Injuries

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SwissBlade said:
Ok, thanks, that's clearer.

I'd say that firstly, each player will peak at different times of the season and it will depend on so many factors including their build, position and many other factors.
Hamer and Souza are both very good examples.
Hamer, last season concerned me, he was getting to 60 mins and having issues on a consistent basis that either meant he wasn't finishing games or he was cramping up or both. As the season went on, these issues dissipated and he was finishing games strong, from a fitness perspective. This season he's reaching end of games in a far better state. He's a much more muscular build that some other players so will have different needs. Last season may simply have been something such as a change in nutrition from what he was doing at Coventry.
Souza, last season looked more muscular, physically, this season, whilst still muscular, he looks leaner. He's probably carrying more bulk than he needs for his role and that can also bring other issues, especially if he's doing heavy weight routines in the gym for his hammies, it can impact his pelvis. Some good studies on premier league players and links to injuries from weight routines, i'll try to find.

A very rudimentary summary, but the point is that players will be managed differently with experts, its not an exact science....

Peck can't be rested, not until next week, which i think he will get a rest against cardiff. He'll need to play a part at Watford, purely because of numbers we have.

Brooks has an excuse, he's come into two games and played at a high intensity. He was probably pushed a little further but after his cramping, a number of the players were at the sidelines taking in gels and fluids, which suggests that they were being managed. Again, cramping isn't a sign of poor preparation or undertraining, it could also be over playing. Lots of factors.

I've gone deep into this on training camps for Ironman races before, 7 days in the alps - cycling swimming and running, cramping on a 13km climb up the Col de Ramaz as i waited for my gel to kick in and finishing my last bottle before the top so that i can recover on the descent... it can be managed and a fine line.

But it can also be something as simple as having under or over salted food the night before, slight stomach upset (we know there was illness in the squad too) or it could also be nerves on a big occasion. I know lads who've dialed in their nutrition and training and never had cramp problems in races to then suddenly cramping up. It's not an exact science as i say, from my experience
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Tha
SwissBlade said:
Ok, thanks, that's clearer.

I'd say that firstly, each player will peak at different times of the season and it will depend on so many factors including their build, position and many other factors.
Hamer and Souza are both very good examples.
Hamer, last season concerned me, he was getting to 60 mins and having issues on a consistent basis that either meant he wasn't finishing games or he was cramping up or both. As the season went on, these issues dissipated and he was finishing games strong, from a fitness perspective. This season he's reaching end of games in a far better state. He's a much more muscular build that some other players so will have different needs. Last season may simply have been something such as a change in nutrition from what he was doing at Coventry.
Souza, last season looked more muscular, physically, this season, whilst still muscular, he looks leaner. He's probably carrying more bulk than he needs for his role and that can also bring other issues, especially if he's doing heavy weight routines in the gym for his hammies, it can impact his pelvis. Some good studies on premier league players and links to injuries from weight routines, i'll try to find.

A very rudimentary summary, but the point is that players will be managed differently with experts, its not an exact science....

Peck can't be rested, not until next week, which i think he will get a rest against cardiff. He'll need to play a part at Watford, purely because of numbers we have.

Brooks has an excuse, he's come into two games and played at a high intensity. He was probably pushed a little further but after his cramping, a number of the players were at the sidelines taking in gels and fluids, which suggests that they were being managed. Again, cramping isn't a sign of poor preparation or undertraining, it could also be over playing. Lots of factors.

I've gone deep into this on training camps for Ironman races before, 7 days in the alps - cycling swimming and running, cramping on a 13km climb up the Col de Ramaz as i waited for my gel to kick in and finishing my last bottle before the top so that i can recover on the descent... it can be managed and a fine line.

But it can also be something as simple as having under or over salted food the night before, slight stomach upset (we know there was illness in the squad too) or it could also be nerves on a big occasion. I know lads who've dialed in their nutrition and training and never had cramp problems in races to then suddenly cramping up. It's not an exact science as i say, from my experience
Click to expand...
Thank you for expanding on your points.
I agree totally on your points regarding physiology and the different build of each player. I agree that weight training can affect you in lots of ways. Go too far and it tightens you up a bit.

I will leave you alone on the triathlons as I would hardly drive that distance at my age and fitness levels or lack of fitness level.

Where I am coming from is from my playing and management of football teams and Gaelic games Hurling and Football teams. Which are amateur. I am also basing it on Gaelic County teams who are the best of the players at club level. These guys are amateurs but train as much as professionals. They have less games than a championship football side. But the intensity is much higher per game and the physical impact endured is in a different league.

You made a good point regarding peaking at certain times. That is in Gaelic as well. Their coaches and strength and conditioning personnel are working to be in good shape early in the season but then hopefully peak physically, skill capability and mentally for the last few games. They talk about managing the load.

It's an interesting topic and as you said it is not an exact science so a bit of guesswork and trial and error comes into play.
 
Nagima said:
Thank you for expanding on your points.
I agree totally on your points regarding physiology and the different build of each player. I agree that weight training can affect you in lots of ways. Go too far and it tightens you up a bit.

I will leave you alone on the triathlons as I would hardly drive that distance at my age and fitness levels or lack of fitness level.

Where I am coming from is from my playing and management of football teams and Gaelic games Hurling and Football teams. Which are amateur. I am also basing it on Gaelic County teams who are the best of the players at club level. These guys are amateurs but train as much as professionals. They have less games than a championship football side. But the intensity is much higher per game and the physical impact endured is in a different league.

You made a good point regarding peaking at certain times. That is in Gaelic as well. Their coaches and strength and conditioning personnel are working to be in good shape early in the season but then hopefully peak physically, skill capability and mentally for the last few games. They talk about managing the load.

It's an interesting topic and as you said it is not an exact science so a bit of guesswork and trial and error comes into play.
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Thanks for that as well, different experiences, but the same valid points, we can probably summarise that the club and the players are doing lots of preparation, the in game and in training efforts/ strain/ intensity is being monitored, which we know from the relatively cheap data capturing GPS vests nowadays and recovery is also being managed between games.

The challenge comes from the players all having different individual needs and each player will react slightly differently, so there will be some that never cramp up, some that never get fatigued and some that never seem to tire despite the run of games we've had, the likes of Tom Davies seems to be a machine having been out so long yet Brooks tired after one 90 mins or Brewster as we know from the past can get through 90 but then will not be seen for weeks / months. I hope i haven't just jinxed Tom Davies here!

I've just looked back on this thread as i'd written a long post about fitness and injuries after the Sunderland game but it seems that it's not uploaded. Perhaps a good thing as it was long. However, i'd touched on the back injury of Campbell, but also the studies done in the Premier league on players using more and heavier weights which was turning them into sprinters with powerful glutes and hammies which intended to make them faster, but the downside was that it was increasing lower back and hamstring injuries. I'm sure it was also reported in the Athletic but i don't have a subscription there anymore.

The main take away was that there seemed to be a correlation with lots of heavier leg weight training and hamstring injuries

The point about peaking is that what i found with triathlon and some coaching was that you'll train for a single race, which suggests that training for footballers, gaelic footballers and triathletes would be entirely different. And on the surface that would be a good assumption, however, the training is broken down into cycles or periods over the year. I'd assume that with the football season, this can also be done, what with the international breaks and peak clusters that the players need to be fully at it for, like this xmas period. It's very much about managing the load as you say. Picking out key points of the season and breaking it down not by opposition, but by periods of intensity and using the natural breaks, like the small one we have after Watford to get some good recovery in.
 
Interesting views on individuals being allocated specific targets for intense periods of greater effort and rest and recuperation.
Surely as highly paid professional athletes, the specifics of training regimes, diet and fitness levels is included, or is that an observation from other sporting endeavors pointing to deficiencies in our approach to individual footballers?
If we are missing something, perhaps it’s worth putting forward to the club.

My main concern is that natural skills that got players where they are now, will eventually be eroded by such a holistic approach to individual training efforts. Maybe I’m being a bit dim, but there could be such a thing as too much information, for certain players? Are they all capable of taking it all in, or will too great a concentration on personal fitness levels, dull their natural inherent footballing skills?
 
Cappy said:
I don't know anything about injuries, I just got told one thing once about Souttar that was correct (although I speculated something additional that was wrong). But that was pure luck that I was in a whatsapp group temporarily about something different and an ITKer shared a bit.

I used to get a bit of ITK info on incoming transfers but that's out the window with the new owners. I've been told I won't hear anything. I expect all leaky stuff we used to get to be very much tightened up going forward

What I heard about Souza was he'd be likely back for the Derby County game, but that was off Darren Smith, so take that how you want to 🤩 I actually find him quite reliable.

The Campbell one is baffling. I could understand it being his lower back, at the time. I used to get tight hamstrings and pain manifesting itself in my hamstrings from my lower back issues when I was running a lot. Add to that that he came back out after the game had finished and did warm downs with the other lads. Saw it with my real eyes. I couldn't imagine you'd do that with a hammy issue.

But he's been out way too long for a sore back?
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Do you always use your real eyes or are they just for special occasions, like sporting events Xmas, holidays and stuff ? And you revert back to your fake eyes for everyday use ?
 
Cappy said:
I don't know anything about injuries, I just got told one thing once about Souttar that was correct (although I speculated something additional that was wrong). But that was pure luck that I was in a whatsapp group temporarily about something different and an ITKer shared a bit.

I used to get a bit of ITK info on incoming transfers but that's out the window with the new owners. I've been told I won't hear anything. I expect all leaky stuff we used to get to be very much tightened up going forward

What I heard about Souza was he'd be likely back for the Derby County game, but that was off Darren Smith, so take that how you want to 🤩 I actually find him quite reliable.

The Campbell one is baffling. I could understand it being his lower back, at the time. I used to get tight hamstrings and pain manifesting itself in my hamstrings from my lower back issues when I was running a lot. Add to that that he came back out after the game had finished and did warm downs with the other lads. Saw it with my real eyes. I couldn't imagine you'd do that with a hammy issue.

But he's been out way too long for a sore back?
Click to expand...
I've been out for over 6 months with a sore back. Just like the above, manifesting itself in my hammys and legs. Having said that, I am a 56 year old shit footballer paying for my own physio. It's been a long slog, but finally getting somewhere now.
 
wizadry said:
….and not one interviewer asked Wilder about him coming off holding his hamstring, is there any point in having interviews anymore? They’re all pretty meaningless questions anyway.
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RS interviewers sound like fawning sycophants asking questions which amount to nothing more than giving CW & his lads the opportunity to to say how everything is rosy.
Never any searching questions about players or tactics or seeking any comments about anything even slightly negative.
I'm sure that CW has set the rules of engagement.
There is barely any point in having them immediately after a game when CW will be full of adrenaline and the interviewers are shit-scared.
 

Moore should have recovered for the next league game then. The FA Cup break couldn't have come at a better time.
 
JRS possibly confirming what Wilder said about most of our injured lads will be back for the Norwich game?

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Bladesman said:
Injured himself really mis controlling the ball and getting clattered.

RND was decent before his injury and is certainly not the same.
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It's sad to see, but also undeniable.
A player with so much promise but it looks as though the injuries have caught up with him.
 
Not sure about RND, rest are meant to be back apart from Souza (another week or two)
 

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