Evolution or Revolution

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Which will it be.

  • Evolution

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ChipButtyBlade

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The Need of the Many outweigh the Need of the One
When we reached the Premier League i understood that the double promotion winning team would evolve into something better with the right quality additions,but that never happened and with Wilder gone,it looks like we now need a revolution,or could the next manager still evolve this team,what do you think.
 

Weasel

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Big clear out needed. Certain players have got too comfortable and have shown they are no longer up to the job whilst some have shown that they may never be up to the job.

We need a bit of a churn of players now and probably need to look at changing 5 or 6 of the starting team for next season.

I'd be happy if we looked to move about 9 or 10 on, and brought in 7 or 8. Anyone out of contract in a month can all go for starters.
 

Weasel

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Apart from when it evolved into a team that chased a place in Europe?

Which has since evolved into a team of total wasters and shite. They had the plaudits and the rewards when it went well, but this seasons total shitshow negates any credit they had in the bank imo.

Time for a new man to be ruthless and move a lot of these players on and bring in his own players who don't have the scent of total failure from this season hanging over their heads.
 

stringer

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Which has since evolved into a team of total wasters and shite. They had the plaudits and the rewards when it went well, but this seasons total shitshow negates any credit they had in the bank imo.

Time for a new man to be ruthless and move a lot of these players on and bring in his own players who don't have the scent of total failure from this season hanging over their heads.
It has gone to shit, but that doesn't mean last season didn't happen. To say the side that came out of the Championship didn't evolve is rewriting history a little, when United were knocking on the door of the Champions League places when lockdown hit.
 

robbiez666

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No option for devolution?

Personally, I don't believe we'll have the money to have a clear-out or even to even evolve.

We really need a clear-out, this entire club from juniors up is based on playing a certain way and that way only. For that to change, every single age group has to change.

It seems pretty obvious that the owners know they can't afford a clear-out and are looking to employ a manager who will continue playing a similar formation and system.
 

nopigfansintown

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The team never really evolved significantly personnel wise from League one to the Prem. This is the major reason for relegation as we were essentially chasing three years of underinvestment with two years of Prem money. We had a culture at boardroom level that had allowed sale of all our best youngsters for pitiful money, which only compounded the difficulty of future competitiveness (Ramsdale, Calvert Lewin, Brooks, Adams). With the slight exception of the tactical switch to the flat three in the Prem, we never really evolved tactically. Why would you when you are successful? Injuries exposed the lack of depth, the first three years of underinvestment in the team, and the sale of the young players.

Going forward we need to have a churn of players. If I was in charge I'd be attempting to garner decent sums from the sale of predominantly older saleable assets (Stevens, Baldock, Norwood, Egan, Fleck, Mousset (special case) that may bring in decent fees. Sharp, Didzy and Bash are unlikely to bring in much so it is probably wise to stick with them, and dangle the carrot of an extension if we're successful next season. I'd also move on another LWB and bring Norrington Davies into the fold. I'm hoping we retain the more saleable and thus valuable young players - unless we're offered silly money. Any significant capital raised should go towards future saleable young assets that we can develop. Hopefully this would bring the wage bill down significantly, and give us scope to reshape the team. The out of contract players can all go for me.
I don't see our unique system outlasting the Wilder era, due both to the specific personnel needed to implement it, and the ongoing lack of strength in depth in these areas. Recruitment and retention should have in mind the future head coaches tactical preferences.
 
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Millhousesblade1889

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One of my good friends is a Stoke fan. He was a big fan or RND on arrival, his form has dropped off dramatically. He might be another one like Stevens that needs to regain form in pre season
 

robbiez666

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The team never really evolved significantly personnel wise from League one to the Prem. This is the major reason for relegation as we were essentially chasing three years of underinvestment with two years of Prem money. We had a culture at boardroom level that had allowed sale of all our best youngsters for pitiful money, which only compounded the difficulty of future competitiveness (Ramsdale, Calvert Lewin, Brooks, Adams). With the slight exception of the tactical switch to the flat three in the Prem, we never really evolved tactically. Why would you when you are successful? Injuries exposed the lack of depth, the first three years of underinvestment in the team, and the sale of the young players.

Going forward we need to have a churn of players. If I was in charge I'd be attempting to garner decent sums from the sale of predominantly older saleable assets (Stevens, Baldock, Norwood, Egan, Fleck, Mousset (special case)that may bring in decent fees. Sharp, Didzy and Bash are unlikely to bring in much so it is probably wise to stick with them and dangle the carrot of an extension if we're successful next season. I'd also move on another LWB and bring Norrington Davies into the fold. I'm hoping we retain the more saleable and thus valuable young players - unless we're offered silly money. Any significant capital raised should go towards future saleable young assets that we can develop. Hopefully this would bring the wage bill down significantly, and give us scope to reshape the team. The out of contract players can all go for me.
I don't see our unique system outlasting the Wilder era, due both to the specific personnel needed to implement it, and the ongoing lack of strength in depth in these areas. Recruitment and retention should have in mind the future head coaches preference.

I think the problem will be that no one in the championship has any money which is good if you're buying but not good if you're selling. Someone in the EPL might come in for Egan. Maybe Baldock (but given he's a wingback I suspect his lack of creativity will put clubs off). I would be surprised, in the current climate, if we get over a million for any of those others.
 

blade too long

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We .like any club have to continue evolving all the time. Personnel come and go but it's a team game and the task is to keep the decent players and replace those not fitting in or are ageing and need upgrading. Teams that's employed revolution are Charlton Bolton Sunderland and even little Bury tried splashing the cash.
Wilder managed to build a strong team with a bag of beads and some shiny objects. We just need a strong steady
manager with a plan . Some fresh blood throughout the squad and a calm outlook.
 

JonnyD

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At the moment, not really arsed if any of them go and I'd be actively annoyed if a few stayed.

I'd say of current crop can count on one hand the players who will play in Premier League again - for me Ramsdale & Berge are the only definites. However one or both likely be sold.

Other possibles... Are Egan and JOC but questions over JOCs recovery and Egan has been really poor of late and isn't the youngest. But that's about it.

A few of the younger players may be good enough one day (Bogle, Brewster, RND, even McB) but way off the standard at present.

The 'core' have genuinely been excellent on an upward trajectory with us, but have sadly peaked and can only see them getting worse and dropping down the divisions in the next couple of years (Bash, Norwood, Stevens, Fleck, Baldock, McG, Sharp)

On the increasingly unlikely assumption we get promoted first time of asking, wouldn't change the fact we'd need near enough a whole new starting 11 to be competitive the following year

Need a new direction, new set of ideas, new shape.

We had 4 years of a singular vision, singular way of playing which was unbelievable - however that fairy tale has now ended with Jack getting stomped on by the giant and has no more magic beans.

Viva la revolución.
 
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PokerBlade

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Squads need rebuilding over time. What needs to be consistent is some kind of vision for the way we play such that when players or managers change it's not a case of completely changing the direction of the club.

You need that consistency in order to develop the youth team to progress to the first team. You need it so that once every year or two you aren't needing to replace the entire first team. You need it so that the next manager comes in with some foundation to work with.

One of the disasters that clubs fall victim to is attempting to change the ethos of the club with every manager. It doesn't work. If we bring in a Bassett or a Warnock type then it means doing away with everything we have. And then if/when that doesn't work, or fans start wishing for a better style again, it means another huge change of direction.

Shake up the squad, yes. But the next manager should have a similar vision to what Wilder had going before it fell apart: high intensity, attacking football, with some skill and style to it. Reverting to the Blackwell days would really kill us and completely undo any progress we've made since the League One days.
 

bakeblade

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I think the problem will be that no one in the championship has any money which is good if you're buying but not good if you're selling. Someone in the EPL might come in for Egan. Maybe Baldock (but given he's a wingback I suspect his lack of creativity will put clubs off). I would be surprised, in the current climate, if we get over a million for any of those others.
Why would Egan or Baldock go to another Championship side? Either they go to the Premier league for big money or surely we keep them
 

Arcott

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It's a 3 year rebuild at the very least. The majority of the players have proved they aren't good enough for the prem and will be 2 years older at the (hopefully) next time we are in the prem. So all need replacing, there is no place for the likes of Steven's, Norwood, Basham (sad to say), Sharp, Mcgoldrick, probably Baldock and Jags in the squad if we make it back to the prem at the first time of asking. Add to this Rodwell, Robinson, Lowe, Burke, McBurnie, fodringham, moore, ampadu, Osborn, Moose, Lundstram and probably Berge who will all need replacing. This doesnt include saleable assets like Egan and O'Connell.

Fuck I've just depressed myself...think I should have just left it at major overhaul
 

BushBlade

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We’re going to get these players that everyone thinks are shit and sell them for enough cash to fund a rebuild?
I suspect we’ll be stuck with the majority of them and the new manager will have to get them performing again.

Is it impossible? No, we had a load of players we all thought were shit, like Basham, Coutts, Freeman, shipped a couple out, bought a couple of players, signed a couple of frees and got promoted. It’s not going to be easy and it will require a manager who’s focussed and can see the wood for the trees, one who understands that the key to the championship is consistent results, that sometimes you just have to grind a result out, but it’s certainly possible.

Our players are knackered, mentally and physically, trying to drag out performances when they know they’ve got little to play for, after a gruelling two seasons that must have been an emotional rollercoaster. Just as they overperformed last season, they’ve underperformed this season, they’re not as good as they looked just over a year ago, nor are they as bad as they look now. Don’t judge players on their best performance and don’t judge them on their worst.
 

L1AM_SUFC

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Our best chance of going straight back up is by keeping the majority of the first 11 the same. As dreadful as they've all been this season, we aren't going to change the majority of the first 11 and go up.

Look at Norwich last season, dreadful. Didn't they end the season by losing 10 in a row? Look where they are now.

A massive rebuild or clear out isn't going to happen. It would cost a fortune and would bring no guarantees that the players coming in would perform better (in the championship) than the ones they were replacing.

With Egan, Basham, oconell and Baldock (or Bogle)... We already have what should be a very good defence for the championship (I'd let Stevens go).

Fleck and Norwood will be more than adequate at that level. Everyone and their dog knows Norwoods flaws. But in the championship we're not likely to be having 30% possession and constantly being pressed are we.

Our strike force (if we create chances for them) should be good enough for the level below. Sharp, Mcgoldrick, mcburnie and Brewster (hopefully). Should see us score a decent amount of goals at that level if we get them the service.

In my opinion I think if we can sign 2 or 3 players to go straight into the first team we will be fine. Defence and attack looks OK and I just think we maybe need a LWB (if RND not fancied) and 2 midfielders.

Obviously some squad players will move on and we'll replace them with other squad players but in terms of a first 11... I don't think a massive rebuild is needed at all.
 

Greasy Chap Butty

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Problem with Revolution, and rip it up and start again is budget.
We'd need to be able to build a Championship winning team, PL ready, for whatever we got on outgoings, plus the parachute money.
Is that possible?
 

Blacksea

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The board have now taken control of the way the club is run and set a clear direction,that is we are going to try to emulate or out do,Brentford,Barnsley,Bournemouth,Watford,so let's see how good they are at it,from appointing managers to recruiting and selling players.
 

Champagneblade

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Problem we have is the clear gulf between the top flight and the one below.

The Championship is going to be the weakest financially that it's been for a long time.

Where we will get caught as you say is do you try to bring in the next batch of Fleck, Coutts, Duffy, Sharp, Egan etc to move onto the next stage or do you accept that, relative to our new peer group, where we are going to have 50-60% possession of not more, the current lot will still be quite capable at Champ level yet knowingly short at the level above.

I watched Forest and Wednesday at the weekend. It was dire. If that was Basham, O'Connell and Egan against Wednesday they could have rotated going for a fag break.

If some of Grabban's chances fell to even 35 year old Billy, he'd be sat at home with the match ball.

I think where Wilder came unstuck is that a great manager like Fergie could evolve his team into the next iteration without dropping standards. With us, the fall off in form just left a chasm that, if we are being generous, the new lads were 1-2 years off filling, and might never fill.
 

Eddie odd legs

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The team never really evolved significantly personnel wise from League one to the Prem. This is the major reason for relegation as we were essentially chasing three years of underinvestment with two years of Prem money. We had a culture at boardroom level that had allowed sale of all our best youngsters for pitiful money, which only compounded the difficulty of future competitiveness (Ramsdale, Calvert Lewin, Brooks, Adams). With the slight exception of the tactical switch to the flat three in the Prem, we never really evolved tactically. Why would you when you are successful? Injuries exposed the lack of depth, the first three years of underinvestment in the team, and the sale of the young players.

Going forward we need to have a churn of players. If I was in charge I'd be attempting to garner decent sums from the sale of predominantly older saleable assets (Stevens, Baldock, Norwood, Egan, Fleck, Mousset (special case) that may bring in decent fees. Sharp, Didzy and Bash are unlikely to bring in much so it is probably wise to stick with them, and dangle the carrot of an extension if we're successful next season. I'd also move on another LWB and bring Norrington Davies into the fold. I'm hoping we retain the more saleable and thus valuable young players - unless we're offered silly money. Any significant capital raised should go towards future saleable young assets that we can develop. Hopefully this would bring the wage bill down significantly, and give us scope to reshape the team. The out of contract players can all go for me.
I don't see our unique system outlasting the Wilder era, due both to the specific personnel needed to implement it, and the ongoing lack of strength in depth in these areas. Recruitment and retention should have in mind the future head coaches tactical preferences.
LIke your post.
There are a couple of points that need a bit more discussion. Firstly the flat back three & "overlapping" centre backs : I thought this was excellent when first back in the premiership but it didn't really stand the test of time. Just look at the performances from February / March last season. The opposition rumbled the tactics by pressuring the back line & wing backs - Newcastle (the 5th worst team in the division!) did the double over us by simply pushing on & having speedy forwards in Almiron & St Maximin. Mr Wilder refused to believe that his tactics were now "out of date" & the consequences we have witnessed this season. The signings have been disastrous mainly, IMO, because he insisted in the tactics staying in place & trying to make the players adopt to them rather than utilising the "talents"(?) to enhance the team performance. This again impacts on the team's belief in the those tactics & therefore the manager. All This is hindsight, I acknowledge, but the lessons must be learned by the Board etc & influence their appointee & the installation of a DoF.
Moving forward, I agree that any OoC players should be allowed to leave &, depending on the manager, which of the saleable assets should be retained. Using the Academy players in an organised manner can be beneficial both performance wise ( hopefully no more Lundstram types). If you're good enough you're old enough. Mr Wilder should be thanked for his efforts in getting us into the Premiership but again he has been responsible for not implementing change to his thinking & stubbornly refusing to see the writing on the wall.
 

nopigfansintown

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LIke your post.
There are a couple of points that need a bit more discussion. Firstly the flat back three & "overlapping" centre backs : I thought this was excellent when first back in the premiership but it didn't really stand the test of time. Just look at the performances from February / March last season. The opposition rumbled the tactics by pressuring the back line & wing backs - Newcastle (the 5th worst team in the division!) did the double over us by simply pushing on & having speedy forwards in Almiron & St Maximin. Mr Wilder refused to believe that his tactics were now "out of date" & the consequences we have witnessed this season. The signings have been disastrous mainly, IMO, because he insisted in the tactics staying in place & trying to make the players adopt to them rather than utilising the "talents"(?) to enhance the team performance. This again impacts on the team's belief in the those tactics & therefore the manager. All This is hindsight, I acknowledge, but the lessons must be learned by the Board etc & influence their appointee & the installation of a DoF.
Moving forward, I agree that any OoC players should be allowed to leave &, depending on the manager, which of the saleable assets should be retained. Using the Academy players in an organised manner can be beneficial both performance wise ( hopefully no more Lundstram types). If you're good enough you're old enough. Mr Wilder should be thanked for his efforts in getting us into the Premiership but again he has been responsible for not implementing change to his thinking & stubbornly refusing to see the writing on the wall.

I've heard this argument a lot, but no team has lined up differently to any team in the Championship or the first lockdown - they'd regularly match us up, flood the flanks or play wide forwards in between our wing backs and centre backs. What has happened is we haven't played that style since the first lockdown and JOC's injury/fitness issues. Instead we've played an orthordox flat back three and a flat midfield three that creates barely any overloads in any position. The natural result is the back three drops ever deeper and the midfield three drop deeper to defend them - effectively becoming a back eight. The deepest striker (usually Didzy) then has to help out the midfield and the strikers as we have ceded four fifths of the pitch for long spells.

This is compounded by our inability to change shape (usually 4-3-3/4-5-1 for a smaller Prem team) as we don't have centre backs suited to four at the back, or top athletic kids that can play on the break successfully; nor any quality wide forwards suited to a counter attacking team.
 

Eddie odd legs

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I've heard this argument a lot, but no team has lined up differently to any team in the Championship or the first lockdown - they'd regularly match us up, flood the flanks or play wide forwards in between our wing backs and centre backs. What has happened is we haven't played that style since the first lockdown and JOC's injury/fitness issues. Instead we've played an orthordox flat back three and a flat midfield three that creates barely any overloads in any position. The natural result is the back three drops ever deeper and the midfield three drop deeper to defend them - effectively becoming a back eight. The deepest striker (usually Didzy) then has to help out the midfield and the strikers as we have ceded four fifths of the pitch for long spells.

This is compounded by our inability to change shape (usually 4-3-3/4-5-1 for a smaller Prem team) as we don't have centre backs suited to four at the back, or top athletic kids that can play on the break successfully; nor any quality wide forwards suited to a counter attacking team.
Couldn't agree more but the outcome will be a bit like navel gazing if the board don't agree (with you) & appoint somebody who will be as perceptive. The ability to change shape is essential in any successful side & Mr Wilder's apparent inability to see that has been the reason for our relegation.
 

Toronto Blade

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We need a manager that knows how to gain promotion .
The board has take responsibility to get it right or resign if they fail. None of this bring my buddies in they will work for pittance, if it doesn't work with him we will try another. The parachute money only lasts so long. Don't blow it ,or do we drop to Lge 1 and try to find a buyer.
 

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