Kop needs urgent redevelopment

[CarlMcBlade]

It’s never been choc a block occupancy. Ever.

Ever?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Seems to be a certain group of people posting here that think we can only ever spend money on one thing or another, and that same group of people are "on pitch above all else" in terms of what it is spent on. The former clearly isn't true, and the latter is clearly silly in the longer term

Game changes if true. Tell us more about this being able to spend the same money on and off the pitch at the same time?

 

[Tom Bott]

Ever?

Well during Covid McC. allowed people sewing face masks in there for free.

 

[Tom Bott]

Game changes if true. Tell us more about this being able to spend the same money on and off the pitch at the same time?

Two pots equal piss in each.

Running a business is simple, can't imagine why more don't 'risk' it.

Data from the BLS shows that approximately 20% of new businesses fail during the first two years of being open, 45% during the first five years, and 65% during the first 10 years. Only 25% of new businesses make it to 15 years or more.

Far better being a 'business' 'advisor' on the internet.

I'm one of the 25%

 

[Sheffsteel]

The kop & the John St corner should be totally demolished, i'd like to see the John St corner used as the media centre or something like Derby have then a new kop which goes round & join the South Stand. Cloud cuckoo land springs to mind but hey ..... it'd look a whole lot better than what we have now.

So you'd like to spend multi millions to reduce capacity and lower our revenue.
Any idea can't be a vanity project, it must have a financial return on investment business plan.

I've heard it said "lets join the Kop onto the South stand"
but that wouldn't increase capacity because currently our Kop actually goes almost behind the South stand, if we join it
we gain some seats in the new corner but lost all those current seats on gangway A.

Also if we join the 2 stands then we're coping the bowl style stadiums.
I'd rather us remain more unique with character.

Being realistic the McCabe plans provide 90% of what everyone wants for the lowest price.
I think the massive advantage of the McCabe plan was that current capacity would hardly be effected because we'd be building behind the current stands.
So whilst we're expanding the stadium the Kop and South stand remains open and operational.
This means no loss of revenue and no angry fans, don't think it's acceptable to ask a season ticket holder to not attend a match for 2 years.
Once that season ticket holder finds other things to do on a Saturday afternoon there's no gaurantee the will return 2 years later.

 

[Charlieblade]

The Holte development was completed in 1995. The stand was partially opened around seven months after demolition, around October of the following season.

No exec boxes.

Thank you for that information.
As a club we are in a different position. Post Covid and the Grenfell cladding issues, we are facing real world economic difficulties that make any building proposition expensive. Increased costs, higher borrowing expenses, inflation and the changes to work patterns following Covid work from home practices.
This all points to instability and financial risks incumbent on any investor without a fully operational crystal ball.

Buying into a football club was always a dodgy proposition before Covid impacts are taken into account. Pre Covid, the club, against all odds, finished 9th in the EPL. Without the prospect of Covid, Grenfell issues and inflation on the horizon, the owner put his trust in the Wilder plan, because Wider had proven that he knew football better than the Prince.

Fast forward and as we now know, that was a business man’s dream, incurring a range of financial liabilities that the club faces today. PH for all his flaws and successes has seriously limited funds for player acquisitions. He is getting on with it, and he was still allowed to employ a full time defence coach.

Unless the club gains a decent financial foothold in the EPL, it faces a very uncertain future. (The only other option is a billionaire altruistic blades fan buying the club).

Run it as a business and the fans moan. Run it as a loss making vanity project, and the accountant/CFO will cry every day.

As far as stadium development goes, under current management, the club can only wait until safety issues force the club to face the problem. To do otherwise faces a burdensome mortgage, repayable at higher interest rates than previously planned for. This is the reality today, for any property holder facing inflated mortgage costs.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

The expert view, smartarse, is based on facts.

The fact is in the height of COVID restrictions they signed a deal with Hilton with obvious intentions to reopen the hotel. I'm sorry this winds you up so much.

I am not anti Prince like you keep saying. He's just not wealthy enough to take the club to another level and probably without parachute payments to keep us up there in the championship. 99% of the planet is in the same boat

 

[Sean Thornton]

The fact is in the height of COVID restrictions they signed a deal with Hilton with obvious intentions to reopen the hotel. I'm sorry this winds you up so much.

I am not anti Prince like you keep saying. He's just not wealthy enough to take the club to another level and probably without parachute payments to keep us up there in the championship. 99% of the planet is in the same boat

June 21 was hardly the height of Covid when restrictions were being lifted in July and the Covid job retention scheme had begun to wind down earlier that year. Try to use facts.

Do you acknowledge that the reason the planned Kop, hotel and academy developments have been hindered by the lack of cash flow which didn’t even meet existing debt?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Thank you for that information.
As a club we are in a different position. Post Covid and the Grenfell cladding issues, we are facing real world economic difficulties that make any building proposition expensive. Increased costs, higher borrowing expenses, inflation and the changes to work patterns following Covid work from home practices.
This all points to instability and financial risks incumbent on any investor without a fully operational crystal ball.

Buying into a football club was always a dodgy proposition before Covid impacts are taken into account. Pre Covid, the club, against all odds, finished 9th in the EPL. Without the prospect of Covid, Grenfell issues and inflation on the horizon, the owner put his trust in the Wilder plan, because Wider had proven that he knew football better than the Prince.

Fast forward and as we now know, that was a business man’s dream, incurring a range of financial liabilities that the club faces today. PH for all his flaws and successes has seriously limited funds for player acquisitions. He is getting on with it, and he was still allowed to employ a full time defence coach.

Unless the club gains a decent financial foothold in the EPL, it faces a very uncertain future. (The only other option is a billionaire altruistic blades fan buying the club).

Run it as a business and the fans moan. Run it as a loss making vanity project, and the accountant/CFO will cry every day.

As far as stadium development goes, under current management, the club can only wait until safety issues force the club to face the problem. To do otherwise faces a burdensome mortgage, repayable at higher interest rates than previously planned l for. This is the reality today, for any property holder facing inflated mortgage costs.

“Yeah, but Bettis said………”

 

[Stevo71]

So you'd like to spend multi millions to reduce capacity and lower our revenue.
Any idea can't be a vanity project, it must have a financial return on investment business plan.

I've heard it said "lets join the Kop onto the South stand"
but that wouldn't increase capacity because currently our Kop actually goes almost behind the South stand, if we join it
we gain some seats in the new corner but lost all those current seats on gangway A.

Also if we join the 2 stands then we're coping the bowl style stadiums.
I'd rather us remain more unique with character.

Being realistic the McCabe plans provide 90% of what everyone wants for the lowest price.
I think the massive advantage of the McCabe plan was that current capacity would hardly be effected because we'd be building behind the current stands.
So whilst we're expanding the stadium the Kop and South stand remains open and operational.
This means no loss of revenue and no angry fans, don't think it's acceptable to ask a season ticket holder to not attend a match for 2 years.
Once that season ticket holder finds other things to do on a Saturday afternoon there's no gaurantee the will return 2 years later.

Jesus christ isn't no-one allowed an opinion anymore? I'll stick to what I said thanks all the same.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

June 21 was hardly the height of Covid when restrictions were being lifted in July and the Covid job retention scheme had begun to wind down earlier that year. Try to use facts.

Do you acknowledge that the reason the planned Kop, hotel and academy developments have been hindered by the lack of cash flow which didn’t even meet existing debt?

All I am saying is they wanted to reopen the hotel. That is all. You are saying it was a loss making venture. I am saying even in 2020 and 2021 when COVID restrictions were in place they were trying to get it reopened and even agreed a deal to do so. For some unknown reason post 2021 it paused. From this point it's guesswork but likely the Prince deciding he was going to sell up as the profitability, COVID and post Grenfell regulations were all known at that stage by them.

 

[S64 Blade]

After PL 1, maybe they thought we’d still be there for 3 seasons? Damn their eyes for not foretelling Covid and Wilders meltdown.

If you plan a budget expecting £100m+ then when half of that disappears you have to revise. The hotel would have been the first on the back burner.

We didn’t and don’t now have the money so the hotel is not a priority.

Why can’t people understand there’s no money but are pointing out what the plans were when things looked more rosy?

The deal was signed in June 2021, after we’d been relegated.

It’s just another example of the club being badly managed off the pitch.

Can’t afford it? Fine. Don’t sign a deal committing to it.

 

[Sean Thornton]

All I am saying is they wanted to reopen the hotel. That is all. You are saying it was a loss making venture. I am saying even in 2020 and 2021 when COVID restrictions were in place they were trying to get it reopened and even agreed a deal to do so. For some unknown reason post 2021 it paused. From this point it's guesswork but likely the Prince deciding he was going to sell up as the profitability, COVID and post Grenfell regulations were all known at that stage by them.

What l’m saying about losses is a fact. Not like your height of Covid bs.

“For some unknown reason” Jesus Christ what stupid comment.

I notice you’ve swerved the money question. Wonder why?

The deal was signed in June 2021, after we’d been relegated.

It’s just another example of the club being badly managed off the pitch.

Can’t afford it? Fine. Don’t sign a deal committing to it.

The deal was signed in June 2021, after we’d been relegated.

It’s just another example of the club being badly managed off the pitch.

Can’t afford it? Fine. Don’t sign a deal committing to it.

You accept the financial situation had worsened from PL 2 season? Because of covid, loss of match day income and a TV and prize money reduction ?

Let’s start with the elephant in the room.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

My argument was that the case for ground improvement/ expansion is quite laughable when we can’t even manage the real estate we already have…The hotel being one example.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

It was a loss making venture. Look so you can be sure.

The previous would have been known to them. And yet they still went ahead. Even post relegation covid and grenfell regulation changes. They obviously think they can make it work as it's not a ego thing just business! Last I will say on it it's boring!

 

[Sean Thornton]

All I am saying is they wanted to reopen the hotel. That is all. You are saying it was a loss making venture. I am saying even in 2020 and 2021 when COVID restrictions were in place they were trying to get it reopened and even agreed a deal to do so. For some unknown reason post 2021 it paused. From this point it's guesswork but likely the Prince deciding he was going to sell up as the profitability, COVID and post Grenfell regulations were all known at that stage by them.

The post Grenfell regulations were known to them in June 2021? Is that another of your facts? I don’t really no, but as sure as you seem no doubt you can provide a link.

 

[Sean Thornton]

The previous would have been known to them. And yet they still went ahead. Even post relegation covid and grenfell regulation changes. They obviously think they can make it work as it's not a ego thing just business! Last I will say on it it's boring!

Losses - won’t check facts
Covid claim. - wrong
Cladding issue known - jury out but the relevant act came out in 2022 and l believe came into law December that year.
Wee we plotless - can’t answer.


Low rent esablade.

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

Why can’t we have both? Spending money on the stadium doesn’t automatically mean the team suffers. In the same way that spending nothing on the stadium doesn’t mean the team will be successful.

If we have a bottomless pit of cash, yes.

 

[S64 Blade]

Let’s start with the elephant in the room.

The elephant in the room is going ahead and committing to something we knew (should have known if people were doing their jobs properly), we couldn’t afford. We were down, covid had been and all but gone, building regs were known.

I’m in agreement that if we don’t have the money, then we can’t do it. However, you seem incapable of admitting that the club have dropped a bollock by not doing their due diligence, before jumping in feet first (yet again - Dozy/made up LinkedIn conman a further two examples of cosying up to deals which weren’t viable).

 

[blade too long]

2 things.

"If" is doing a lot of heavy lifting BTL

Revenue is not income.

Other than that though......

i said revenue , never said profit

but 42m is not to sniffed at as extra on what we pull now

 

[Sean Thornton]

The elephant in the room is going ahead and committing to something we knew (should have known if people were doing their jobs properly), we couldn’t afford. We were down, covid had been and all but gone, building regs were known.

I’m in agreement that if we don’t have the money, then we can’t do it. However, you seem incapable of admitting that the club have dropped a bollock by not doing their due diligence, before jumping in feet first (yet again - Dozy/made up LinkedIn conman a further two examples of cosying up to deals which weren’t viable).

IF we don’t have the money? Are you suggesting at some point we did?

I haven’t said they haven’t dropped a bollock. The fact that we had an embargo shows that the coatings were out of kilter somewhere BUT after the money was in effect spent we were stuck with it. See Wilders signings.

However, there’s a resistance to actually reconcile the fact that the development couldn’t be done because we had no money. That’s an easy concept to grasp but we still have the whining about it still not happening and playing the blame game.

Still, the CEO’s and COO’s on here will never have made a mistake will they?

 

[YES Blade]

If we have a bottomless pit of cash, yes.

Do Brentford have a bottomless pit of cash? Is that how they’ve managed to build a new stadium?

What about Spurs? How have they managed to spend £1 billion on a stadium?

I’ve never said it’s easy or that we’re sitting on a pile of cash to spend on the Lane. My point is that it’s possible for a club like ours to have a better stadium, the proof being that smaller clubs than us have better stadiums.

 

[Sean Thornton]

The elephant in the room is going ahead and committing to something we knew (should have known if people were doing their jobs properly), we couldn’t afford. We were down, covid had been and all but gone, building regs were known.

I’m in agreement that if we don’t have the money, then we can’t do it. However, you seem incapable of admitting that the club have dropped a bollock by not doing their due diligence, before jumping in feet first (yet again - Dozy/made up LinkedIn conman a further two examples of cosying up to deals which weren’t viable).

Do you have a link to your claim that United knew the cladding guidelines in June 21? The act came in a year later.
Odd that the Hilton signed up at the time if that’s the case. Surely they’d know this would impact on any timeline.

Perhaps the business world is full of idiots when there is all this talent on Social Media.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Do Brentford have a bottomless pit of cash? Is that how they’ve managed to build a new stadium?

What about Spurs? How have they managed to spend £1 billion on a stadium?

I’ve never said it’s easy or that we’re sitting on a pile of cash to spend on the Lane. My point is that it’s possible for a club like ours to have a better stadium, the proof being that smaller clubs than us have better stadiums.

How was the Brentford stadium funded?
The enabling development to fund the stadium includes a residential led development comprising over 900 apartments surrounding the stadium together with the conversion of the existing ground to family housing.


Spurs are a well established Pl club, had £150m of cash to put in and could virtually guarantee 60k per home game as they had a waiting list of over 20k for season tickets. A supermarket, shops and bars are included.

Neither are reasonable comparisons.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Ever?

Not enough to make an annual profit. It may have sold out once a week but bearing in mind prices were discounted quite often.

One method of valuing a hotel is based on occupancy. The Copthornes value was written down each year.

 

[Sean Thornton]

i said revenue , never said profit

but 42m is not to sniffed at as extra on what we pull now

Take out the vat and it’s £5m. £5m a season of selling 15000 extra tickets every home game.

Out of that, even if achieved, the club has to make capital and interest payments. Who knows what’s left?

 

[Stand United]

The enabling development to fund the stadium includes a residential led development comprising over 900 apartments surrounding the stadium together with the conversion of the existing ground to family housing.

Not including the McCabe-owned plots of land has created an issue for the Kop extension – not so much in causing any access issues (the plots were separated out from the Kop as part of the planning application, including relocating turnstiles, so that should all be unaffected), but more in cutting off an income-generating development on those plots, which would have seen to a large chunk of the costs to extend the stand. Without that, the cost to fund it will inevitably have to come at the expense of investing in another part of the club.

 

[blade too long]

Take out the vat and it’s £5m. £5m a season of selling 15000 extra tickets every home game.

Out of that, even if achieved, the club has to make capital and interest payments. Who knows what’s left?

A bit of profit and that'd does not include the extra shirt sales shop incomes bar sales corporate

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

Do Brentford have a bottomless pit of cash? Is that how they’ve managed to build a new stadium?

What about Spurs? How have they managed to spend £1 billion on a stadium?

I’ve never said it’s easy or that we’re sitting on a pile of cash to spend on the Lane. My point is that it’s possible for a club like ours to have a better stadium, the proof being that smaller clubs than us have better stadiums.

If you are happy for the club to carry that level of debt, and are confident we'll be a prem club for the next 20 odd years to service that debt.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Is it just me that doesn't agree with the comments that 'the kop needs urgent development'?

I take issue with two bits of it

1. Needs. Surely people mean they want it to be redeveloped. They'd like nicer seating, more seating, less restricted views, better toilets, few steps etc? But does it really 'need' redeveloping? Need means there are significant consequences if we don't redevelop it and those consequences outweigh not redeveloping?

2. Urgent. Why? Why does the redevelopment need doing urgently?

More than happy to be slated and fully expect the comments of 'we wouldn't have these standing issues if x was done' and 'how can you say it doesn't need doing when we have tickets off sale because of issues' etc, but then I ask you.....so what? Once people start standing/sitting where their ticket is, we go back to normal....all tickets on sale.

I've been in old/middle-aged/new stadiums, and the kop isn't great, but to be honest I love the old shithole. But that's not my point. I just wonder why it 'needs doing urgently'

Urgent!…you sure?