If we're going to sell players, just sell them now

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People have lost the run of themselves a bit I feel.

A couple of million was basically 10-20% of our promotion winning wage bill! For the season - it’s paying 2 players 20k a week!

we’ve been relegated, there’s no premier league money tree to enjoy, sponsorship deals will shrink, commercial income will shrink. And parashoot payments will only go so far.

we need to be clever, although we don’t want it overshadowing the entire offseason it’s insane to suggest we shouldn’t negotiate every last penny out of the suitors. And we must have replacements lined up.
 
The other side of it is if we don't end up selling, are stuck with a disgruntled player and have an unbalanced squad as a result, sort of when Berahino wasn't sold by West Brom.

There is no evidence of course that Berge or anyone else would throw toys out of the pram, but there is a World Cup next year so that's an added complication.

Having their future settled either way soon would be a benefit to all is what I am saying, to state the obvious rather than this ongoing 'saga'.
 
The other side of it is if we don't end up selling, are stuck with a disgruntled player and have an unbalanced squad as a result, sort of when Berahino wasn't sold by West Brom.

There is no evidence of course that Berge or anyone else would throw toys out of the pram, but there is a World Cup next year so that's an added complication.

Having their future settled either way soon would be a benefit to all is what I am saying, to state the obvious rather than this ongoing 'saga'.
I don't know if you remember me saying this to you before in a thread about Wilder but you're doing your thing again where you start with something bombastic and then walk it back to something trivial. And then you pretend you said the trivial uninteresting thing all along.

You've literally started a thread saying we need to sell players quickly, but now you want to retreat to this hypothetical of "IF we don't sell a player then MAYBE that player won't be happy, and MAYBE that will unbalance our squad" and then top it off with saying "There is no evidence of course" that this will actually happen.

Maybe our players are generally happy where they are, and maybe they'd be open to moves if offers came in but the club won't entertain less than our own valuation, and maybe you're just coming up with something to whine about?
 
The other side of it is if we don't end up selling, are stuck with a disgruntled player and have an unbalanced squad as a result, sort of when Berahino wasn't sold by West Brom.

There is no evidence of course that Berge or anyone else would throw toys out of the pram, but there is a World Cup next year so that's an added complication.

Having their future settled either way soon would be a benefit to all is what I am saying, to state the obvious rather than this ongoing 'saga'.

No, there is no evidence that this happens Kev

More likely scenario is the player knuckles down and keeps the interest in him high
 
New boss has already said, nothing is going to happen , until he has seen and spoken to everyone. Not sure if someone meets a release clause, if that still applies.
Has he said owt really? Where is he anyway? Thought I saw him last weekend. We went to the Broadfield Tavern, very nice pint of (new) Stones then to Nether Edge pizzas who weren't taking any more orders. So I said 'if you're going to sell pizzas, just sell them now'. And someone turned round.

 
Reyt plan. Sell em this week, while everybody is tied up at Euros, and the money can sit in the bank til we can even begin talking to targets. Pure genius.
 
The other side of it is if we don't end up selling, are stuck with a disgruntled player and have an unbalanced squad as a result, sort of when Berahino wasn't sold by West Brom.

There is no evidence of course that Berge or anyone else would throw toys out of the pram, but there is a World Cup next year so that's an added complication.

Having their future settled either way soon would be a benefit to all is what I am saying, to state the obvious rather than this ongoing 'saga'.

Probably best to stop digging FMB1

Do you mind if I ask what line of work you're in? Is negotiation with third parties an important part of your role? If not, it may be worth looking up the key principles of a successful negotiator/negotiation

e.g. http://www.raystendall.com/rs/commu...on-101-the-6-basic-principles-of-negotiation/

or


I couldn't find 'panic, accept the first offer, reduce your ability to realise a better outcome, and then make everyone aware that you have funds to spend' anywhere and haven't yet come across it in my professional life. That said, I haven't ever worked for Scarborough Group! :)
 
We could try to do what Dortmund did with Sancho 'Either it happens at our price by this date or he's staying no-matter what'.

Now of course we're not in as strong as a position, don't want us to drop our pants down but wouldn't mind if we sold a few million less than what we would have hoped if it meant we could move forward faster.
Eerrr isn’t that exactly what’s been suggested we are doing? We’ve allegedly said any interested club would have to meet the release clause.
Man United we’re trying to get Sancho right to the end of the last summer window so that example goes entirely again what you appear to be suggesting which is shit the bed and sell cheap so it’s done and dusted.
 
Probably best to stop digging FMB1

Do you mind if I ask what line of work you're in? Is negotiation with third parties an important part of your role? If not, it may be worth looking up the key principles of a successful negotiator/negotiation

e.g. http://www.raystendall.com/rs/commu...on-101-the-6-basic-principles-of-negotiation/

or


I couldn't find 'panic, accept the first offer, reduce your ability to realise a better outcome, and then make everyone aware that you have funds to spend' anywhere and haven't yet come across it in my professional life. That said, I haven't ever worked for Scarborough Group! :)

I can't find the link but I remember the President of Barcelona saying that he would have sold Neymar for lower if he'd have come forward because all it meant was that Barcelona had to pay silly Dembele money to replace him and prices for everyone went up. Guardiola also said the problem being Man City manager is that every club they try to buy a player from raises their demands because of them.

I work in hospitality since you ask, and if you have unhappy staff or who are likely to move on I'd rather they just go as soon as possible then can start to bring in people to replace them long term rather than lingering about.

Your study you quoted is irrelevant for football as different industry but since you like randomly quoting stuff;

 
Eerrr isn’t that exactly what’s been suggested we are doing? We’ve allegedly said any interested club would have to meet the release clause.
Man United we’re trying to get Sancho right to the end of the last summer window so that example goes entirely again what you appear to be suggesting which is shit the bed and sell cheap so it’s done and dusted.

I'm saying that we take the Dortmund approach and set a deadline for players, if we don't sell soon.

So would you be happy if Ramsdale and Berge leave on transfer deadline day at full value, or now for 90% of their value?

I'm saying I'd prefer the latter, reluctantly of course.

That's the question I'm asking to you and PokerBlade etc.
 
I know it's not even July and players are on international duty etc. though this Berge and Ramsdale thing is already turning into a rather tedious saga.

Personally I'd grudgingly accept £50 million for them both now which I think is fair, others may disagree with that figure but if it's going to happen it should be proactively arranged now.

I'm glad you're not making the decisions
 
Maybe wait until the manager turns up?

Ramsdale would be shooting himself in the foot if he went to Arsenal, the only upside is the pay packet.

He's fortuitously found himself in the England squad, to stay there he needs to play football, not do a Martinez and rot. Should we have a bad season, he'll be off, but his career can survive a Championship season. I don't think he wants to leave either.

I also feel like Berge would stay fairly happily if no fee can be agreed, he seems the sort to want to help us get back but whatever happens, he plays for a country that doesn't exist up the arse of the top domestic division, he has international teammates from second tier clubs, so it wouldn't harm his international career.

None of our players are on insane wages, and value wise for the most part, the players with rumours around them are all down on what we paid really, so surely we can afford to keep the squad together for one more season and a) have a good go at promotion and b) get the players values back up.
 
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I don't know if you remember me saying this to you before in a thread about Wilder but you're doing your thing again where you start with something bombastic and then walk it back to something trivial. And then you pretend you said the trivial uninteresting thing all along.

You've literally started a thread saying we need to sell players quickly, but now you want to retreat to this hypothetical of "IF we don't sell a player then MAYBE that player won't be happy, and MAYBE that will unbalance our squad" and then top it off with saying "There is no evidence of course" that this will actually happen.

Maybe our players are generally happy where they are, and maybe they'd be open to moves if offers came in but the club won't entertain less than our own valuation, and maybe you're just coming up with something to whine about?
It’s the motte and Bailey fallacy
 
So you're basically wanting Prince to have a Kevin McCabe mentality and just sell for cheap
 
I'm saying that we take the Dortmund approach and set a deadline for players, if we don't sell soon.

So would you be happy if Ramsdale and Berge leave on transfer deadline day at full value, or now for 90% of their value?

I'm saying I'd prefer the latter, reluctantly of course.

That's the question I'm asking to you and PokerBlade etc.
It depends on our circumstances

If we need the money then we can't put a deadline on it.
If we need the money we should certainly hold out for the maximum

If were not desperate then yes a deadline would be a good idea.
If we are not desperate we still should not accept less than 100% of what we want. Pick our valuation, set the deadline. The players move isn't blocked and we essentially put it in the buying clubs hands. If the move doesn't happen it shouldn't be us the player is unhappy with.
 
So you're basically wanting Prince to have a Kevin McCabe mentality and just sell for cheap

Rather than a Jeremy Peace approach yes if it means we can bring our targets in early and plan.

The other situation that comes to mind is Kevin McDonald. We spent the entire pre-season building a team around him then he left suddenly late in the window leaving us in the lurch. Wouldn't like the same to happen with Berge etc. would much rather if they were to leave for it to be sooner rather than later.
 
The days of McCabe running SUFC like a corner shop are over. It’s time we held onto these lads until their market value is met, and not before time. The market is firmly in our favour given the finances of 20-odd other Championship clubs who’ve had fuck all income for 14 months.
 
I'm saying that we take the Dortmund approach and set a deadline for players, if we don't sell soon.

So would you be happy if Ramsdale and Berge leave on transfer deadline day at full value, or now for 90% of their value?

I'm saying I'd prefer the latter, reluctantly of course.

That's the question I'm asking to you and PokerBlade etc.
They have minimum release clauses which we’ve said they have to meet, so pretty much just like Dortmund. What you are proposing is that now we’ve set that we immediately drop that demand and take millions less.
If a club meet the clause, be that on deadline day or any other time, there’s nothing we can do about it but you’re also suggesting is that we won’t have done anything with regards to lining up replacements which is a bit odd especially when we have alternates within our own squad who could step in if we didn’t want to go to market. The work on the new players started weeks ago, and Slav has already been involved. We aren’t likely to be throwing money around in fees anyway regardless of who we sell. It’ll be mainly loans which again we will have already likely have lined up.
 
I'm saying that we take the Dortmund approach and set a deadline for players, if we don't sell soon.

So would you be happy if Ramsdale and Berge leave on transfer deadline day at full value, or now for 90% of their value?

I'm saying I'd prefer the latter, reluctantly of course.

That's the question I'm asking to you and PokerBlade etc.
I don’t personally see this as quite the same as Dortmund.

They don’t need the cash.

So they can just say “pay 80m by July 10th or we keep him” because they are relatively ambivalent to the outcome. They’ll take the inconvenience of having to replace a player if the offer is too good to turn down otherwise they will just keep the player.

In our case, we need perhaps 40m. The advantage to us is that we are not just sat on one saleable asset. Berge, Ramsdale, McBurnie, Bogle have all been linked with other clubs, so it’s not as if Arsenal have us over a barrel as we could choose to simply sell other players and keep Berge nor are Arsenal the only club linked to our players. It’s also going to become clear that as some players start to move then the likes of Berge will rise up the list of targets. He might not be anyone’s no 1 but as Buendia gets snapped up, he moves up one rung at Arsenal, as Ceballos wishes to stay in Spain, he moves up 2, as Odegaard stays in Spain he moves up 3 etc.

Plus, 2 clubs who are at a level to bid for our players and have also been linked to some - Spurs and Everton - don’t even have managers yet and even with recruitment teams, not having the main man in place and knowing his preferred style will also cause delays. Palace also similar, not to mention our last manager is still out of work and finally the positions at West Brom, Fulham and Bournemouth are unstable, all of which may permit dome trading once their positions are resolved.

There is also the Euros. This is bound to delay some dominos falling over, given players will be tied up with their countries.

For those reasons, we need to be patient in my view. It’s not as if we are like Wednesday where we don’t have even a full squad. If anything, you can comfortably trim some elements of the squad further and you might be looking at less than a handful of new recruits so it isn’t a mass recruitment drive this summer.

In 2 weeks our own manager will be in place and I’m sure we will see increased player trading as the Euros reaches the final stages and more players are released from their National teams.
 
You would like to think they already have a plan laid out. Two things for me,do we spend as big as we can and be a major force or do we go with loans and hope to be a major force . Splashing out may mean the sale of a couple of players , loans mean we keep the same squad and top up.
Personally I don't know how the new manager likes to go but hopefully they are "on with it". Which ever way, this time next year we will know if they where successful.
 
I know it's not even July and players are on international duty etc. though this Berge and Ramsdale thing is already turning into a rather tedious saga.

Personally I'd grudgingly accept £50 million for them both now which I think is fair, others may disagree with that figure but if it's going to happen it should be proactively arranged now.

I get the impression that we are bickering over a few million here and there, and yeah we could hold out for more and wait but there's no guarantee.

And even if we did get a bit more a lot of time will have been wasted. Bournemouth (granted they didn't go back up but at least made the play-offs) sold Ake almost as soon as they were relegated: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53594421

I fear that they'll both go latish in the window and we'll be scrambling for replacements, and as other clubs know we have the windfall will raise their prices so we'll either overpay or be left with dregs.

Rather we go into July with £50 million in the bank and two players who won't be here being out the door, than have £60 million in August and playing catch-up.
Have we had a bid received for any of our players or is it purely media speculation? My understanding is you can't sell players unless a concrete offer is received and accepted not when a journalist writes about somebody's supposed interest. You talk about bickering over a few million I again point you to the fact we have had NO bids.
 
Have we had a bid received for any of our players or is it purely media speculation? My understanding is you can't sell players unless a concrete offer is received and accepted not when a journalist writes about somebody's supposed interest. You talk about bickering over a few million I again point you to the fact we have had NO bids.
This.
The club maintains that no bids have been received The club do not want, or need to sell anyone. Once the new manager is insitu, then (final) decisions might be easier.
Nothing is likely to happen until the current international competition is completed, and players return to their clubs.
Has anyone heard that the new manager wishes to speak to, and assess players currently at the club, before any decisions are made? That should take at least 14 days to be fair to him, and to the players. Wait until mid July before speculating any further please.
 
Rather than a Jeremy Peace approach yes if it means we can bring our targets in early and plan.

The other situation that comes to mind is Kevin McDonald. We spent the entire pre-season building a team around him then he left suddenly late in the window leaving us in the lurch. Wouldn't like the same to happen with Berge etc. would much rather if they were to leave for it to be sooner rather than later.
Because some donut wrote a 750k release clause into McDonalds contract. If we get Berges release fee I'd have no issue with it
 
I know it's not even July and players are on international duty etc. though this Berge and Ramsdale thing is already turning into a rather tedious saga.

Personally I'd grudgingly accept £50 million for them both now which I think is fair, others may disagree with that figure but if it's going to happen it should be proactively arranged now.

I get the impression that we are bickering over a few million here and there, and yeah we could hold out for more and wait but there's no guarantee.

And even if we did get a bit more a lot of time will have been wasted. Bournemouth (granted they didn't go back up but at least made the play-offs) sold Ake almost as soon as they were relegated: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53594421

I fear that they'll both go latish in the window and we'll be scrambling for replacements, and as other clubs know we have the windfall will raise their prices so we'll either overpay or be left with dregs.

Rather we go into July with £50 million in the bank and two players who won't be here being out the door, than have £60 million in August and playing catch-up.

With all respect mate, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Put simply, it is refreshing that we have some much sought after talent, but it is even more refreshing that we should recognise their worth, and what we are entitled to, and not settle for a penny less.

It's simple as that. If the days of the McCabe failings/grabbing the first bid going are long behind us, then we are much better off for it.
 
I know it's not even July and players are on international duty etc. though this Berge and Ramsdale thing is already turning into a rather tedious saga.

Personally I'd grudgingly accept £50 million for them both now which I think is fair, others may disagree with that figure but if it's going to happen it should be proactively arranged now.

I get the impression that we are bickering over a few million here and there, and yeah we could hold out for more and wait but there's no guarantee.

And even if we did get a bit more a lot of time will have been wasted. Bournemouth (granted they didn't go back up but at least made the play-offs) sold Ake almost as soon as they were relegated: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53594421

I fear that they'll both go latish in the window and we'll be scrambling for replacements, and as other clubs know we have the windfall will raise their prices so we'll either overpay or be left with dregs.

Rather we go into July with £50 million in the bank and two players who won't be here being out the door, than have £60 million in August and playing catch-up.
If macabe was here we would take 50m but there's a price the thing is the 35m for berge is a lump sum

But if we sell we need investment not loans
 

If macabe was here we would take 50m but there's a price the thing is the 35m for berge is a lump sum

But if we sell we need investment not loans
Just on that last point, why do we bearing in mind we have 5 loan slots in the match day squad?
 

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