How much influence are you happy for AI to have?

[Carlton Blade]

I suspect that people who are making AI their business are aware of this kind of thing, as someone mentions above, they weren’t expecting Wilder to be typing into Chat GPT “find me a good signing”.
Plus AI learns as it goes, so each subsequent decision should improve based on the outcome of the last one.

You'd hope so!!

 

[Chimpan-A]

The price is way beyond what we'd have paid if the AI model wasn't employed.

I'm in total agreement that there's nothing in the obvious statistics to back that up - you don't need AI to tell you that. AI tells you things that aren't obvious. That's why it's used. The question is how much it should sway your judgment. In this case I'm suggesting it did - by a long way.

It just happened to agree with what Wilder was thinking at the start of the season? Cannon was a Wilder target and he got him. AI didnt set the price, Leicester did.

 

[Frank the tank]

I've not really read the thread only the title and the first line of the opening post so I must stress this is not a pop at the Op
But people really need to educate themselves on AI
And what it can and cant do
We are coming across as cloth caps and ferrets luddites all from a couple of lines from the owners about data led strategy

The local press aren't helping either with some of the ludicrous hysteria they are printing
Im sure they are taking the piss

 

[SwissBlade]

It isn't. But the owners may well insist you carry out it's instructions to a level most people would be very surprised.

I'm very worried that the head coach is far from in charge now.

I don’t think that’s ever been said or implied

 

[alcoblade]

It just happened to agree with what Wilder was thinking at the start of the season? Cannon was a Wilder target and he got him. AI didnt set the price, Leicester did.

Wilder wanted him on loan, and we couldn't afford it then. Come January and with new owners, the AI model supported the decision to the point we paid far more than we otherwise would have done.

 

[alcoblade]

I don’t think that’s ever been said or implied

Sorry swizzler, can you explain a bit?

 

[Nick Jansky]

Wilder wanted him on loan, and we couldn't afford it then. The AI model supported the decision to the point we paid far more than we otherwise would have done.

So basically AI backed up Wilder’s thinking and we bought him for the price Leicester insisted on. We’ll know if we overpaid when we sell him, not before.

 

[SwissBlade]

We're using AI way beyond selection of potential transfer targets. I think people will be surprised (some excited, some terrified) by how far it will go beyond that.

Regarding transfers I'm "fairly certain" that the "computer says yes" answer has led us to pay way over the odds for at least one player.

Regarding team selection - it's already influencing matters. The selection of the managerial post has and will determine how far that goes.

Whilst I think there is an increase in its use to support what we’ve been doing for years with data, it’s most likely in the reduction of analysts required

Which player did we pay over the odds for because of AI?

Not sure we’re anywhere close to selecting a team based on AI or that the manager is losing his responsibilities

Again, there needs to be a full understanding of what AI does and how it is used within the club to really answer this on a forum and I don’t see that the first part is true yet and the second certainly is an unknown

 

[alcoblade]

So basically AI backed up Wilder’s thinking and we bought him for the price Leicester insisted on. We’ll know if we overpaid when we sell him, not before.

That's not to say that Wilder would himself have agreed to meet their valuation, but yes you're right only time will tell if it's a good price.

My overall concern isn't based around this signing, though I fear we've had our pants pulled down.

 

[SwissBlade]

Sorry swizzler, can you explain a bit?

I don’t think that the manager / head coach is losing his ability to pick the side. Unless you’ve got statements to back this up on team selections

 

[Eric_Brooks]

It’s like watching a load of 60 year old Andy Capps discussing AI.

Quite simply we are going to use all the data to hand to make a decision on players, including some people still being allowed to use their own brains. The other way is an old school manager approach where they want to go with players and staff they have worked with before, irrelevant will be whether they can still do it. The data will drive people on performance, whether they still have the legs etc;

We have had data analysts for years including Mike Allen. It’s not foreign to us, it’s just something we have ignored

 

[alcoblade]

Not sure we’re anywhere close to selecting a team based on AI or that the manager is losing his responsibilities

I fear we're getting much closer than you think - but who's to say it's a bad thing? I'd argue so, but that's the point of the discussion.

 

[jaybee]

I think AI reaffirmed confirmation bias. If you keep telling it you are going to play to a players specific strengths, it'll overvalue the player.

If you'd told it "we are going to surrender possession and use him as a lone forward" it'd have told you to run a mile. This is the ulissue with using AI. You are hostage to the context you give it

You’re talking about generative AI here where you can use natural language as the interface - it’s unlikely this is what is being used for these sorts of decisions, it’s the wrong tool for the job. When the club say AI/data driven approach they’re more likely on about machine learning models that have been trained on performance and transfer data that predict very specific attributes

Generative AI is eager to please so yes, it will generate output aligned with the way you’ve framed the question

 

[alcoblade]

It’s like watching a load of 60 year old Andy Capps discussing AI.

Quite simply we are going to use all the data to hand to make a decision on players, including some people still being allowed to use their own brains. The other way is an old school manager approach where they want to go with players and staff they have worked with before, irrelevant will be whether they can still do it. The data will drive people on performance, whether they still have the legs etc;

We have had data analysts for years including Mike Allen. It’s not foreign to us, it’s just something we have ignored

We signed (for example) Rak Saki based on Mike Allen's data analysis. We haven't ignored it.

 

[Carlton Blade]

You’re talking about generative AI here where you can use natural language as the interface - it’s unlikely this is what is being used for these sorts of decisions, it’s the wrong tool for the job. When the club say AI/data driven approach they’re more likely on about machine learning models that have been trained on performance and transfer data that predict very specific attributes

Generative AI is eager to please so yes, it will generate output aligned with the way you’ve framed the question

I understand that. But any output is only as good as the inputs and without context and bias, there's no data in the world that would indicate Cannon as a value signing with sell on potential at that price.

 

[SwissBlade]

That's not to say that Wilder would himself have agreed to meet their valuation, but yes you're right only time will tell if it's a good price.

My overall concern isn't based around this signing, though I fear we've had our pants pulled down.

The manager, Wilder doesn’t really have an input on the valuation. He provides the list of players he wants and why.

You’re right we wanted him (cannon) on loan in the summer and was one that got away because he went to Stoke and did well.

Dealing with Leicester for both Cannon and Choudhury was a nightmare by all accounts. They moved the goal posts a number of times, to the point where Choudhury was off and on. The Shea Charles situation helped that and we managed to get it over the line.

Cannon was different, I don’t think we identified another real target and we were desperate to get a goalscorer in. At the time he was in form and Leicester wanted to make a profit and drove the price up. It was stated the time that the data backed up what Wilder thought about the player.

The club wanted promotion and thought cannon would help seal it. January fees are generally higher anyway. As Nick Jansky said, we’ll know if we overpaid when his contract ends or we sell him

 

[SwissBlade]

I fear we're getting much closer than you think - but who's to say it's a bad thing? I'd argue so, but that's the point of the discussion.

That fear has to be based on something and I don’t see the evidence to support the fear. Not all round.

I’d argue that if you focus on the Data aspects and the automation of that to make the process more efficient then the AI is the latter part of the process rather than using AI to pick the team

 

[Cheeky Blade]

I’ll judge it the same as I judge a human manager, if we go up I’ll be happy and if not we’ll look at what can be improved/changed.

The question of ‘who actually picks the team’ is as old as football.

 

[Nick Jansky]

The manager, Wilder doesn’t really have an input on the valuation. He provides the list of players he wants and why.

You’re right we wanted him (cannon) on loan in the summer and was one that got away because he went to Stoke and did well.

Dealing with Leicester for both Cannon and Choudhury was a nightmare by all accounts. They moved the goal posts a number of times, to the point where Choudhury was off and on. The Shea Charles situation helped that and we managed to get it over the line.

Cannon was different, I don’t think we identified another real target and we were desperate to get a goalscorer in. At the time he was in form and Leicester wanted to make a profit and drove the price up. It was stated the time that the data backed up what Wilder thought about the player.

The club wanted promotion and thought cannon would help seal it. January fees are generally higher anyway. As Nick Jansky said, we’ll know if we overpaid when his contract ends or we sell him

To add to this, the signing of Traore was undoubtedly largely data driven and we made a profit on him.

 

[alcoblade]

To add to this, the signing of Traore was undoubtedly largely data driven and we made a profit on him.

Beyond that, the persistence with Jefferson Caccares is driven by data, despite the footballing professionals strongly disagreeing. The model may prove correct, and either way he's more more likely to appear now. For better or worse.

Let's see how this one pans out.

 

[Tarqs]

Data has been used in training, recruitment, tactics, team selection for 20 plus years.....

Rebrand 'Data' as AI and everyone shits their pants.

 

[Tarqs]

Beyond that, the persistence with Jefferson Caccares is driven by data, despite the footballing professionals strongly disagreeing. The model may prove correct, and either way he's more more likely to appear now. For better or worse.

Let's see how this one pans out.

Persistence? He's been here 5 months.

What footballing professionals have had input on the Cacares signing?

 

[alcoblade]

Data has been used in training, recruitment, tactics, team selection for 20 plus years.....

Rebrand 'Data' as AI and everyone shits their pants.

Well not everyone. But AI throws normal understanding into a cloud, to the point where the owners can justify pushing decisions onto management is a way a more data led approach can't. That may or may not be a good thing.

 

[alcoblade]

Persistence? He's been here 5 months.

What footballing professionals have had input on the Cacares signing?

I don't believe any professional had influence on the signing, but that's another point.

He wouldn't be remotely near a place in the under 21's without "outside influence".

 

[Tarqs]

Well not everyone. But AI throws normal understanding into a cloud, to the point where the owners can justify pushing decisions onto management is a way a more data led approach can't. That may it may not be a good thing.

As has been pointed out on numerous occasions.

It's all depending on what you're asking from it. Which requires human interaction.

It's not a massive Supercomputer Borg locked in a vault underneath the training ground that barks players at you.

 

[Tarqs]

I dint believe any professional had influence on the signing, but that's another point.

He wouldn't be remotely near a place in the under 21's without "outside influence".

Which can be said for 100s of other clubs around the world.

 

[alcoblade]

As has been pointed out on numerous occasions.

It's all depending on what you're asking from it. Which requires human interaction.

It's not a massive Supercomputer Borg locked in a vault underneath the training ground that barks players at you.

Nobody is suggesting so. It's gradually replacing management decisions, and being pushed by the owners onto the management. That's not debatable, or the point of the debate (certainly not mine). I'm questioning, and asking for opinions, on how far you'd let that process go.

 

[jaybee]

I understand that. But any output is only as good as the inputs and without context and bias, there's no data in the world that would indicate Cannon as a value signing with sell on potential at that price.

It depends on what relationships the ML model identified when it was trained - it’s very possible for it to find correlation where there’s no causation and that’s where having good data scientists and footballing domain knowledge are key when building these models.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

AI is a tool. Doesn't mean it's good or bad it's how you use it.

So far the evidence is we've accidentally drilled a hole in our hand with the Jefferson one but that doesn't mean the drill is bad.

 

[alcoblade]

Which can be said for 100s of other clubs around the world.

Quite possibly so. I find it very alarming, but others won't and there's no doubt it's where the world's heading.