Jim Phipps summed up our current predicament perfectly...

[pommpey]

The thing that is really annoying me with Clough at the moment is he seems to think his tenure so far has been a success and he is doing a good job, now that is either arrogance of the highest order or he is being told he is doing a good job by those above him

No. He is expected to give an outward image of the club battling its way toward an eventual promotion, with the team gelled and motivated, the manager firmly in charge and the board fully backing the effort.

In reality, however ...

pommpey

 

[Dkc]

W

Only one other manager has managed not to get us promoted out of this league at the first attempt, (Harry Haslam), so yes I would consider it failure if Clough did not get us up this year.

Is that correct?

 

[Grappler]

Well a look at their respective records shows a very close similarity between Clough's and Wilson's record. With six matches to go until Clough equals Wilson's record in terms of the number of games in charge he would have to win all six to exactly equal his win record. Of course if he did we'd be promoted and everyone would be happy!

Wilson P 106 W 55 D 20 L 31 Win % 51.89
Clough P 100 W 49 D 27 L 24 Win % 49.00

What appears to upset everyone is Clough's approach where consistently United get a lead in games then hang on hoping to defend it. Now I appreciate that it is the players on the pitch not Clough but it would appear this has happened so consistently this season that one starts to question that this state of affairs is just the players fault.

If we fail yet again to either qualify for the play offs (possible though unlikely unless we lose to Orient) or win them we'll be into a fifth season in this league and the league performances this season of all seasons appears to give the perception that we simply aren't good enough. Given the level of investment or rather funds made available sadly I would say that if promotion is not secured then that is failure.

Only one other manager has managed not to get us promoted out of this league at the first attempt, (Harry Haslam), so yes I would consider it failure if Clough did not get us up this year. We're Sheffield United and we should as a club be better than this.

"...Only one other manager has managed not to get us promoted out of this league at the first attempt, (Harry Haslam),..."

Surely Danny Wilson as well, due to Evans going to prison, etc?

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Is that correct?

"...Only one other manager has managed not to get us promoted out of this league at the first attempt, (Harry Haslam),..."

Surely Danny Wilson as well, due to Evans going to prison, etc?

and Porterfield and Weir.

 

[blade too long]

and morgan

 

[Greenwich Blade]

and Porterfield and Weir.

In fact, only Bassett has done it.

 

[Silent Blade]

"...Only one other manager has managed not to get us promoted out of this league at the first attempt, (Harry Haslam),..."

Surely Danny Wilson as well, due to Evans going to prison, etc?

Reg Freeman was appointed our manager in summer 1952. In April 1953 we got promotion to the 1st division as champions of the 2nd division

 

[raul]

regarding cloughs tenure at derby , he took over a club struggling in relegation zone
and growing massive debys , around 37m when he took over

his job description was to cut the wage bill over 3 years from



lets not forget wilson inherited championship players ,
clough inherited a bag of bollocks, think if clough had had Ched we might be slightly higher
sTARTING 11 v brentford 1st home game

• 1 Simonsen
• 2 Lowton
• 15 Collins
• 19 Maguire
• 3 Jean-Francois
• 7 Mendez-Laing
  
• 4 Montgomery
• 27 McDonald
• 28 Quinn
• 12 Slew
  
  
• 17 Cresswell .. bit better than what clough started with

Yeah I remember all your Wilson Out posts.

 

[Davie Blade]

so your adding several kids weve signed in that original 11 giving a very sewed look at it
if you want it balanced add the 6 under 21 players bristol city signed

compare like with like ,

http://www1.skysports.com/football/sheffield-united-transfers

thats 17 in all season 18 out and 3 of those in are among those
out on loan

Nothing to say on the substantive point about losing 3 players was a gap too far and that Bristol lost more.
Noted.

 

[Davie Blade]

You forgot to mention - Clough was forced to sell many of Derby's most rated players. He was told by the board to encourage a policy where the team depended on youth development. So please refrain from making statements that are inaccurate. Factually incorrect, or perhaps I should rephrase, no facts at all. Just a damning statement that collapses upon examination.

I stand 100% behind the statement I made,
NC presided over one of the worst 5 years spells in Derby's long history.
This is a FACT, based upon historic League positions.

Even Harry Storer who was in charge for 7years during their third division days took them to 7th in the second division, which trumps Clough's best place finish which was a lofty 10th! (That was the one and only time they finished in the upper half of the table under his stewardship)

The evidence is crystal clear and irrefutable, ALL their league positions are here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Derby_County_F.C._seasons.

Derby have a long and proud history of First tier status and Upper second tier, as the link shows.
I feel sorry for them that their third division escapade coincided with 3rd Division North and South and even though they were the runners up, they weren't promoted; only the respective champs went up then.

Not a sinew of evidence to contradict mine, just a rant.

No wonder WalthamstowBlade owned you.

 

[BladeFisher]

regarding cloughs tenure at derby , he took over a club struggling in relegation zone
and growing massive debys , around 37m when he took over

his job description was to cut the wage bill over 3 years from



lets not forget wilson inherited championship players ,
clough inherited a bag of bollocks, think if clough had had Ched we might be slightly higher
sTARTING 11 v brentford 1st home game

• 1 Simonsen
• 2 Lowton
• 15 Collins
• 19 Maguire
• 3 Jean-Francois
• 7 Mendez-Laing
  
• 4 Montgomery
• 27 McDonald
• 28 Quinn
• 12 Slew
  
  
• 17 Cresswell .. bit better than what clough started with

Aye, appreciate that but as human nature goes, surely the thing that sticks is that this is the fourth consecutive season in Division 3.

 

[BladeFisher]

"...Only one other manager has managed not to get us promoted out of this league at the first attempt, (Harry Haslam),..."

Surely Danny Wilson as well, due to Evans going to prison, etc?

Yes, I didn't put it very well what I meant to add was prior to our last relegation to this tier.

 

[itsinyerblood]

I stand 100% behind the statement I made,
NC presided over one of the worst 5 years spells in Derby's long history.
This is a FACT, based upon historic League positions.

Even Harry Storer who was in charge for 7years during their third division days took them to 7th in the second division, which trumps Clough's best place finish which was a lofty 10th! (That was the one and only time they finished in the upper half of the table under his stewardship)

The evidence is crystal clear and irrefutable, ALL their league positions are here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Derby_County_F.C._seasons.

Derby have a long and proud history of First tier status and Upper second tier, as the link shows.
I feel sorry for them that their third division escapade coincided with 3rd Division North and South and even though they were the runners up, they weren't promoted; only the respective champs went up then.

Not a sinew of evidence to contradict mine, just a rant.

No wonder WalthamstowBlade owned you.

Oh dear, another who chooses to interpret selectively.

You can stand by whatever you wish, it doesn't change the fact that Clough was ordered to cut costs, rely on youth players, and not spend, period. The fact that you chose not to include this reveals that you attempted, incorrectly of course, to infer that all was hunky dory at Derby during this period, and that Clough had a perfectly clean slate from which to work from.

As for being owned, neither yourself or whatsisname could afford me. Next time, when you attempt to paint a scene, make sure that the underlying facts are represented, otherwise your point is riddled with holes. When you refer to 'evidence' being irrefutable, if it's presented partially it doesn't count for much. Now that is irrefutable.

 

[blade too long]

wilson got us up till ched ruined it

Aye, appreciate that but as human nature goes, surely the thing that sticks is that this is the fourth consecutive season in Division 3.

and that is cloughs fault because------

 

[Davie Blade]

Oh dear, another who chooses to interpret selectively.

You can stand by whatever you wish, it doesn't change the fact that Clough was ordered to cut costs, rely on youth players, and not spend, period. The fact that you chose not to include this reveals that you attempted, incorrectly of course, to infer that all was hunky dory at Derby during this period, and that Clough had a perfectly clean slate from which to work from.

As for being owned, neither yourself or whatsisname could afford me. Next time, when you attempt to paint a scene, make sure that the underlying facts are represented, otherwise your point is riddled with holes. When you refer to 'evidence' being irrefutable, if it's presented partially it doesn't count for much. Now that is irrefutable.

You've learnt nothing when WalthamstowBlade tried to educate you.
.
Tiresome

Not a sinew of evidence to contradict my statement, just a pathetic side show rant.

Goodbye.

 

[itsinyerblood]

You've learnt nothing when WalthamstowBlade tried to educate you.
.
Tiresome

Not a sinew of evidence to contradict my statement, just a pathetic side show rant.

Goodbye.

Do stop this reliance on someone else to argue your case. Or is it that you have a thing for Walthy?

As for your interpretation of what a rant constitutes, I gave a considered presentation of the facts that supported Clough's management of Derby, if you choose to call that a rant it doesn't mean you're correct.

The fact that you made a general statement that wasn't backed up by the evidence that is at the root of this is what I'm highlighting. It's ok to say that Derby held this or that league position, but underlying this were the constraints that dictated Clough's management of Derby. If a manager has his wrists tied it shouldn't be a surprise that success doesn't follow. According to your interpretation, you rely on league position alone as a validation of your point of view. According to my response, the financial constraints I mentioned were contributory factors in Derby's stagnancy. The fact that you chose not to mention this is what I responded to.

By adding those facts I fleshed out your limited appraisal of Clough's management at Derby. It's a bit like an obituary that reads - 'He lived, he died'. As a statement it's limited and doesn't inform about the life that was lived. Not dissimilar to those league positions that excluded the reasons that would have helped explain why Clough was restricted to a youth policy, sales, and loans. These are the facts that Clough was forced to utilise during his management of Derby.

 

[Large Mendonca]

Can we have another section for "Inter-forum member issues" ?

 

[Latters]

Oh, hello everyone. Is this the thread where you argue with other posters in a repetitive manner? Right, SwissBlade, i disagree with you that Kieran Wallace has looked good so far. Let's go!

 

[HillmortonBlade]

Excellent, without wanting an argument in a repetitive manner, but does any one else agree with me that the form of our team is entirely down to the fans? Or the team? Or the Gods of Football?

 

[itsinyerblood]

Excellent, without wanting an argument in a repetitive manner, but does any one else agree with me that the form of our team is entirely down to the fans? Or the team? Or the Gods of Football?

I think you mean Gods HillmortonBlade.....oops, sorry, in some people's eyes the fans are Gods and must always be deferred to

 

[itsinyerblood]

Oh, hello everyone. Is this the thread where you argue with other posters in a repetitive manner? Right, SwissBlade, i disagree with you that Kieran Wallace has looked good so far. Let's go!

You've obviously missed one of Darren and Walthy's 'War & Peace' volumes.

 

[HillmortonBlade]

I think you mean Gods HillmortonBlade.....oops, sorry, in some people's eyes the fans are Gods and must always be deferred to

That should keep it going... IIYB

 

[BushBlade]

Yes, I didn't put it very well what I meant to add was prior to our last relegation to this tier.

Porterfield?

 

[alcoblade]

You've obviously missed one of Darren and Walthy's 'War & Peace' volumes.

He hasn't got to the end of one of your own posts yet, give him chance.



UTB

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

Personally, I think that one of the biggest things JP and the Prince can learn from this season is not pay too much attention to the who the fans want to sign. Clough undoubtedly wanted to sign Brayford but there is also no doubt that the majority of fans were mentioning his name as someone to sign time and time again. I think that probably swung the decision to allow Cough to blow most of his budget on him because it would appease the majority of supporters at a time when things were not all sweetness and light. Going forward the manager (whoever it is) generally has to be backed whenever possible but it should be based on a balanced argument which shows to the board how a specific player is going to have the impact the transfer fee should demand. As supporters we all want to see big name players signed no matter the cost as we can then enjoy watching them entertain us but, unfortunately, the board have to manage the club and the budget and have to accept (as do we) that they can't keep us all happy all of the time.

Do you seriously think that?

You don't do you?

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Do you seriously think that?

You don't do you?

Him Behind You has got it a little bit wrong , although i know were he is coming from . Clough does not and never will listen , or be swayed by the fans , because he would finish up in a right pickle . He signed Brayford for his qualities , of what the bloke can bring to the club , both on and off the field . Plus we still have yet to see the best of Brayford , and IMO is worth every penny , whatever we paid for him.

If Clough listened to the fans , we would be winning or losing 5-2 every week and be mid table . The name of the game is to win or draw more than you lose , take into account 3 points for a win ). Winning makes everyone satisfied . What has thrown the spanner in the works is this ongoing CB debacle . You need players of the Brayford calibre to get out of leagues or become stabilised in one ( championship).

UTB

 

[super_pig]

You've obviously missed one of Darren and Walthy's 'War & Peace' volumes.

i rather enjoyed them actually

 

[itsinyerblood]

i rather enjoyed them actually

Know what you mean SP, it's just that sometimes it can seem like a tennis match with no end in sight.

 

[him behind you]

Do you seriously think that?

You don't do you?

Not saying I seriously believe it but equally I wouldn't discount it.

Since JP came in, there have been a few things they've done which have reflected the voice of the fans (off the top of my head Adidas shirts / Ched). Whilst not massive things, they have been things which have initially made fans happy (in Ched's case the noisier pro Ched fans initially) so do you not think it feasible that they may have allowed NC to spend so much on Brayford because they knew they would get very little backlash from, again, most of the noisy fans?

 

[BushBlade]

Not saying I seriously believe it but equally I wouldn't discount it.

Since JP came in, there have been a few things they've done which have reflected the voice of the fans (off the top of my head Adidas shirts / Ched). Whilst not massive things, they have been things which have initially made fans happy (in Ched's case the noisier pro Ched fans initially) so do you not think it feasible that they may have allowed NC to spend so much on Brayford because they knew they would get very little backlash from, again, most of the noisy fans?

I can't help but be reminded of the Warnock documentary when he's having a meeting with the board and KM is talking about 'bums on seats signings'.