CONFIRMED Jordan Hallam joins Scunthorpe

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Not a knock on wilder by any stretch but you can see he likes an experienced squad and doesn’t have much time or inclination to drop acadamy kids in. The vast majority of the side is 25plus and in their primes.

And any youth players are going to have to be of a maguire / walker / brooks calibre to get into the side - which I suppose is as it should be.

That said I do always enjoy the academy players - think there is something special about seeing someone come through the ranks.
 
Joshp said:
If Wilder doesn't think they'll be good enough for the top end of the Champ and pushing for the Prem, then I trust his judgement, as long as the club is protected in buybacks/sell-on fees that's all that matters.
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What happened to good old fashioned transfer fees though?
I can’t believe that all of these kids are currently worthless.
 
In the last few seasons our academy has been pointless which I don’t like to see, surely we have players in our youth setup who could command fees otherwise what is the point when we certainly don’t play any of them due to the circumstances of our promotion challenge?

Don’t mention Brooks either as he was through Man City’s development.
 
Bladeinleeds said:
Not a knock on wilder by any stretch but you can see he likes an experienced squad and doesn’t have much time or inclination to drop acadamy kids in. The vast majority of the side is 25plus and in their primes.

And any youth players are going to have to be of a maguire / walker / brooks calibre to get into the side - which I suppose is as it should be.

That said I do always enjoy the academy players - think there is something special about seeing someone come through the ranks.
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Maguire and Walker were before Wilder's time so there is no guarantee they wouldn't have left on a similar arrangement to Semple before they were given much of a chance, and Brooks was off to Chesterfield before being player of the tournament in an international tournament. Up to then he had hardly played for the first team when he would almost certainly have been more than capable of playing more in League One and even after wasn't a regular starter, yet is now a regular in the Premiership, and almost certainly has played more games than he would have if he was still here.

Not knocking Wilder, he has his plans and thoughts and is obviously doing a brilliant job so not going to criticise him but does seem overly cautious on trying younger players and prefers older, proven players and buying ones that are underated.

I am all for allowing players out on loan, but if they then get good reviews we should at least look at them. I just hope we have good sell on clauses, but even if we do, the level they are about to play at they will never command huge fees.
 
sheepbridge said:
Maguire and Walker were before Wilder's time so there is no guarantee they wouldn't have left on a similar arrangement to Semple before they were given much of a chance, and Brooks was off to Chesterfield before being player of the tournament in an international tournament. Up to then he had hardly played for the first team when he would almost certainly have been more than capable of playing more in League One and even after wasn't a regular starter, yet is now a regular in the Premiership, and almost certainly has played more games than he would have if he was still here.

Not knocking Wilder, he has his plans and thoughts and is obviously doing a brilliant job so not going to criticise him but does seem overly cautious on trying younger players and prefers older, proven players and buying ones that are underated.

I am all for allowing players out on loan, but if they then get good reviews we should at least look at them. I just hope we have good sell on clauses, but even if we do, the level they are about to play at they will never command huge fees.
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You've cited one player who is doing well. Who else do you add to that list?

You appear to use Brooks as an example of how not to do things, yet he's the only one who's left the club and gone on to greater things, so what exactly is your point? Surely Wilder has found a way of achieving success. or isn't this good enough for you?
 
sheepbridge said:
Up to then he had hardly played for the first team when he would almost certainly have been more than capable of playing more in League One
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But we had Matty Done, James Hanson and Jay O'Shea, so there was no room for him.
 
EddieColquhoun said:
Sounds like he's off:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p06yz2c2

Cue "academy blockers" meltdown.
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Listen to Wilders interview he's quite candid about the decision s he

Has to make regarding these young players.They need regular first team football and this gives them the opportunity to forge a career.
The clubs they are going to will give them the chance we can't at this stage.
The deals will be loaded with add ons, by letting them go for free we have it seems got a good buy back clause if they really come on.
We gotKean Bryan on a similar deal.
Sure Wilder knows what he's doing,We are after being in the premier League next season,would these players be able to step up?,
Possibly in the future but not in the short team.
 
I was expecting to see Hallam make an appearance for us. One of the top scorers in the U23s. Different standard of course. Did he actually say he was going ?
 
Perhaps we should be using Brooks as our model going forward.

What's the point in having hundreds of kids coming through the age groups, when as said, maybe one or two every 5 years are even potentially good enough for the first team. Especially now that really promising youngsters can be picked off by the elite clubs for a pittance.

Man City, Chelsea, etc. hoard youngsters and then discard most of them, many of whom will probably be way better than anything we have. Perhaps the model going forward is to reduce our academy to just say 16+ and only have talented youngsters discarded from other clubs. Would probably save money on running costs and might even earn more in transfers etc. rather than having lots of kids who realistically will never make it or earn the club any money.
 
Don’t disagree sheepbridge but I think it’s more of the community aspect of it that keeps it going. Plus we are producing professional footballers to be fair albeit the majority are heading into the lower leagues. It’ll be interesting to see how the current crop that we have released/sold get on.

Perhaps if we were sitting 12th, safe from the the drop but not realistically pushing the top 6, we might have tested a couple of them. In hindsight, I’d have liked us to have tried Norrington-Davis at LWB rather than waste money on Johnson, some you win some you lose I guess.
 

Rob86 said:
Don’t disagree sheepbridge but I think it’s more of the community aspect of it that keeps it going. Plus we are producing professional footballers to be fair albeit the majority are heading into the lower leagues. It’ll be interesting to see how the current crop that we have released/sold get on.

Perhaps if we were sitting 12th, safe from the the drop but not realistically pushing the top 6, we might have tested a couple of them. In hindsight, I’d have liked us to have tried Norrington-Davis at LWB rather than waste money on Johnson, some you win some you lose I guess.
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I think Norrington Davis &Tyler Smith are in Wilder future plans,Regan Slater on loan at Carlisle is another one that will probably be in his plans
 
Rob86 said:
Don’t disagree sheepbridge but I think it’s more of the community aspect of it that keeps it going. Plus we are producing professional footballers to be fair albeit the majority are heading into the lower leagues. It’ll be interesting to see how the current crop that we have released/sold get on.

Perhaps if we were sitting 12th, safe from the the drop but not realistically pushing the top 6, we might have tested a couple of them. In hindsight, I’d have liked us to have tried Norrington-Davis at LWB rather than waste money on Johnson, some you win some you lose I guess.
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To be fair, I'd prefer you to get a run at LWB than wasting money on Johnson. Not giving kids a go because it's a step above them is one thing, but bringing in turgid dross that doesn't make any attempt to act like a footballer is much worse.

Some young players thrive when they get a chance, Harry Kane was pretty ordinary in his loan spells to lower divisions. Wilder would have had him out the door without ever playing for the first team as he prefers to pad out the squad with his ageing journeymen that he knows he'll get a 6/10 performance from most weeks.

Matt Lowton was a mostly average League 1 player, but still went on to play in the Premier League because he got a chance.
 
It's just that the bar for success is higher.

Jordan Hallam, 20, did ok at Chesterfield in the conference.

Callum Senple, did well in the Scottish Championship. Picked up by another Scottish Championship team.

Harvey Gilmore, 20, did well but a little in and out at Tranmere in League Two.

Tyler Smith, 20, 12 goals this year in 24 matches on loan including 2 from the bench at League One level

David Brooks, 21, excellent first season in Championship, sold for 11m+, now being linked with 40m moves to Man U.

These lads might be nice, tidy U23 players but they need to show to have outgrown that at an early enough point to make an impact on men's football.

Chris is being kind. Fees, if any will be minimal in these cases but it allows a healthy sell on and buy back clause if they go now. Released in the summer and you get to insert neither of those.

Will all three have a pro career? Probably. Will they be good enough to be in the squad in the next 2-3 years of a team pushing for PL or at PL level? Not so sure.

Also, better for the players too, to avoid the mad scramble in the summer looking for a club. In each of the lad's cases the loan moves have helped them find something. Better exposure that being just in the U23s and then looking for a team to pick you up.
 
Ricky said:
But we had Matty Done, James Hanson and Jay O'Shea, so there was no room for him.
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All three played a significant role in getting us out of a division we’d been stuck in for 5 seasons.

wizadry said:
In the last few seasons our academy has been pointless which I don’t like to see, surely we have players in our youth setup who could command fees otherwise what is the point when we certainly don’t play any of them due to the circumstances of our promotion challenge?

Don’t mention Brooks either as he was through Man City’s development.
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Not sure why you would discard Brooks. The poaching of unwanted players from other academies is part of our own strategy that has contributed towards our success. We made huge money on David Brooks by following that strategy, and also (going back some years) had first team players such as Michael Tonge and Phil Jagielka playing a large amount of first team games for us via other teams’ academies.

Naughton, Walker, Maguire, Slew, Brooks - have all been a success for us in different ways. For every one of them there’s probably 10 that don’t make it and a few that make it at a low level. I’m pretty sure the academy funds itself through these sorts of deals.
 
Ricky said:
But we had Matty Done, James Hanson and Jay O'Shea, so there was no room for him.
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Christ Ricky, your posts are getting more monotonous each day.

We got 100 points and finally got going, in part thanks to the 3 players above, yet you're complaining we didn't play a untried youngster.
 
Ginger Gnome said:
To be fair, I'd prefer you to get a run at LWB than wasting money on Johnson. Not giving kids a go because it's a step above them is one thing, but bringing in turgid dross that doesn't make any attempt to act like a footballer is much worse.
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You're talking absoloute bollocks mate.
 
Herein lies the problem for Utd's academy players - the more the first team improves and the higher up the divisions they go, the more difficult it will be for them to break through and only exceptional ones will stand any chance whatsoever. Take for example Louis Reed - he was given plenty of opportunities in & around the first team whilst the club floundered in L1 but he'd have absolutely no chance were he coming through now.

Whilst some will obviously take this (& any) opportunity to criticise the club (because things are going so badly at the moment aren't they?!?!) I think the model it has adopted of letting players go on deals that will benefit the club should they be successful (i.e. the Bryan deal model) is an excellent one. Why would Utd keep them if they have no chance of making it apart possibly to provide a team around those who may?
 
sheepbridge said:
Perhaps we should be using Brooks as our model going forward.

What's the point in having hundreds of kids coming through the age groups, when as said, maybe one or two every 5 years are even potentially good enough for the first team. Especially now that really promising youngsters can be picked off by the elite clubs for a pittance.

Man City, Chelsea, etc. hoard youngsters and then discard most of them, many of whom will probably be way better than anything we have. Perhaps the model going forward is to reduce our academy to just say 16+ and only have talented youngsters discarded from other clubs. Would probably save money on running costs and might even earn more in transfers etc. rather than having lots of kids who realistically will never make it or earn the club any money.
Click to expand...

It's part of football; the ones that don't make it at elite Premier League clubs end up at Championship clubs (David Brooks) and the ones that then don't make it at Championship clubs get picked up by lower league (CJ Hamilton).
And as Rob86 says, we're giving back to the community, giving kids a chance to play football and fall in love with our football club.
 
wizadry said:
Don’t mention Brooks either as he was through Man City’s development.
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Why not? He was in our academy for a few years. One of the coaches said that when he came he wouldn't track back.
To suggest the club doesn't deserve any credit for the development of Brooks over 4 years is ridiculous.
 
Ginger Gnome said:
To be fair, I'd prefer you to get a run at LWB than wasting money on Johnson. Not giving kids a go because it's a step above them is one thing, but bringing in turgid dross that doesn't make any attempt to act like a footballer is much worse.
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Since he gave the ball away at Rotherham, a few on the forum have scapegoated him.
After he played the full game v Birmingham the consensus was he was a good player.
 
The further SUFC climb up the pecking order in the football league pyramid the more difficult it becomes for these youngsters to break through into our set up. Good luck to them as they try and carve out a career in football at whatever level they find themselves at.
 

The lad might have potential but what he needs right now is to be at a place where he gets first team football to give him the best chance of making it in the game (which statistically speaking for a youngster is slim). We can't offer that right now without taking a huge risk to our chances of promotion.

If a team comes and offers him first team football while at the same time for us are willing to pay his wages, offer us a good sell on, give us a cheap buy back clause and a transfer fee for the here and now I'd say that is pretty sensible business on our part.

People on here might slate these kind of deals but if someone like Hallam turns into a goal machine in a few years time and we're able to snaffle him back up for peanuts while other clubs are offering millions to get him then they’ll quickly change their tune.
 
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