes for the foundations. They may well have had to do preliminary excavations first before digging deeper. That is not the same as moving hundreds of tonnes of earth that form a heap.

 

[snootyfenooty]

All this talk of ground expansion drags my feeble, old aged mind back to the early 70s when we committed to building the South Stand at the expense of investment in a good, but aging team. That was the start of the demise that led to us dropping to the fourth division. IMO the only way to expand the ground is to stay in the Premier League for at least 3 seasons, continually investing sensible amounts in improving the squad while holding back some of the riches on offer until we can afford to build without taking on massive debts. If we build on borrowed money and get relegated the parachute payments will be blown on servicing debts and the whole cycle of demise will begin again. I would rather watch the Blades survive and grow in the Premier League from a crap seat on a crap kop than sit in a comfortable seat in a half empty stand watching league one football again in five to ten years time because of poor financial planning, once in a lifetime is enough.

As for the membership scheme this stinks of a rip off. How do the club expect to gain new supporters and grow the fan base if 'virgin' fans such as the enormous student population can't walk up and buy a ticket at a reasonable price? I know many life long Blades who cannot get to all the games for a variety of reason who aren't going to pay £40 for a membership just to be put in a queue on the off chance that we might not sell out quickly for a relegation battle against Southampton.

£35 for a 'Cat A' game against Palace is also a kick in the balls for those walk up fans that have been walking up for years while we were in the doldrums. £8 for a pass on Now TV gets you the game in the comfort of your own front room (if you can't get a dodgy stream). Bearing in mind that away tickets are capped at £30 why are we charging more for fans who have been coming on and off for years or are the very ones who will grow our fan base in the future. Once they get used to not coming it will be very hard to persuade them to come back, especially if we do not survive in the Prem.

Agree pretty much with all of that except the kop option is a quick fix and wouldn't cost much in terms of the cash currently coming in at the Lane and even parachute payments if it gets to that as a bare minimum for another 3 years. The bolt on-design would come in at less than £10m, with additional savings made if they forego the salmon pink granite cladding, smoked glass panelling and murals of Billy Sharp. The rest of the expansion can wait until a) we have established ourselves and b) the ownership battle is decided. Re-the latter if the Prince wins we will probably be moving anyhow and if McCabe wins who the fuck knows.

The last paragraph is spot on. Whoever contrived the policy of drip feeding tickets at Cat A prices for the visit of those box office stars Crystal Palace on a Sunday needs to go back to night classes.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Will people stop making this type of shit up?

To do the Kop properly means moving the 'Kop' it is named after, that is, a large pile of earth.

Spion Kop (stadiums) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Forget the steelwork, but I'd be amazed if the site could be cleared and levelled in much less than a year.

Agree,,,, the problem with doing a totally new rebuild is it’s a massive risk. Every week delay is costing us loss revenue due to a massive 11000 reduction in capacity.

What’s happens if they find unexploded bombs, what if they find toxic waste or asbestos? It could delay the project by many months and increasing costs much more than expected. In fact a total rebuild could end being a financial disaster and for what?

2 inch more knee room and a slightly steeper rake. Then imagine if we change to rail seating, the sole improvement then become irrelevant.
All clubs try to run themselves as a business, so the architects will have produced several plans with costings and the club will choose the most cost effective.

 

[Sheffsteel]

The club sells out the corporate facilities for almost every game in the Championship and has lost a significant amount of its inadequate capacity to TV companies this season. Corporate facilities on the side stands of stadiums are sold for more than those behind goals, hence offer a better ROI.They can also be sold to the many well supported away sides in the Premier League/Championship.The South stand is already the stand that sells out the quickest in the Championship - with fans paying the highest prices in the ground. Extending the South also allows the club to give the away team the full BL end; an end that could be filled again by many Champ/Premier clubs
It would also give the club a visual boon, the frontage of a new huge stand would act as a big selling point for the club.The underneath of the stand could be packed with amenities that can attract a different clientele and cater for those spending their match day cash in town.
The kop has inadequate leg room, pre match, half time and even post match facilities which put limitations on the match day experience and revenue generation.There is also a lot of restricted view seats - above and beyond those at other clubs.
The argument that the club couldn't fill a bigger stadium is undermined by the crowd sizes the last time we were in the PL; the limitations to away capacity; and the inadequate facilities that housed these fans at the time. The club appears to have made a huge error in the way they are selling tickets this season, when last time we were here we had an exponential growth in our fanbase.
I work with students and have been inundated with questions about how to get tickets for BL.I've had almost 400 requests and it's not the start of semester one yet. A lot of these students are from wealthy backgrounds and wouldn't think twice about spending their cash at a PL game. I've had to tell them it's very difficult...
Surely this is false economy?

Excellent post
Agree that from a fans point of view the Kop upgrade is the priority, it’s the worse stand in the stadium having embarrassing 1980’s style facilities.
However also agree that from a club point of view, then the South stand is probably more of a priority over the Kop.

Imagine when we play away at Spurs. Danial Levy chats with McCabe in their designer board room.
On the return match when Levy comes to Bramall Lane you can imagine that McCabe might feel a sense of embarrassment at our 1980’s style boardroom and executive facilities. It’s the same when we invite players, agents, media men (Gary Lineker and co) to the stadium.
These days it’s really important to create a fantastic impression to vip’s, hence the big advantage of a top class 21st century South stand.

Let’s not forget that McCabe did mention the possibility of doing both stands at the same time, he mentioned something about 2 projects done at the same time has financial savings. However I thought we were planning to do the Cherry Street Corner superstore and offices first, and that’s not even been started.

 

[BladeInIreland]

A lot of clubs are growing at the moment and we’re very restricted. Good players come and go but I’d like to use this run in the premiership to fall into the category of club that “belongs in the premiership”. We need to work towards pushing 40k and more on big games. This can only be done if the ground is big enough, the facilities good enough, good pricing and obviously premiership football. But when fans are hooked they don’t go away as easy. There’s huge potential for a Sheffield team to become actually big, we should make sure it’s us.

 

[alcoblade]

Will people stop making this type of shit up?

To do the Kop properly means moving the 'Kop' it is named after, that is, a large pile of earth.

Spion Kop (stadiums) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As the Lane was badly bombed in WWII and we had a game called off in the 80's for a UXB found nearby on Lancing Road, there may well be more 'gifts' from the Luftwaffe in that heap. It will not be shifted in days or weeks, but will have to done slowly with modern day bomb detection expertise on hand.

Forget the steelwork, but I'd be amazed if the site could be cleared and levelled in much less than a year.

I believe he was referring to an extension behind the current kop, not replacing the current one.

 

[I should coco]

I believe he was referring to an extension behind the current kop, not replacing the current one.

The thread has gone all over the place with people rightly pointing out the shitty legroom (I sit there and it is very akward for anyone bigger than about 5'10").
They obeyed the Taylor report by simply concreting over every two standing steps to make one new seating step. This was done fro speed over the summer of 1991 to keep the capacity. To do it properly you'd have to re-do the old kop first.

If he was just talking about an extension (although we'd have another quick rush job), then I apologise for my intemperate language.

 

[Sheffsteel]

I believe he was referring to an extension behind the current kop, not replacing the current one.

Agree..does look like that. McCabe said the bolt on design would take 12 months to build, then it would take a further 3 months over the Summer (when the ground is shut) to remove the present roof and put on a new roof.

So basically it would take 1 season to do but would need to be started at the end of the season in May.

 

[Moan? Nope-I saw Longhorn]

The problem with the argument of waiting for sustained success for development is that development isn’t instant. So if and when success is attained you then have to wait for the development to be complete and could potentially miss the boat?

Atalanta in Italy have reached the CL this season and have to play their CL games at the San Siro, not suggesting we are going to make the CL but you get my point

Fuck that - it's a ball acher 250 mile round trip for me every home game as it is
Can't we identify anywhere closer than Milan - Champions League or no Champions League

 

[grafikhaus]

Agree..does look like that. McCabe said the bolt on design would take 12 months to build, then it would take a further 3 months over the Summer (when the ground is shut) to remove the present roof and put on a new roof.

So basically it would take 1 season to do but would need to be started at the end of the season in May.

Can't see that. The steelwork could be fabricated in advance and stored on that land behind the kop, ready to go straight after the season ended. The existing roof/steelwork could be removed and replaced from one side to the other.

I think Mr. McCabe has asked for tenders from Crossrail.

 

[BladeInIreland]

Can't see that. The steelwork could be fabricated in advance and stored on that land behind the kop, ready to go straight after the season ended. The existing roof/steelwork could be removed and replaced from one side to the other.

I think Mr. McCabe has asked for tenders from Crossrail.

Didn’t his plans also include student accommodation in the corner? If the new owner is not doing that it would be quicker.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Can't see that. The steelwork could be fabricated in advance and stored on that land behind the kop, ready to go straight after the season ended. The existing roof/steelwork could be removed and replaced from one side to the other.

I think Mr. McCabe has asked for tenders from Crossrail.

There’s loads of internal work to do, bars, toilets, kiosks, meeting rooms and offices. The Spurs stadium was up and looked finished ages ago when all the steel work was up and seats installed but it was the wiring, plumbing, safety testing, cosmetic stuff that took ages. Anyway let’s imagine the Kop could be done in 6 months, it would NOT speed up the process because they’d need a full Kop closure for 2 or 3 months when the roof is replaced, so this could only be done during the Summer close season.

Just had a thought.....the future of football stadia might be they are at such a comfort level that fans prefer to drink there instead of the pub
And also prefer to hang around the stadium for hours after the match. The Spurs stadium offers fantastic bar and food areas where (believe it or not) food and drink is normal prices...not rip off prices.....encouraging many 1000’s to use their facilities.

If United did increase capacity.....then if they concentrate on providing really large fully equipped modern concourse areas with a seating area.
Then they might take some of the business that would normally go to a pub, it also eases traffic congestion if some fans stay behind to eat or drink at the stadium,

The future of stadia seems to develop it as a multi purpose leisure complex, ideally used and bringing in revenue 365 days per year.

 

[Worksop II]

because they’d need a full Kop closure for 2 or 3 months when the roof is replaced

Thing is, during those 3 months we would only use the stadium for 4 hours every fortnight .....

Surely they could nip up the bolts and fuck off out the way, while a game of footy took place ......

 

[snootyfenooty]

Can't see that. The steelwork could be fabricated in advance and stored on that land behind the kop, ready to go straight after the season ended. The existing roof/steelwork could be removed and replaced from one side to the other.

I think Mr. McCabe has asked for tenders from Crossrail.

Yes, this is exactly how it works and puts the kop extension in pole position to be done first. The in-situ part of the work would primarily consist of a few fuck-off reinforced concrete piles/columns at the back to hold everything up. The cantilever trusses for the roof and remaining steelwork would be fabricated off-site and would remain there until ready for assembly. You could take a view on the interference the foundation works would have on kop capacity but I reckon current HSE guidance would knock half of it out for the season, maybe a bit less for expediency's sake so that the ST holders can be accommodated. Keeping most of the kop open is a tad optimistic in my view. The same would apply to the SS extension before anyone says lets do that first then. Once the foundation and structural concrete works is done, the steelwork and roof installation would be a breeze in relative terms.

 

[BushBlade]

Excellent post
Agree that from a fans point of view the Kop upgrade is the priority, it’s the worse stand in the stadium having embarrassing 1980’s style facilities.
However also agree that from a club point of view, then the South stand is probably more of a priority over the Kop.

Imagine when we play away at Spurs. Danial Levy chats with McCabe in their designer board room.
On the return match when Levy comes to Bramall Lane you can imagine that McCabe might feel a sense of embarrassment at our 1980’s style boardroom and executive facilities. It’s the same when we invite players, agents, media men (Gary Lineker and co) to the stadium.
These days it’s really important to create a fantastic impression to vip’s, hence the big advantage of a top class 21st century South stand.

Let’s not forget that McCabe did mention the possibility of doing both stands at the same time, he mentioned something about 2 projects done at the same time has financial savings. However I thought we were planning to do the Cherry Street Corner superstore and offices first, and that’s not even been started.

Won’t Levy’s first question to McCabe be ‘how did you get in here?’ Because he won’t be our owner if he loses the court case and has said he’ll sell if he wins.

Nowt’s going to happen until this is sorted.

 

[Pedro's Winger]

Longer term if we don't significantly upgrade the stadium it's likely an owner will look at the prospect of building a completely new stadium somewhere else as per various other clubs, most recently Everton who are in a similar-ish situation with an atmospheric but ageing ground.

 

[super_pig]

Agree pretty much with all of that except the kop option is a quick fix and wouldn't cost much in terms of the cash currently coming in at the Lane and even parachute payments if it gets to that as a bare minimum for another 3 years. The bolt on-design would come in at less than £10m, with additional savings made if they forego the salmon pink granite cladding, smoked glass panelling and murals of Billy Sharp. The rest of the expansion can wait until a) we have established ourselves and b) the ownership battle is decided. Re-the latter if the Prince wins we will probably be moving anyhow and if McCabe wins who the fuck knows.

The last paragraph is spot on. Whoever contrived the policy of drip feeding tickets at Cat A prices for the visit of those box office stars Crystal Palace on a Sunday needs to go back to night classes.

Cat A because it is the first game i'd guess??
fun factoid.. my great grandfather was shot at Spion Kop (survived). my grandmother told me that if she had been a good girl she was allowed to put her finger in the hole! entertainment early 20th century style!
fun fact2. he swore blind he was carried off the battlefield by Ghandi

 

[snootyfenooty]

Cat A because it is the first game i'd guess??
fun factoid.. my great grandfather was shot at Spion Kop (survived). my grandmother told me that if she had been a good girl she was allowed to put her finger in the hole! entertainment early 20th century style!

Fair enough yeah but the drip feeding of tickets is a joke. Its easier getting a doctor's appointment.

Could say the bullet hole was a borehole (or boerhole)!

 

[Boxer Blade]

Regarding supporters remembering the south stand and it holding us back for years is fair enough but hopefully when the ownership issue is resolved the money for ground improvements will (hopefully) not effect the budget on players and will be completed by our fabulously rich new owners

 

[Sheffsteel]

Everton who are in a similar-ish situation with an atmospheric but ageing ground.

Everton’s ground is totally hemmed in by roads...the problem them is that it’s impossible to expand beyond its current 40,000 capacity.
Hence all their fans accept that staying at Goodson Park is not even an option.
Where as we have loads of space to expand on 2 sides, Shoreham Street and Cherry Street.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Regarding supporters remembering the south stand and it holding us back for years is fair enough but hopefully when the ownership issue is resolved the money for ground improvements will (hopefully) not effect the budget on players and will be completed by our fabulously rich new owners

Are you expecting them to improve the stadium for free....so it’s a gift to the fans?
Don’t know any owner of any other club that has done that, they usually have a business plan with a return on their investment within a reasonable timeframe.
I can’t see any option but to dip into the player budget for a few years hence why the best value for money option might be best.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Regarding supporters remembering the south stand and it holding us back for years is fair enough but hopefully when the ownership issue is resolved the money for ground improvements will (hopefully) not effect the budget on players and will be completed by our fabulously rich new owners

The premiership money, which is substantial lets not kid ourselves, is available for both team and ground improvements, which is what we're talking about in our case. Our fabulously rich new owners can build us a new one!

 

[CarlingBlade]

When we have the chance, we really need to do it properly. It needs rebuilding completely. It would be costly, it would be some upheaval, but long term it would be emphatically worth it, and a tremendous legacy for McCabe, potentially.

McCabes legacy will be the overall ground developments, in his Q&A at the Octagon last year he said growing up he was always jealous of Hillsborough and when he had the chance he wanted to improve Bramall Lane, i think a new South Stand will be McCabes legacy by the sound of what he was saying.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

If new owners came in with a case full of cash to spend on the ground they'll see which is a better return of investment. The south stand with hospitality would win hands down.

 

[snootyfenooty]

McCabes legacy will be the overall ground developments, in his Q&A at the Octagon last year he said growing up he was always jealous of Hillsborough and when he had the chance he wanted to improve Bramall Lane, i think a new South Stand will be McCabes legacy by the sound of what he was saying.

I've a feeling the Prince won't be calling it "The McCabe Stand" though!

 

[YES Blade]

Are you expecting them to improve the stadium for free....so it’s a gift to the fans?
Don’t know any owner of any other club that has done that, they usually have a business plan with a return on their investment within a reasonable timeframe.
I can’t see any option but to dip into the player budget for a few years hence why the best value for money option might be best.

What do you class as a reasonable time frame? Personally, I'd say 30 years.

 

[CarlingBlade]

If new owners came in with a case full of cash to spend on the ground they'll see which is a better return of investment. The south stand with hospitality would win hands down.

Corporate Hospitality is a cash cow (in the PL), currently a waiting list of x24 for executive boxes at the Lane.