Is Blackwell doing a remarkable job?

[bladeinlondon]

he is poor with the media and often looks a knob and makes me wince; tactically he is poor - no plan B. We have been playing better football of late but I rather suspect that may be down to gary Speed. however he has made 2 inspired signings - Ward and Williamson who may be enough to get us up. i agree most of the front runners in the Championship are cack so lets have our traditional good run from now to the end of the season please. UTB

 

[Pinchy]

I think overall the job he has done is reasonable however I think there are many managers that would have been able to achieve more with the resources he's had whilst getting better performances and pleasing more fans.

I was happy with him (not overjoyed but happy) when signed initially on the basis that he knew our club, our ethos, the fan base and many players and I felt that he could make a more immediate impact than many other choices we could have made. At the time I felt this was an important consideration because we were on a slide and without results changing quickly there was a real threat of being pulled into a relegation battle, to get relegated for the second year running and the wage bill we had would have been a disaster.

He came in and played some entertaining, attacking and effective football. As has been mentioned we took the game to most teams we played and I think he took the approach that he didn't have much to lose. Realistically it was much more likely that a change at the helm from the woeful Robson would help us improve but we were unlikely to get promoted without a great set of results - a set of results you'd find very hard to achieve without trying to be dominant in games. I think the performances of Michael Tonge and David Cotterill in particular amongst others were key to us doing as well as we did in those few months.

He was then offered a contract after us nearly making the playoffs, again although I wouldn't say I was ecstatic I was fairly happy with this as at this point I think he more than deserved the chance and we could go on to build on those early months. There was undoubtedly a transformation in his mind over those summer months in terms of how he would approach games both in tactics and the way we'd play. The following season I believe we could have got more out of but we finished 3rd and on 80 pts with one of the best goal differences in the league by some way.

I do have qualms however with us offering Blackwell a new extended contract in December 2008 - this just didn't seem necessary coming only a short few months after taking the job given that we were 6th at the time, hardly setting the league on fire, at a time when players were being told they couldn't discuss a contract until the summer and without any other apparent interest in him from elsewhere. Let's not forget some of our close competitors throughout the 2008 -2009 season were teams like palace, preston, cardiff, burnley and QPR - I'd say that at the time ours was by far the better squad yet we remained within a few points of these teams for most of the season. It was only in the last 10 weeks of the season that we really stepped above the group of challengers for the playoffs and looked like we could play with the top two.

Overall I don't think you can knock his away performances as much as people have on this thread for last season at least - we produced a great away record going 15 games unbeaten whilst winning 9 of these. That's a cracking record no matter how we played and I don't think you can get it from being negative. The problem for Blackwell in that season for me is undoubtedly our home performances and results. They're the one's that get watched by 25,000 and in the main the ones that will get watched by the floating fans. Most of the 2008 - 09 season (and again this year) we've had to watch some pretty dismal football along with the realisation that Bramall Lane was certainly no longer a fortress by any means. Many teams came to the Lane and outplayed us and we let more than we should have walk away with points in my view:

Losses

Reading 0-2
Wolves 1-3
Burnley 2-3
Doncaster 0-1
Pigs 1-2

For these although I can accept Wolves as they walked the league (although weren't a million times better than us). I was disappointed to lose to burnley even though they got promoted at the end of the year and Reading, very unhappy to lose to Doncaster and distraught at losing to the unclean.

Draws:

Cardiff City 0-0
Coventry City 1-1
Southampton 0-0
Palace 2-2
Blackpool 2-2
Forest 0-0

For me we should be looking to beat all of these teams at home and although I can accept you can't always beat those you'd expect to I believe drawing against all 6 to be unsatisfactory. More than the points it is often the emotional influence that these results affects the most and I feel they along with this years continuation have helped to make the Lane a quieter and more impatient place.

Preston away and to some extent at home at the end of the season gave us a glimpse of the kind of performances we were capable of putting in with the resources we had but it is with regret I look back and see these as exceptions to the norm in the last 18 months with Blackwell in charge. On the whole it hasn't been pleasant and it's been even more frustrating knowing that our players are capable of more without seeing enough improvement over time to feel that we'll get there.

Onto this year and I think we've been getting average results along with a terrible run of results where we went 8 games without a win, losing 5 of those and conceding 19 goals. Yes this was aligned with a period where we saw a high number of injuries yet we still had a decent squad left to put out at this level and throughout this time there have been players like little and reid that Blackwell signed yet chose not to play throughout this period. I also can't agree with us not being able to fill a bench despite having a squad of around 25 first teamers and an entire academy squad to choose from. Also during this time we let players leave like cotterill and treacy which seemed very odd.

Results have picked up a little recently and there are signs that we can play better but I'm far from convinced that Blackwell could take us up, he's not good enough to take either of the top two positions and I struggle to see United getting promoted any time soon via the playoffs, especially more so with his own personal record and performances in big playoff games to date. Should we go up I don't think he's the man to keep us up or take us to another level either. I have built this opinion from over the last 2 years of Blackwell as a manager, it is unlikely to change drastically unless he either gets us looking like a decent team again and playing well or gets us out of this division.

I think it's important when considering the job he's done for us to consider his resources and although reducing he has had a relatively large wage bill available throughout his stay when compared alongside other teams at this level. Although he's inevitably had to let good players go after not bouncing back I still feel he's had the resources to shape a decent side able to compete with the big boys in this division. My suspicions are that he has agreed transfer deals in potentially worth £6m - £7m which at this level is a fairly substantial whack, considering there are teams like swansea, leicester, blackpool, doncaster, bristol, watford and palace near us in the table I think many fans are right in feeling we could ask for more, especially when these teams are on the whole watching better stuff than us.

I also think Blackwell made a foolish mistake to start the season with only three centre backs given that bromby was poor but then to let him leave without replacing him left us with only 2, I therefore hold no regard for his later excuses when it came to struggling with injury in this position. He chose to invest most of his transfer budget since being here on Henderson - a player with a poor track record for injuries and suspensions and one you could almost guarantee missing for 5 -10 games a season) and ched evans who he has struggled to settle into a working role whilst also signing players he's then later decided either aren't capable or worthy of an opportunity. These were decisions made and he should have lived with them when he ran into trouble rather than trying to make excuses every time he was asked a question about us, I think that didn't help unite the fans towards the backing to get out of the slump earlier but added to any apathy out there.

On the whole I think he's done an average job and will probably continue doing so, I hope if he stays with us he achieves more but I also aspire for more from United and feel we could do better with someone else in charge, I'd like to see someone come in and change the way we play and would be happy to give them time to do so. Seen as that isn't likely to happen unless we do suddenly get an investment of some kind then we're going to have to hope we continue to pick up like we have done recently only I hope this year we do it a bit earlier and give ourselves a real chance. I fear mediocrity, mid table and another two or three years of progressively becoming more average and pray to the good lord Zeus that we break from the disappointment that may bring.

:fishy:

I hadn't realised Dostoevsky was a Blade!

 

[Deleted member 1486]

I hadn't realised Dostoevsky was a Blade!

More War and Peace (Tolstoy) than Crime and Punishment I'd have thunk? :thumbup:

 

[grafikhaus]

Good thread, this.

My thoughts on managers are well documented. The majority are average and stay in a job by the fact that 'you win some, you lose some'.

They're usually good at self-publicity. This is natural as most are solid ex-pros who have suddenly become millionaires, so of course they're going to fight their corner.

KB has unboubtedly ridden the 'beset by injuries' thing. However the default setting with him to any injury is 'out for 3 months' (Hendo, Williamson, Ward, Treacy) only for them to reappear much sooner. Likewise, Laws got away with his 'lack of funds' excuse for long enough, when the truth is that nearly every team at this level have exactly the same problems. The one time he had some money, he threw it away on Jeffers.

I think the big problem with a lot of Blades is the 'poor little me' syndrome - we think that all the travesties and disappointments associated with supporting a football team are ours and ours alone.

But of course they're not. From the very highest (Man. U being financially buggered by the Glazers), to Liverpool (clueless manager, team full of under-achievers) right down to our friends at S6 (permanent crisis on and off the field) the game is beginning to unwind. We should count our blessings that Kevin McC has put us in a solid financial position, the ground is brilliant (what short memories some fans have!), every season sees us involved in some way and Blackwell, while not being the best, is certainly not the worst.

A guy who sits near me is great at plucking the names of whoever happens to be 'flavour of the month' out of thin air and saying 'He'd be a better manager.' (He'll be at it again later today).

Among such luminaries have been Boothroyd (yeah, look at him now), George Burley (ditto), Billy Davies eek etc. etc. In other words, people who have had a good/lucky streak and will eventually sink back to their true level. Then we have Dario Gradi, Dave Penny and O'Driscoll who operate with low crowds and lower expectations. He also has mentioned Irvine (didn't Preston just miss him v. Colchester the other week) and the 'new wave' of great managers' sons, Ferguson and Clough - poor, poor managers.

So in answer to this thread, I think KB has done a good (not remarkable) job given the pressures 'behind the scenes' that we can only guess at.

If we got rid, the new bloke (by no means certain to improve things) would 'bring his own staff in' and we can write another season off.

So let's consider that the grass is not always greener - a good example today is 'dead man walking' Strachan.

 

[alcoblade]

*FB lights fuse and legs it*

I share those feelings Bob. I don't really connect with Blackie as a personality, the tactics can be questioned, but bearing in mind how we've had to dodge and dive on squad., I can't imagine how he or frankly anyone else could have done any better. He certainly deserves more respect than he is afforded by many posters.

Similar example being the piggy fans reaction to the news that Brian Laws was actually the top rated manager in the CCC taking resources into account.

Its a very human trait to think about greener grass, but as Charlton fans found out with Curbishley, sometimes they really have 'taken the club as far as they can'...

Though I'm a knocker, I have to agree with this. He's managed under a very difficult period of reducing costs, and has been hampered with injuries along the way. He's partly contributed to that, and at this point it looks very much like he's squandered £3M o one player who looks guff. But overall, it can't be argued that his football is at not least effective, given the circumstances.

In years gone by I'd be an avid supporter. But the McCabe bubble has popped, it's dawned on me that we probably aren't destined for great things, so I'd like some entertainment along the way - ie playing some football that's pleasing to watch. This is where Blackwell fails, for me. But overall, he does deserve a good bit of credit.

UTB

 

[tomtheblade]

A guy who sits near me is great at plucking the names of whoever happens to be 'flavour of the month' out of thin air and saying 'He'd be a better manager.' (He'll be at it again later today).

Among such luminaries have been Boothroyd (yeah, look at him now), George Burley (ditto), Billy Davies eek etc. etc. In other words, people who have had a good/lucky streak and will eventually sink back to their true level. Then we have Dario Gradi, Dave Penny and O'Driscoll who operate with low crowds and lower expectations. He also has mentioned Irvine (didn't Preston just miss him v. Colchester the other week) and the 'new wave' of great managers' sons, Ferguson and Clough - poor, poor managers.

Another thing to remember is that football managing is not an exact science. Every club has its own unique conditions, problems and advantages, so i think success is down to all the variables fitting together as much as anything else. Of course this is also very hard to foresee when hiring a manager.
True, the best managers will do well no matter the circumstances, but these managers tend to rise quickly and so are not often found in the Championship.

The ones that are left are very 'much of a muchness', in that they will generally keep a club rumbling on at its current level, doing better at some times, doing worse at others. They're doing a good job, and they're good managers- because if they weren't the club would start falling pretty rapidly. But at the same time they're unable to push the club past the point where it is effectively running to stay still.

My point is basically that the Championship, although not stuffed with quality, is a very tough league, in that all the clubs within are treading water between the big time and going under, and in general the levels of the managers reflect this.

 

[Micalijo]

Some tremendous threads covering all points of view.

Pretty obvious what I'm going to say but the bloke is a truly awful manager. His record in the really big games is what matters and he is totally out of his depth at our club, in my opinion. Obnoxious, arrogant, embarrassing, always contradicting himself and it sickens me he is in charge at a time when we still have more than enough to be challenging right at the top of the division - not scrabbling around in 8th to 10th.

 

[dkc Blade]

Let him go at the end of that with a big thank you and bring in a young and talented manager .

Why a young manager? Isn't that a bit age-ist? The most successful manager in British football, (Fergie) is in his late 60's.

 

[Linz]

...not scrabbling around in 8th to 10th.

Surely he's exceeding your expectations of him at the moment then, considering that we're currently in 6th?

 

[DuncDisorderly]

Obnoxious, arrogant, embarrassing, always contradicting himself ...

These things are completely irrelevant. The first question for the Chairman is 'Can this man achieve the objective?'. If its yes the second question is 'What do I need to put around him to minimise the inadequacies that they have?'

The managers job is to win football matches and for the team to finish as high up the table as they can. Its not to be nice to everyone. Its not to be witty and clever. Its not to stroke the supporters fur over every issue. Some of the best people for getting the results DO have serious shortcomings in other areas or personality issues. Doesn't stop them from doing a good job if it is handled properly by the board and Chairman.

Preferring to choose someone you like over someone who can do the job (I know we dont see eye to eye on this point) is folly. Seperate your personal feelings about the individual from they job they are doing.

Another 3pts. 6th. Onwards and upwards. UTB..

 

[Ollessendro]

Some tremendous threads covering all points of view.

Pretty obvious what I'm going to say but the bloke is a truly awful manager. His record in the really big games is what matters and he is totally out of his depth at our club, in my opinion. Obnoxious, arrogant, embarrassing, always contradicting himself and it sickens me he is in charge at a time when we still have more than enough to be challenging right at the top of the division - not scrabbling around in 8th to 10th.

Agree with the first statement. Some great posts, icnlcuding the saay from Blade and a couple from Daz and David Pinder.

I pretty much agree with all of the above (most know my thoughts on Blackwell) but have to agree that Blackwell being arrogant, obnoxious etc is irrelevant. Warnock was all of those and I still worship the ground he walks on!?

It's a real strange time for me as a Blade. I personally don't hate Blackwell. It just pisses me off that a clown with no tactical nouss is manager of the Blades. I think he is a rubbish manager, but I couldn't give a monkeys about how he deals with the press etc. It really pisses me off that he hides behind excuses, but tbh if we were in 1st or 2nd it wouldn't bother me.

The fact is that I still feel we are underachieving. Many disagree that we have a good enoguh sqaud for automatic promotion, but I think we do. I have to admit that I feel slightly torn now that we are grinding out results. We are unconvincing, but it's the points that matter.

Wasn't Saturday just typical of Blackwells time in charge? He did a 'decent job'. A no frills, grind out a result, just about deserving it. Solid at the back, devoid of creativity, but just enough to nick it. I think boro were there for the taking. If we'd have attacked them from the off and played to our strenghts then I think we could have put 3 or 4 past em. However, I cannot fault Blackwell as we took the 3 points. In fact the 2 games against Boro sum him up. We took 4 points, which on paper looks good. Relegated team, decent squad, draw away an beat them at home. But I can't help feeling we could achieve more. We went to Boro with the intention of a point. Then we ground them down at home and nicked a win.

As much as it pains me to say it, I have to give Blackwell some credit for constantly grinding out results. His tactical ineptess infuritates me. Couple this with his no plan B, man management and generally looking out of his depth then it pains me that he is Blades manager. The thing that gets to me is that I feel something is missing. It doesn't feel like we are plying well enough for promotion. Remember 05/06? We were tearing teams apart. I mean not every week. I remember us grinding out some results and even winning games we shouldn't have done with Warnocks never say die attitude. However, I also remember us flattening teams when we got out of 2nd gear. I also remember us lloking reallly impressive and playing some good football. We haven't seen any of that under Blackwell. Dunc, Swiss blade and others will say 'look at the results'. I acknowledge this and begrudglingly give KB credit for it. However, I have to say for the reasons staed above that I just don't feel King Kevin has the X factor to get us out of this division!

 

[LouTheBlade]

Agree with the first statement. Some great posts, icnlcuding the saay from Blade and a couple from Daz and David Pinder.

I pretty much agree with all of the above (most know my thoughts on Blackwell) but have to agree that Blackwell being arrogant, obnoxious etc is irrelevant. Warnock was all of those and I still worship the ground he walks on!?

I normally agree with a lot of what you say Ollessendro but I can't agree with the above. I would never class Blackwell as arrogant or obnoxious. What he has been recently is moody and negative because he knows people are getting on his back. Despite the fact that I dislike that I can't accuse him of having any other unsavoury personality traits. Its just in recent weeks he has sounded like a mardy twat.

The point about Warnock is interesting because he was all of the things you mentioned and support was certainly divided on him when he was at the Lane. I personlly sat somewhere in the middle. There were things I liked about Warnock and certain comments he made used to bring a smile to my face but I would never worship the guy - his ego takes up too much space and I can imagine his lovely wife greases the door frame so he can fit his head through it when he gets home.

The fact is Warnock was and always has been a very lucky manager. Come what may he has always stumbled into teams full of hard working, honest players. He has a core of them at Palace now. He seems to pick jobs where he knows those players are because he knows what he can get out of them. He is very good at riding his luck and to be fair to him - knows a good player from a bad one. He was far more tactically limited than KB IMO and managed to have reasonable success (including promotion) because he had better players at his disposal.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

It may be my old age but I can recall many matches where we were god awful in the first half only for Warnock to change it and a completely different team to come out in the 2nd half. It might not have been physical personnel changes but Warnock could turn a game.

I've not really seen Blackwell do that yet in my opinion.

 

[Revolution]

It may be my old age but I can recall many matches where we were god awful in the first half only for Warnock to change it and a completely different team to come out in the 2nd half. It might not have been physical personnel changes but Warnock could turn a game.

I've not really seen Blackwell do that yet in my opinion.

The fact that the team scoring first in our matches tends never to lose would tend to support this, I think. We don't often come back from behind and get anything (although, to KB's credit, we haven't lost a game we scored first in for over 18 months).

A prime example is the playoff final, where I felt the game was over as soon as they scored - and I'm sure I wasn't the only one.

 

[Ollessendro]

I normally agree with a lot of what you say Ollessendro but I can't agree with the above. I would never class Blackwell as arrogant or obnoxious. What he has been recently is moody and negative because he knows people are getting on his back. Despite the fact that I dislike that I can't accuse him of having any other unsavoury personality traits. Its just in recent weeks he has sounded like a mardy twat.

The point about Warnock is interesting because he was all of the things you mentioned and support was certainly divided on him when he was at the Lane. I personlly sat somewhere in the middle. There were things I liked about Warnock and certain comments he made used to bring a smile to my face but I would never worship the guy - his ego takes up too much space and I can imagine his lovely wife greases the door frame so he can fit his head through it when he gets home.

The fact is Warnock was and always has been a very lucky manager. Come what may he has always stumbled into teams full of hard working, honest players. He has a core of them at Palace now. He seems to pick jobs where he knows those players are because he knows what he can get out of them. He is very good at riding his luck and to be fair to him - knows a good player from a bad one. He was far more tactically limited than KB IMO and managed to have reasonable success (including promotion) because he had better players at his disposal.

I am intrigued by what you think about Blackwell Lou. I am not actually referring to just of late, but more all of his rein. This was heightened during the period when we had injuries. The way that he always looks for an excuse, never accepts that he might have made a msistake and is quick to blame others suggests to me that he is arrogant and self righteous. Blackwell can sometimes be awful wiuth the media and that is where I believe he is obnoxious.

Interesting thougths on Warnock. I have to set the record straight that I don't worship the ground he walks on. I do however see him as a Bramall Lane legend. he is a self righteous, arrogant arsehole, but what he did to our club was fantastic. He tooks us from the depths of despair and stabilised us. Then, after being given money for the first time, he got us prmoted. He blew his chance in the big time, but I'll still hold him in high regard. Warncok gave us some great memories over the years. The thing I liked most about him is his passion. Also the never say die attitude his teams give.

I disagree with you (whole heartedly) Lou that he has been lucky! This is certainly not fact as you state it. Warnock had a knack of getting thye best out of his players that is something we both agree on. Kevin Blackwell does not have this skill. The opinio you give about Warnock being tactically more limited than KB is laughable. Just look at the 2 posts after you. We've not won a game that we've gone behind in for god knows how long, which suggests Blackwell has no plan B. No plan B in my book is tactically inept. How many games did Warnocks teams claw back from the brink of defeat? Better players at his disposal?? Are you winding me up? Warnock spent better and got the better out of his players, but to suggest that his promotion team is better than this one is way out. I am sure that Neil Warnock would get this current United team promoted!

 

[Ollessendro]

Warnocks protion winning team:

------- Kenny

Geary Short Morgan Unsworth ------ cover Bromby and Kozzy

Ifill Jags Tonge Armstorng ------ cover Keith G, Quinn and Monty

------ Shipps Webber ------- cover Kabba

Blackwells team this season:

--------- Bunn

Walker Killa Morgs Taylor ---- cover well erm (Seip and Naysmith maybe)

Ward Harper Monty Quinn ---- cover Williamson.

------ Henderson Evans ------ cover Camara and Creswell

Lou, do you honestly think that the former is better than the latter?

I certainly don't. There is no much difference between the 2 teams. Both attacks are very strong and our defence now is possibly stronger (was our defensive record last year better than prmotion winning season?). Warncoks midfield is possibly stronger. However, that midfiled 4 is very strong and there is strong back up. Plau KB decided to get rid of Coterill.

 

[LouTheBlade]

I disagree with you (whole heartedly) Lou that he has been lucky! This is certainly not fact as you state it. Warnock had a knack of getting thye best out of his players that is something we both agree on. Kevin Blackwell does not have this skill. The opinio you give about Warnock being tactically more limited than KB is laughable. Just look at the 2 posts after you. We've not won a game that we've gone behind in for god knows how long, which suggests Blackwell has no plan B. No plan B in my book is tactically inept. How many games did Warnocks teams claw back from the brink of defeat? Better players at his disposal?? Are you winding me up? Warnock spent better and got the better out of his players, but to suggest that his promotion team is better than this one is way out. I am sure that Neil Warnock would get this current United team promoted!

I love a good debate. The point about KB's United not coming from behind in a game could be countered with a statistic I heard recently, that we havent lost after being in front for god knows how long either. Someone said it was Southampton (last game of 2007/08) but not sure if it really stretches back that far.

Warnock was very limited tactically and I dont care what anyone says about that. There is nothing clever about his footballing ideals - get it to the wide players and put crosses in, if that doesnt work - get it to the wide players and put crosses in. He was very one dimensional but had good players. As I said earlier in the promotion season particularly. He had Jagielka, Tonge, Ifill, Shipperley, Webber, Gillespie, Morgan, Kabba, Kenny - who were all very good championship players at the time and playing out of their skin.

Warnock played his part in bringing our club out of the depths but it wasnt largely down to him. That was down to steady management from the directors and chairman. Warnock just worked on a budget because he had to. You point out that as soon as he was given money we got promoted. The likes of Watford, Burnley, Barnsley and Palace have gone up in the past without spending any money. If he was such a good tactician why did we spend the first 4 or 5 years in the Championship. Albeit prior to the triple assault season (as it is known) he didnt have any money of note but I can think of plenty he has spent since only to bring us back down. He was no better than Blackwell. One step forward is nothing when you take two back.

 

[LouTheBlade]

Warnocks protion winning team:

------- Kenny

Geary Short Morgan Unsworth ------ cover Bromby and Kozzy

Ifill Jags Tonge Armstorng ------ cover Keith G, Quinn and Monty

------ Shipps Webber ------- cover Kabba

Blackwells team this season:

--------- Bunn

Walker Killa Morgs Taylor ---- cover well erm (Seip and Naysmith maybe)

Ward Harper Monty Quinn ---- cover Williamson.

------ Henderson Evans ------ cover Camara and Creswell

Lou, do you honestly think that the former is better than the latter?

I certainly don't. There is no much difference between the 2 teams. Both attacks are very strong and our defence now is possibly stronger (was our defensive record last year better than prmotion winning season?). Warncoks midfield is possibly stronger. However, that midfiled 4 is very strong and there is strong back up. Plau KB decided to get rid of Coterill.

The former team is clearly better in my view;

Paddy is better than Bunn

Youve got Morgan in both defences. Unsworth was far better than Taylor. I will concede that Killa and Walker are clearly better than Geary and Short.

Ifill and Ward are completely different players but I rate both. Tonge could get into our midfield now (thats all im saying). Armstrong (who was a cracking player) is better than Quinn.

Henderson is better than Shipps (IMO). But Webber at that time was a lot better than Evans is now.

You could argue that cover from the bench is better but thats only when the squad isnt riddled with injury which for most of this season it has been so KB hasnt had the options. Warnock used to keep massive squads!

So its a mixed bag man for man but I would say the first team had better ball players in it - just my opinion. To be honest we are clutching at straws here. You will never convince me that Warnock was a great manager so its a waste of time.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I love a good debate. The point about KB's United not coming from behind in a game could be countered with a statistic I heard recently, that we havent lost after being in front for god knows how long either. Someone said it was Southampton (last game of 2007/08) but not sure if it really stretches back that far.

Warnock was very limited tactically and I dont care what anyone says about that. There is nothing clever about his footballing ideals - get it to the wide players and put crosses in, if that doesnt work - get it to the wide players and put crosses in. He was very one dimensional but had good players. As I said earlier in the promotion season particularly. He had Jagielka, Tonge, Ifill, Shipperley, Webber, Gillespie, Morgan, Kabba, Kenny - who were all very good championship players at the time and playing out of their skin.

Warnock played his part in bringing our club out of the depths but it wasnt largely down to him. That was down to steady management from the directors and chairman. Warnock just worked on a budget because he had to. You point out that as soon as he was given money we got promoted. The likes of Watford, Burnley, Barnsley and Palace have gone up in the past without spending any money. If he was such a good tactician why did we spend the first 4 or 5 years in the Championship. Albeit prior to the triple assault season (as it is known) he didnt have any money of note but I can think of plenty he has spent since only to bring us back down. He was no better than Blackwell. One step forward is nothing when you take two back.

I agree with a lot of what you say about Warnock and he was lucky in a way to still be in charge at the start of 05/06 after 2 mediocre seasons. People also seem to forget the bad run of form we suffered that season and to be honest had Leeds not lost their bottle (can't remember who their manager was ), we may have thrown it away.

To me, they're from the same mould, their teams will always be based around hard work and commitment, sometimes it will pay off, sometimes it won't with a lot depending on what others do rather than what you do yourself.

 

[LouTheBlade]

I agree with a lot of what you say about Warnock and he was lucky in a way to still be in charge at the start of 05/06 after 2 mediocre seasons. People also seem to forget the bad run of form we suffered that season and to be honest had Leeds not lost their bottle (can't remember who their manager was ), we may have thrown it away.

To me, they're from the same mould, their teams will always be based around hard work and commitment, sometimes it will pay off, sometimes it won't with a lot depending on what others do rather than what you do yourself.

I have to agree with a lot of the above to be honest. If I am completely honest they are from the same school of the game and thats probably why we are all having this discussion. Youre right about the bad run of form as well. We almost chucked it away big time. Leeds and Watford gift wrapped it for us by tripping at the final hurdle.

I agree people do seem to forget the two mediocre seasons he had prior to it. I seem to recall one match we needed to win two seasons before to stand a chance of the playoffs (Home to Millwall), where he elected to play four forwards in a system that just suggested lunacy. We also lost against Wigan because he decided to play Jags at right back (for the first time in donkeys years) and select Stephen Quinn out of the blue (who hadnt played for about a month).

If anyone has read his book he also admits that we would have beaten Wolves in the Cardiff playoff final if we had played 5 in midfield because we always used to beat them with that system. Instead he decided to go against his own better judgment and play 4-4-2 to accomodate Kabba - what happened? We got fucking bombarded by Ince, Cameron, Kennedy and co. who strode through our non-existent midfield. Oh yes.....what a great manager.....

 

[Ollessendro]

Warnock was very limited tactically and I dont care what anyone says about that. There is nothing clever about his footballing ideals - get it to the wide players and put crosses in, if that doesnt work - get it to the wide players and put crosses in. He was very one dimensional but had good players. As I said earlier in the promotion season particularly. He had Jagielka, Tonge, Ifill, Shipperley, Webber, Gillespie, Morgan, Kabba, Kenny - who were all very good championship players at the time and playing out of their skin.

Warnock played his part in bringing our club out of the depths but it wasnt largely down to him. That was down to steady management from the directors and chairman. Warnock just worked on a budget because he had to. You point out that as soon as he was given money we got promoted. The likes of Watford, Burnley, Barnsley and Palace have gone up in the past without spending any money. If he was such a good tactician why did we spend the first 4 or 5 years in the Championship. Albeit prior to the triple assault season (as it is known) he didnt have any money of note but I can think of plenty he has spent since only to bring us back down. He was no better than Blackwell. One step forward is nothing when you take two back.

I never claimed that he was a master tacticain, just better than Blackwell. Also he had a plan B!

If you look at my comments I praise Warnock for getting the best out of players, his passion and United's never say die attitude. I state that he has 'some' tactical nouss (therefore making him better tactically than Blackwell). I am not stating Warnock to be a god. However, he is hands down a better manager than KB.

 

[Ollessendro]

The former team is clearly better in my view;

Paddy is better than Bunn. this is true, but KB had Paddy at his disposal last year and failed to get us promoted. Also, Bunn has showed himself to be a good keeper in the last few months.

Youve got Morgan in both defences. Unsworth was far better than Taylor. True. However Naysmith is as good a defender (if not better) than Unsworth. aagin KB had him in nthe line up last year, when we DIDN'T get prmoted. I will concede that Killa and Walker are clearly better than Geary and Short. That makes the defense under KB better than under Warnock (by your own admission).

Ifill and Ward are completely different players but I rate both. No Blade in the righ mind would say that Ifill is/was better than Ward. In fact quite the oppsoite. Tonge could get into our midfield now (thats all im saying). Ok, fair enough. Armstrong (who was a cracking player) is better than Quinn. Don't agree with you. I'm not sure there is a lot of difference in midfield. Harper is getting better and better and Williamson (when fit and played in position) looks class.

Henderson is better than Shipps (IMO). I don't agrree, but as it suits my argument I'll concede!? But Webber at that time was a lot better than Evans is now. Ok, I'll give you that. What about Camara? He is electric. then there is (3 in the last 3 games) Creswell.

You could argue that cover from the bench is better but thats only when the squad isnt riddled with injury which for most of this season it has been so KB hasnt had the options. Warnock used to keep massive squads!

So its a mixed bag man for man but I would say the first team had better ball players in it - just my opinion. To be honest we are clutching at straws here. You will never convince me that Warnock was a great manager so its a waste of time. I am not trying to convice you he was a 'great' mamanger. just that he is a better manager than Blackwell

So we've established the defence is better under KB.

You thin that up front we are equal. However we have 4 good option this year under KB, compared to 2 under NW (remember Kabba and webber were never fit at the same time).

Then there is the midfield. You state that Amrstrong is better than Quinn, which is disputable. Tonge would get in our midfield you say. So would you drop Harper? Jags was not a central midfilder and although he did a good job, I wouldn't argue he is more effective in that position than Williamson. I can't really see an argument that NW's midfield was better than KB's.

Still think NW's promotion winning team/squad is better than KB's Lou???

 

[LouTheBlade]

So we've established the defence is better under KB.

You thin that up front we are equal. However we have 4 good option this year under KB, compared to 2 under NW (remember Kabba and webber were never fit at the same time).

Then there is the midfield. You state that Amrstrong is better than Quinn, which is disputable. Tonge would get in our midfield you say. So would you drop Harper? Jags was not a central midfilder and although he did a good job, I wouldn't argue he is more effective in that position than Williamson. I can't really see an argument that NW's midfield was better than KB's.

Still think NW's promotion winning team/squad is better than KB's Lou???

As I said Ollessendro we are clutching at straws here. We are talking about two teams full of totally different types of players. There isnt anything similar about any of them which is why this debate isnt going anywhere but round and round in circles.

Warnock had loads of strikers that season - Webber, Kabba, Shipperley, Akinbiyi, Dyer (even Deane, Pericard for short spells). Our midfield has been ordinary for years. The current one looks promising but still has a lot to prove. I never suggested I would swap Tonge for Harper. Theyre neither similar nor play the same role. Tonge would be a more likely replacement for Williamson or Quinn but football is a squad game now and players are interchangeable. My point would be more about the qualities each team had in comparison with each other.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

What about Blackwells latest comment about the team on Saturday on having

Walker, Morgan, Monty, Quinn, Ward and Bennett from the entire squad (16) that was at Wembley.

Maintaining league position while rebuilding an entire squad or just got lucky that the league is generally shit?

 

[LouTheBlade]

What about Blackwells latest comment about the team on Saturday on having

Walker, Morgan, Monty, Quinn, Ward and Bennett from the entire squad (16) that was at Wembley.

Maintaining league position while rebuilding an entire squad or just got lucky that the league is generally shit?

A mix of both I think. The league is poor but to be honest not as poor as last season. The three sides currently looking likely - Newcastle, West Brom and Forest are better sides IMO than Wolves, Birmingham and Burnley so from that point of view I would have to say the division is slightly stronger nearer the top.

United should be where they are because they are one of the best 6 teams without a shadow of a doubt but youre looking at 21 to 22 fairly average teams in a rat race.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I thought Forest were shite, I honestly think we are a better side then they are.

 

[LouTheBlade]

I thought Forest were shite, I honestly think we are a better side then they are.

I agree with you on that. I have felt like that since they came to Bramall Lane but I never really want to say it because the points difference just makes it look like a case of sour grapes when you do.

If I am completely honest though I dont know how theyre second, it is absolutely beyond me. They were the most ordinary and uninspiring team ive seen. They had one pop at our goal and it went wide.

There must be something there though, they rolling everyone over at the moment. So much so that it doesnt seem like its down to luck any more. I will rephrase what I said earlier and say their form is better than the likes of Birmingham and Wolves last season. Newcastle and WBA are definately better than some of the dross last year though.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Not bothered about sour grapes, they were shit, unadventurous and offered nothing. I was embarrassed to only get a draw.

Apparently they are unbeaten away. Not that you'd know, they like to keep it to themselves.

Fuck knows how btw.

 

[LouTheBlade]

Not bothered about sour grapes, they were shit, unadventurous and offered nothing. I was embarrassed to only get a draw.

I was left very frustrated as well after that game. We should have put them to the sword that night but one thing they do have is a very good goalkeeper and he kept them in it.

Its typical Billy Davies approach. His sides never turn up away from home to make a football match of it. He just wants to kill any chance of entertainment and suffocate the opposition. They tried and failed but got lucky that night.

 

[Ollessendro]

I agree with a lot of what you say about Warnock and he was lucky in a way to still be in charge at the start of 05/06 after 2 mediocre seasons. People also seem to forget the bad run of form we suffered that season and to be honest had Leeds not lost their bottle (can't remember who their manager was ), we may have thrown it away.

The stick that NW gets on here really gets on my wick some times. In our promotion season we were the second best team in the league by a long way. Other than 2 or 3 weeks we never looked like finishing outside the automatic spots. Sure we had a purple patch (but other than Arsenal in 2004 I don't remember any team not) but so what? Leeds were close and we looked a bit nervous. But Warnock rectified his mistake (dropping Shipps and playing Akinbye) and we cruised back into second spot.

I remember watching us on numerous occassions that year and thinking, 'this is our year'. In fact a mate of mine went to watch us play at Reading. We lost, but played them off the park. i'm sure you remember it, Paddy should have been sent off but got a yellow for handling outside the area. Then Keith got 'assaulted' in the penalty area and the referee gave nothing. My mate texted me after the game and said this is our year. I remember us taking several teams apart by 3 or 4 goals.

But oh no, no Warnock was lucky. Bollocks! The league table doesn't lie. We clearly deserved promotion that year. The majority of that lies down to Warnock. It was his team that did it. Key signings such as Shipps and Gillespie NW brought in that summer.