How much influence are you happy for AI to have?

[Tarqs]

So which player is jefferson blocking who should be playing instead, according to which footballing professional?

Lots of questions here.

 

[Nick Jansky]

According to the model yes, not according to the football professionals. The argument should be about if that's right. Not if it's happening.

The football professionals are very fallible. Arguably, they get it wrong far more often than they get it right.

 

[Tarqs]

We were using data and AI long ago like most were. Rak Saki was signed in the back of it. Not because if Wilder.

So why are you only just flagging up a concern for AI?

 

[alcoblade]

The football professionals are very fallible. Arguably, they get it wrong far more often than they get it right.

No. Absolutely, that's what's both exciting (and terrifying) about shifting over to it more.

 

[Tarqs]

This whole debate has my head in a spin.

 

[alcoblade]

So why are you only just flagging up a concern for AI?

I have no concern for AI in itself, just the degree in which we hand over to it, which was the initial point of the thread. - to debate that.

I think youve missed my point and are spoiling for a fight. Let's leave it there fella.

 

[Carlton Blade]

This morning I'd suggest Jack Lester sits down at his computer and keys in : -

'How can I turn Brewster, Cannon and Moore into Mo Salah?'

Complicated surgery. It'd free up two squad spots but I'm not sure on the ethics of it

 

[Tarqs]

I have no concern for AI in itself, just the degree in which we hand over to it, which was the initial point of the thread. - to debate that.

I think youve missed my point and are spoiling for a fight. Let's leave it there fella.

Nope, I'm.just debating how far you think Ai dictates.

I presume you work for the club or have a close affiliate considering some of your statements.

 

[Carlton Blade]

I have no concern for AI in itself, just the degree in which we hand over to it, which was the initial point of the thread. - to debate that. I think youve missed oint of the thread thro

, and are spooning for a fight. Let's leave it there fella.

I agree that there needs to be a strong set of parameters it worksop and the yes/no needs to be discussed with additional context by humans. Unless you record every interaction between the people at the club, you can't understand the reaction the addition of a certain type of character may cause etc.

But I'm all fir the monitoring of physical performance and suggesting when playersneedrest, in depth analysis if player tendencies (United and opposition), improved video analysis, player comparisons across different leagues, understanding how building partnerships across the pitch can increase performance (and how to build them), detailed set pieces analysis, production of set pieces 'routines' etc. The possibilities for more in depth analysis are endless. But they still have to be fed to the players in a way that suits their individual learning styles. That needs significant human input

 

[alcoblade]

I agree that there needs to be a strong set of parameters it worksop and the yes/no needs to be discussed with additional context by humans. Unless you record every interaction between the people at the club, you can't understand the reaction the addition of a certain type of character may cause etc.

But I'm all fir the monitoring of physical performance and suggesting when playersneedrest, in depth analysis if player tendencies (United and opposition), improved video analysis, player comparisons across different leagues, understanding how building partnerships across the pitch can increase performance (and how to build them), detailed set pieces analysis, production of set pieces 'routines' etc. The possibilities for more in depth analysis are endless. But they still have to be fed to the players in a way that suits their individual learning styles. That needs significant human input

Yep, all those things, though presumably most of that is / was already in play.

It's the point at which you'd, for example, allow it to pick the striker for the coming match that really concerns me. I believe we're heading that way. It might be a masterstroke too.

 

[Nick Jansky]

No. Absolutely, that's what's both exciting (and terrifying) about shifting over to it more.

It’s an interesting debate. Somewhere, there will need to be a balance. Other clubs have found it.

For me, if it is to work well there has to still be a human element. But that human element will have to possess the humility and emotional maturity to accept that they are, indeed, fallible and often get it wrong. I think this is why Selles is now here rather than Wilder.

If AI can help to moderate the flawed thinking of human beings it has to be a positive thing. I expect it will consider variables and highlight strengths & weaknesses to a degree that humans might be incapable of.

For instance, AI has identified something in Caceres that the previous coaching regime haven’t recognised. Selles might rate him differently to Wilder. We won’t know which was right until he is either sold or graduates to the first team.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Yep, all those things, though presumably most if that was already in play.

It's the point at which you'd, for example, allow it to pick the striker for the coming match that really concerns me. I believe we're heading that way. It might be a masterstroke too.

How is it different from your assistant telling you a certain player suits a situation? I don't believe a coach with Selles reputation and career trajectory is signing up to put the cones out

 

[Carlton Blade]

Yep, all those things, though presumably most of that is / was already in play.

It's the point at which you'd, for example, allow it to pick the striker for the coming match that really concerns me. I believe we're heading that way. It might be a masterstroke too.

Those things are currently relying on the proficiency of your data team and their ability to translate content into a usable format. United, for example just don't have the staff for it

 

[alcoblade]

It’s an interesting debate. Somewhere, there will need to be a balance. Other clubs have found it.

For me, if it is to work well there has to still be a human element. But that human element will have to possess the humility and emotional maturity to accept that they are, indeed, fallible and often get it wrong. I think this is why Selles is now here rather than Wilder.

If AI can help to moderate the flawed thinking of human beings it has to be a positive thing. I expect it will consider variables and highlight strengths & weaknesses to a degree that humans might be incapable of.

For instance, AI has identified something in Caceres that the previous coaching regime haven’t recognised. Selles might rate him differently to Wilder. We won’t know which was right until he is either sold or graduates to the first team.

I believe AI based taam selection was being directed towards Wilder. He ignored it. I don'tt think Selles will be able to. Again, that may prove a good thing, though as an old head it really concerns me.

 

[ThirdGenBlade]

Data generation and analytics can be a wasteful distraction or it can take you to an entirely new level - it all depends on who is in control. If you take a look at the thread by ucandomagic on Helmy Eltoukhi, you’ll see that we have a world-champion level driver behind our wheel!

UTB & FTP!

 

[Nick Jansky]

It's the point at which you'd, for example, allow it to pick the striker for the coming match that really concerns me. I believe we're heading that way. It might be a masterstroke too.

It’s one possible outcome although not the likeliest in my opinion. I think future squads from which the head coach picks the team, based on form, fitness & tactics, will be formulated with a lot of AI input.

 

[alcoblade]

How is it different from your assistant telling you a certain player suits a situation? I don't believe a coach with Selles reputation and career trajectory is signing up to put the cones out

It isn't different and you can make a strong case for it. I wouldn't, but for a bunch of reasons I'd struggle to justify.

 

[alcoblade]

It’s one possible outcome although not the likeliest in my opinion.

I think it's much more likely than you think.

 

[Nick Jansky]

I think it's much more likely than you think.

But you’re not sharing with us why you think that, so we have no option but to disregard it.

 

[HVR]

So given that our old manager was ousted for a perceived lack of embracement of modern ways - particularly the new AI model - how much say should the new manager have?

For example, should management be forced to pick Jefferson Cacares for the under 21's?

How much should AI influence team selection for the first team?

Should AI be used to justify much larger fees for players than the manager would himself sanction?

It's quite an existential question you've posed there. And one we should ask ourselves in all aspects of our lives going forward. The relationship between humans - the cleverest and most powerful beings on earth, and intelligent technology - specifically one that is able to self learn and has unlimited data on humans via social media and other forms of data capture - what do we post, how do we react - what do we do in a national crisis - all being learnt by machines.
Do we want technology to get United promoted and playing in Europe - against other machine led teams, or are we happy and better off staying as we are with fallible humans in charge?

 

[ThirdGenBlade]

It's quite an existential question you've posed there. And one we should ask ourselves in all aspects of our lives going forward. The relationship between humans - the cleverest and most powerful beings on earth, and intelligent technology - specifically one that is able to self learn and has unlimited data on humans via social media and other forms of data capture - what do we post, how do we react - what do we do in a national crisis - all being learnt by machines.
Do we want technology to get United promoted and playing in Europe - against other machine led teams, or are we happy and better off staying as we are with fallible humans in charge?

Humans are always in charge. All data and analysis does, when used properly, is facilitate better decision-making by those humans.

I’m not sure about this stuff about fire and about the wheel though!

UTB & FTP!

 

[ISZA ⚔️]

I’m all in. Change the white rose to the chatgpt logo and United to UNAITED

Edit: SHEFFAILED UNITED may be more apt

 

[alcoblade]

But you’re not sharing with us why you think that, so we have no option but to disregard it.

Understood. Though I think some will take it as true, and they should.

As I say, the question I was posing was is it in itself a bad thing - given as you say, the fallibity of humans?

 

[s20Blade]

The lot. Players,managers, kiosks menu, bog roll,ticket prices.

 

[Old Programme seller]

I remember an interview with Arsene Wenger who was one of the first to use a computer program to identify potential signing I think it was for the first team players based around their stats and what ‘he’ wanted the player for ie goal scorer goal maker etc but then it was a matter of due diligence with videos to back it up and asking other coaches of their opinions I can’t think that things will have changed significantly just more specific stats I’m not sure that coaches are ready to let go yet of the visual checks.

 

[Eric_Brooks]

We signed (for example) Rak Saki based on Mike Allen's data analysis. We haven't ignored it.

Do you think considering tye fitness issues that Campbell was another Mike Allen pick? Tom Davies? The game has changed so much that you can’t rely on your eye.

 

[PrestwichBlade]

It is an interesting question relating to football as a whole, but as others have said, it seems you're asking the question based on 'something' you've heard, so we don't have the full context. I might be incorrect on that perception, but that's how it's coming over.

 

[Nick Jansky]

It is an interesting question relating to football as a whole, but as others have said, it seems you're asking the question based on 'something' you've heard, so we don't have the full context. I might be incorrect on that perception, but that's how it's coming over.

We would also need to be able to judge the plausibility of what alcoblade has heard, based on the credentials of whoever told him. If it was anyone close to Wilder or someone at the club whose job spec is being affected there might be an agenda at play that undermines the info.

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

I'm quite happy with AI sifting through thousands of pieces of data to identify players. My only concern is that the man currently doing it is a poker player in Las Vegas and not someone with a football background, to the best of my knowledge.

If we're signing development players this way then it's fine, but I still think weneed players still need to be watched either in person or from rewatching matches once there identified if we're going to target someone for the first team now.

I also think data analytics don't tell you everything. You could sign a player who makes 88% successful passes but will the data tell you that they were all sideways and backwards pointless, safety passes.

I also think our fans need to stop focusing on the AI part and view it more as data driven recruitment. The AI is merely speeding up the same process that a human would have done sifting through the same data.

 

[alcoblade]

It is an interesting question relating to football as a whole, but as others have said, it seems you're asking the question based on 'something' you've heard, so we don't have the full context. I might be incorrect on that perception, but that's how it's coming over.

It's based on something I've heard, which I can't go into, though I'm certain of its' validity.

But I'm not asking for you to believe me - you can just take it as a theoretical position against which we can discuss how far are we happy to let AI make decisions.