Injuries

[Charlieblade]

Excuse me for stating the blindingly obvious, and for playing devils advocate a bit too.

Every player presents a different physiological and anatomical profile. They are mostly different ages and from differing backgrounds in sporting profiles.

The PH method follows the Wilder belief that training effort and standards should mirror that expected in competitive matches. It’s possible that the PH method is more severe and some responsibility might lay with him for that reason.

Given their very disparate physiology, it it also possible that some bodies are more vulnerable than others. Maybe the aspiration held by PH for supreme fitness is a step too far for many players?

While there seems to be almost universal approval from players, most of them say the enjoy training and coming in to work every day, the standards expected of individuals could be inappropriate for them personally.

Are they suffering because of a natural aspiration for being part of a successful squad built on a team ethos similar to the military dependence on each member of the team. No one wants to let the team down, so they push themselves too hard!

There are core players of a similar disposition to each other, but also many polar opposites. Compare the style and effort seen in the likes of Osborn and Berge for example. Perhaps Wilder went as far as possible with physical improvements, and Heckinbottom is trying to take that a stage further?

I am fairly sure that medical and conditioning staff must measure each individual, and assess them as individuals. Collectively they could just be worn out by a rigorous regime that the players enjoy, and their competitive instincts take over.

End result is anatomical parts wearing out, because the human body is unique to each player, but the team drive and standards are not achievable collectively, however much they enjoy being a part of it.
Sorry if it’s a long read.

 

[El Volví]

Has there been any of our players who haven't had some sort of injury this season (or even last season)?
I'm sure that even ever present Egan and Norwood have had some knock or other!

 

[robbiez666]

Excuse me for stating the blindingly obvious, and for playing devils advocate a bit too.

Every player presents a different physiological and anatomical profile. They are mostly different ages and from differing backgrounds in sporting profiles.

The PH method follows the Wilder belief that training effort and standards should mirror that expected in competitive matches. It’s possible that the PH method is more severe and some responsibility might lay with him for that reason.

Given their very disparate physiology, it it also possible that some bodies are more vulnerable than others. Maybe the aspiration held by PH for supreme fitness is a step too far for many players?

While there seems to be almost universal approval from players, most of them say the enjoy training and coming in to work every day, the standards expected of individuals could be inappropriate for them personally.

Are they suffering because of a natural aspiration for being part of a successful squad built on a team ethos similar to the military dependence on each member of the team. No one wants to let the team down, so they push themselves too hard!

There are core players of a similar disposition to each other, but also many polar opposites. Compare the style and effort seen in the likes of Osborn and Berge for example. Perhaps Wilder went as far as possible with physical improvements, and Heckinbottom is trying to take that a stage further?

I am fairly sure that medical and conditioning staff must measure each individual, and assess them as individuals. Collectively they could just be worn out by a rigorous regime that the players enjoy, and their competitive instincts take over.

End result is anatomical parts wearing out, because the human body is unique to each player, but the team drive and standards are not achievable collectively, however much they enjoy being a part of it.
Sorry if it’s a long read.

Bielsa is famous for wearing players out. Getting 150% out of them for 1-3 years and then they start having issues. Look at some of his players now.

There might be a case that the players who were here under Wilder and been training hard for years have worn themselves out. If you train twice as hard as other clubs then players will get more injuries.

We could train less, but then there's a good chance that the results won't be as good. I'm sure the way we train has a direct impact on results. And I'd also guess that is we are training flat out we need the facilities to be perfect. Much more so than a team who train less rigorously.

 

[Charlieblade]

Bielsa is famous for wearing players out. Getting 150% out of them for 1-3 years and then they start having issues. Look at some of his players now.

There might be a case that the players who were here under Wilder and been training hard for years have worn themselves out. If you train twice as hard as other clubs then players will get more injuries.

We could train less, but then there's a good chance that the results won't be as good. I'm sure the way we train has a direct impact on results. And I'd also guess that is we are training flat out we need the facilities to be perfect. Much more so than a team who train less rigorously.

It’s Just my observation robbiez666
Thanks for the Bielsa info. I wasn’t aware of that.

I recall a line from a song. “Some of them want to abuse you, some of them want to be abused”. lol

 

[Houston_Blade]

Apparently Injuries happend on the 4 g inside ir out ,it's not the facilities it's the players that are made out of chalk

4g surfaces are harder on the joints as you don't get the natural 'give' that playing on grass provides. This might be why Hecky is frustrated as he would like a winter-proof grass pitch.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Excuse me for stating the blindingly obvious, and for playing devils advocate a bit too.

Every player presents a different physiological and anatomical profile. They are mostly different ages and from differing backgrounds in sporting profiles.

The PH method follows the Wilder belief that training effort and standards should mirror that expected in competitive matches. It’s possible that the PH method is more severe and some responsibility might lay with him for that reason.

Given their very disparate physiology, it it also possible that some bodies are more vulnerable than others. Maybe the aspiration held by PH for supreme fitness is a step too far for many players?

While there seems to be almost universal approval from players, most of them say the enjoy training and coming in to work every day, the standards expected of individuals could be inappropriate for them personally.

Are they suffering because of a natural aspiration for being part of a successful squad built on a team ethos similar to the military dependence on each member of the team. No one wants to let the team down, so they push themselves too hard!

There are core players of a similar disposition to each other, but also many polar opposites. Compare the style and effort seen in the likes of Osborn and Berge for example. Perhaps Wilder went as far as possible with physical improvements, and Heckinbottom is trying to take that a stage further?

I am fairly sure that medical and conditioning staff must measure each individual, and assess them as individuals. Collectively they could just be worn out by a rigorous regime that the players enjoy, and their competitive instincts take over.

End result is anatomical parts wearing out, because the human body is unique to each player, but the team drive and standards are not achievable collectively, however much they enjoy being a part of it.
Sorry if it’s a long read.

I'm not having it that any team trains 'harder' than other teams.

In my opinion these are just soundbites from managers to give them a bit of time when they first come in..... "team wasn't fit", "training intensity was lacking" etc.

Different managers will have different approaches to training but I'd guess that towards the top end of elite football (higher Championship and PL) there isn't much difference between clubs. You have the odd exception like Di Canio etc. who were known to flog players, but you don't hear those noises coming out of the players here.

 

[Bladeloyal]

4g surfaces are harder on the joints as you don't get the natural 'give' that playing on grass provides. This might be why Hecky is frustrated as he would like a winter-proof grass pitch.

4 g has plenty of give with the rubber underneath and rubber micro pellets,I've played and trained up at shirecliffe in outside 4 g and the indoor one .

 

[Bladeloyal]

4 g has plenty of give with the rubber underneath and rubber micro pellets,I've played and trained up at shirecliffe in outside 4 g and the indoor one .

And quite a few Scottish and non league have them as their main pitch's

 

[Houston_Blade]

4 g has plenty of give with the rubber underneath and rubber micro pellets

Agreed, but still not as much as natural grass surfaces and it puts more pressure on joints as a result. Don't get me wrong, 4g is better than a poor grass pitch, but compared with a pristine one there's no comparison.

 

[Houston_Blade]

And quite a few Scottish and non league have them as their main pitch's

That's to reduce the likelihood of games being called off and to bring a commercial revenue outside of matchdays where they can hire the pitches out to others.

 

[Lightsoot]

Osula the latest to the list with….. a broken jaw .. sustained in recent U21’s game. Hecky told Nathan Hemmingham that he won’t be going back out on loan due to us being low on forward numbers.

 

[Harry's Game]

Osula the latest to the list with….. a broken jaw .. sustained in recent U21’s game. Hecky told Nathan Hemmingham that he won’t be going back out on loan due to us being low on forward numbers.

For Fucks Sake

 

[robbiez666]

Osula the latest to the list with….. a broken jaw .. sustained in recent U21’s game. Hecky told Nathan Hemmingham that he won’t be going back out on loan due to us being low on forward numbers.

Oh come off it. 'Recent U21 game' my foot. It's clear that Hecky decked him. The evil bastard. Hellbent on ruining our club.

 

[Charlieblade]

I'm not having it that any team trains 'harder' than other teams.

In my opinion these are just soundbites from managers to give them a bit of time when they first come in..... "team wasn't fit", "training intensity was lacking" etc.

Different managers will have different approaches to training but I'd guess that towards the top end of elite football (higher Championship and PL) there isn't much difference between clubs. You have the odd exception like Di Canio etc. who were known to flog players, but you don't hear those noises coming out of the players here.

I didn’t say harder. Train like we play (high intensity) was the Wilder way, subsequently adopted by PH. No one knows unless they are involved in it on a daily basis.
As I said at the start. ‘Stating the obvious’ and playing ‘devils advocate’.

You decide but please don’t make assumptions about what I actually said.

 

[BushBlade]

I'm not having it that any team trains 'harder' than other teams.

In my opinion these are just soundbites from managers to give them a bit of time when they first come in..... "team wasn't fit", "training intensity was lacking" etc.

Different managers will have different approaches to training but I'd guess that towards the top end of elite football (higher Championship and PL) there isn't much difference between clubs. You have the odd exception like Di Canio etc. who were known to flog players, but you don't hear those noises coming out of the players here.

Didn’t a couple of our players (Billy and someone?) state after Slav left that his training lacked intensity? That would indicate different managers take different approaches. I remember the Chelsea players like that fat little fuck Hazard being reported as hating Conte’s training as he worked them too hard.

A Licence? Completed it mate.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Didn’t a couple of our players (Billy and someone?) state after Slav left that his training lacked intensity? That would indicate different managers take different approaches. I remember the Chelsea players like that fat little fuck Hazard being reported as hating Conte’s training as he worked them too hard.

A Licence? Completed it mate.

They did, but then is that just an excuse for being shit for a few months?

All new managers come in and say that players are unfit, it must be in the handbook for manager's first interviews.

I'm not disputing that the intensity might be different with different managers, however it's just another way of doing the same thing surely?! Some managers are renowned for just doing 5 a sides all week, others for running players until they're sick, others might spend more time explaining. They all went on the same coaching courses and are looking to win football matches.

I really don't see H,J&SM being that groundbreakingly different to anything else that's in the game at the moment.

 

[BushBlade]

They did, but then is that just an excuse for being shit for a few months?

All new managers come in and say that players are unfit, it must be in the handbook for manager's first interviews.

I'm not disputing that the intensity might be different with different managers, however it's just another way of doing the same thing surely?! Some managers are renowned for just doing 5 a sides all week, others for running players until they're sick, others might spend more time explaining. They all went on the same coaching courses and are looking to win football matches.

I really don't see H,J&SM being that groundbreakingly different to anything else that's in the game at the moment.

Yeah, I’ve heard pundits over the last couple of years criticise new managers who come in and say the players aren’t fit. I wonder with Slav if it was more that he didn’t work on patterns of play as much, wanted players to be more “off the cuff”? I think that was part of the problem with Adkins. Clough seemed to be the type that would work on patterns, be very clear what the players should be doing in possession, where they should be positioned, make runs etc, be quite prescriptive. Wilder very obviously did. I think our senior players like that approach; straight talking “this is what I want you to do, this is what I expect” than rattling in about geese and room for improvement.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Yeah, I’ve heard pundits over the last couple of years criticise new managers who come in and say the players aren’t fit. I wonder with Slav if it was more that he didn’t work on patterns of play as much, wanted players to be more “off the cuff”? I think that was part of the problem with Adkins. Clough seemed to be the type that would work on patterns, be very clear what the players should be doing in possession, where they should be positioned, make runs etc, be quite prescriptive. Wilder very obviously did. I think our senior players like that approach; straight talking “this is what I want you to do, this is what I expect” than rattling in about geese and room for improvement.

It's evident when a team marks Oli Norwood or presses either of the wing backs that we have no idea what to do!

I find it bizarre that pro clubs want kids at an early age who are physically and/or technically superior to the point where they tell them to be greedy and not pass. Then they get a few years older (normally around 12 years old) and then ask them to learn the complete opposite and become pass, pass, pass and this continues into the senior game.

Obviously it's been thought up by a better mind than mine but it seems a strange way of teaching football.

 

[Grecian2000]

I'm not having it that any team trains 'harder' than other teams.

In my opinion these are just soundbites from managers to give them a bit of time when they first come in..... "team wasn't fit", "training intensity was lacking" etc.

In the most part I think you're right.
However, the exception that proves the rule is the state of the team Robson left us with. Couldn't see out a game beyond the hour mark.
The dick-head Hoofy managed to get them to a level of fitness that meant we could play a full 90 (and in Beattie's case could play without "looking after himself") and we started to fly.

 

[Ned the Donkey]

Training "lacking intensity" does not equate to managers or players can't be arsed. From the little I have read and seen about this there are two schools of thought:

Wilder/Hecky and plenty of others - Train as you Play
Slav and plenty of others - Save yourself for Matchday

They'll both have their pros and cons, and they'll suit different players (same as bollocking versus arm round the shoulder suits different players - and anyone claiming different knows fuck all about man mangement) it seems pretty ridiculous to claim that one training method is obviously better or worse than the other.

For a specific example wasn't Slav the Fulham manager for the 4-5 a few seasons ago. At the end of that match two teams with two different training methods had given their all and quite a few of the players for both sides were laid out on the field. There weren't many players "lacking intensity" in that game.

Further back, and I wasn't old enough to judge, but from the conversations I heard as a kid Keith Edwards "lacked intensity" apart from the times when there was an opportunity to score, and that seemed to work out well for him and for us.

 

[Norwood's 6 iron]

It's evident when a team marks Oli Norwood or presses either of the wing backs that we have no idea what to do!

I find it bizarre that pro clubs want kids at an early age who are physically and/or technically superior to the point where they tell them to be greedy and not pass. Then they get a few years older (normally around 12 years old) and then ask them to learn the complete opposite and become pass, pass, pass and this continues into the senior game.

Obviously it's been thought up by a better mind than mine but it seems a strange way of teaching football.

I'm not sure that the amount of organised football, starting at a very early age, does our talent pool much good.
I may be wrong with this but to me it is noticeable the amount of foreign players that now play in English football that come from countries where football isn't so structured.
Any possible talent can easily be coached out of a young kid because he is told to play in a certain position and not given the opportunity to develop their natural skills.

 

[Houston_Blade]

I'm not sure that the amount of organised football, starting at a very early age, does our talent pool much good.
I may be wrong with this but to me it is noticeable the amount of foreign players that now play in English football that come from countries where football isn't so structured.
Any possible talent can easily be coached out of a young kid because he is told to play in a certain position and not given the opportunity to develop their natural skills.

I fully agree on this, the best grassroots and academy coaches don't generally assign a position to a player, there are fundamental skills that all players need so the focus should be on coaching these and not just choosing the tall kid to play in net, the big lads at the back etc.

 

[Mojo]

What's this bollocks about players never being injured under wilder. In his last season it was like the walking dead we could barely put a team out

 

[Champagneblade]

So Osula had wasted no time casually getting his jaw broken in the last U23 game.

He didn't get much of a chance to become Khadra's replacement, now did he?

 

[3Cheers4Ramirez]

We might just have to aim for a team full of Egans and Norwoods. Not athletically specific types if you like, not sprinters, not hamstringers, not obese....

 

[Norwood's 6 iron]

I fully agree on this, the best grassroots and academy coaches don't generally assign a position to a player, there are fundamental skills that all players need so the focus should be on coaching these and not just choosing the tall kid to play in net, the big lads at the back etc.

When you look at the number of kids playing organised football throughout the country (which is thousands) our conversion rate to produce professional footballers is pretty poor. To produce quality international players is even worse. If our schoolboy/youth set up worked we should be producing far more quality players than we currently do.

 

[Rudders]

So Osula had wasted no time casually getting his jaw broken in the last U23 game.

He didn't get much of a chance to become Khadra's replacement, now did he?

Dont worry lad he is banned for 4 matches anyway!

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

Dont worry lad he is banned for 4 matches anyway!

After Friday he would have been available for selection.

 

[robbiez666]

After Friday he would have been available for selection.

cup-tied for Wrexham so might be back after that

 

[CaptainMorgans]

Seemed to get through Hull without any new injuries and the training video the club put out featured everybody that you'd expect.

Still no update on the nature of Baldock and Stevens injuries.

Some images have been released of Brewster and RND doing some gym work and PH has said that Clark and Fleck are 'back on the grass,' but not yet in full training.


Revised guesses below:

C Clark - mid-February 2023 (4 weeks) - hamstring strain

J Fleck - mid-February 2023 - swelling around previously broken leg (3 months)

G Baldock - late-February 2023 - unknown muscular injury (5 weeks)

E Stevens - late-February 2023 - unknown muscular injury (5 weeks)

R Brewster - March 2023 (5 months) - hamstring surgery

R Norrington-Davies - March 2023 (5 months) - hamstring surgery

J O'Connell - unlikely to return (2.5 years+) - knee

Guess at the team for Sunday's visit to Wrexham:

.............................Davies
......Basham..........Egan.......Robinson
...Bogle..............................................Lowe
............Doyle......Norwood.....Coulibaly
............................McAtee
...........................Jebbison

Subs: Foderingham, Ahmedhodzic, Berge, Osborn, Ndiaye, McBurnie, Sharp.

Not the team I'd play personally, I wouldn't let Bogle & Lowe anywhere near it given how thinly spread we are in the wing back areas.
But a guess at what PH might do... a lot of talent in the XI, but the big guns on the bench.