Denying a goal scoring opportunity

[The Crab]

I know it’s not relevant to the last man rule but it’s so far from goal that I think Baldock catches him too

I'd have fucking caught him and I was sat on a sofa in Wincobank in my scruffs.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

I agree in this instance I’m unsure what having multiple looks at this type of incident can do to help make the decision. He can see where baldock and Bryan are stood from 40 yards away he doesn’t need close ups or slow mo replays to help him make an intuitive gut decision.

It was purely a case of the VAR ref having a different opinion to the on-field ref. In a matter like this it is simply down to interpretation of the rules and a subjective decision because both had perfectly clear views of the same scene.
When the on-field ref has made a decision in real time without any slo-mo or replay to refer to and is then challenged by a colleague who has watched it several times, analysed it and seen it in slo-mo, he will never refute the VAR ref's decision.
This decision makes a mockery of the notion that the on-field referee is the one in control.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

You are in a minority of 1.

I know. I almost feel as if I am going crazy! I honestly feel the biggest mistake was giving the yellow to start with. Delighted it didn't cost us but I thought Joe Coles breakdown of it was very good. Tight either way but I side with it being a red as it was my gut reaction and imo also Jags!

 

[HoodedClaw]

It's nonsensical mate. But I "think" the reason for the difference is because of the double jeopardy rule. We got a penalty so the odds were stacked in our favour.

It's shit, but I think that's the reason.

Correct, if a pen is given then a goalscoring opportunity hasn’t been denied ...

Even if a pen is given the offending player should still be sent off if:
"a player commits an offence against an opponent within their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offending player is cautioned if the offence was an attempt to play the ball; in all other circumstances (e.g. holding, pulling, pushing, no possibility to play the ball etc.) the offending player must be sent off."

https://www.thefa.com/football-rule.../football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct

Personally don't think the Villa player had a chance of playing the ball.

 

[SwitchBLADE Smiles]

I genuinely can’t wait until we get relegated & have done with this dog shit division.

 

[Grey Blade]

There have been a few comments saying that the referee only saw stills on the pitch side screen. In the highlights first posted, the screen definitely shows a video replay. I'm sure I've seen a version of the Screen side pitch only showing stills. I didn't see the game live and I wonder if some of the highlights have been edited differently.

I still think the red card decision was wrong though!

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[Sean Thornton]

I'd have fucking caught him and I was sat on a sofa in Wincobank in my scruffs.

isnt Scruffs your cat?

 

[The Crab]

isnt Scruffs your cat?

She was, then she stole a sausage off my plate last Sunday. Now she's a hat...............

 

[Trigger Blade]

It was purely a case of the VAR ref having a different opinion to the on-field ref. In a matter like this it is simply down to interpretation of the rules and a subjective decision because both had perfectly clear views of the same scene.
When the on-field ref has made a decision in real time without any slo-mo or replay to refer to and is then challenged by a colleague who has watched it several times, analysed it and seen it in slo-mo, he will never refute the VAR ref's decision.
This decision makes a mockery of the notion that the on-field referee is the one in control.

Quite, I can’t recall any decision where VAR asks the ref to review on the monitor where the ref sticks with his decision. As soon as he walked across, we knew it would be red.

My big objection is that the VAR ref uses images to support his view, a bit like statistics can be used to prove anything.

 

[The Crab]

statistics can be used to prove anything.

Thats correct 88% of the time....................

 

[Scarebus]

I genuinely can’t wait until we get relegated & have done with this dog shit division.

Dermot Gallagher wears his old referee kit to bed.

 

[Large Mendonca]

I will offer a situation that might point to a solution in the future.

If VAR is here to stay then all we have ended up with is a subjective decision by the on field ref being replaced with a subjective decision by a Stockley Park ref - albeit with a lot more views - BUT wrong decisions, or more over, subjective decisions are still being made.

We've had numerous his season. If VAR had looked at the rear goal camera for Egan at Villa, he wouldn't have been sent off.

What needs to be done - and it's only down to money - is get an AI solution. AI would take out ANY emotion from the decision - the fact that little Sheff United playing big Arsenal away won't come into the decision - as we saw with Burke and luiz earlier in the season.

Let a computer system/program totally decide the decision - it would be a lot quicker than people deciding and anything to do with emotion would be removed from the decision making.

The football authorities have brought in technology - let the technology TOTALLY make the decision. Someone pick the phone up and get onto Microsoft !

UTB

There'd be a fucking "Big_6" update as soon as it was implemented, to colour match certain shirts

 

[Hamburg Blade]

I genuinely can’t wait until we get relegated & have done with this dog shit division.

So this fucker has decided el Ghazi (sp?) was "only a few steps" from the penalty area?!? And Bryan was 20 yds from Jags so he's out of it? What difference does it make how far away he is from Jags? Or even where the foul took place?
A few fucking steps????? I can't get my breath.
He's changing the facts to fit in with the red card decision.
What a shower of shit referees are turning out to be.

 

[Nelson1889]

A few steps and he's in the penalty area according to dermot?? Fucking prime Jonathan Edwards would struggle to get there in a few steps.

Bald twat. Always was, always will be!

 

[TheFlashingBlade]

We've been shit for long periods. Let me put that here first before I venture down a slippery slope. Yet look at what you could have won:

Villa + 1 point. Similar to today they could not break us down from open play.
Arsenal + 3 points. These are elite footballers. 86 minutes vs 10 men would have got the win. That's also setting aside Cebollos (sp) stood on Lunny's toe and it should have been a pen.
Leeds + 1 point. It was a foul on Berge in the build up. Where were the pitchside monitors then?
Liverpool + 1 point. Should have been a penalty on Berge.
Brighton + 2 points. Lundstram fully got the ball and other similar challenges have not been given as reds. Would have been a valuable win.
Chelsea +1 point. In the end Werner basically played the keeper, smashed into his face and if you examine closely it could have been a foul the other way given it was strikers knee to face.
Fulham +1 point. Keeper clattered Bogle. Any touch of the ball was with the standing leg with which he wasn't challenging and was only a consequence of Bogle winning the challenge. Should have been a red. Could even have been 3 points as there were 7 mins added time.

All a bit fantastical when put together I know. But these are a number of instances, all of which have gone against us which on their own merits could have been called differently and when put together would have created a 10 point swing.

We've struggled with injuries and consistency but were we sat on 24 points instead then you'd see us in with a chance. With our lack of depth we simply can't absorb the injuries and the appalling reffing which we've had to endure this season.

Taking the rose tinted glasses off now. But you take my point...

I've been doing an 'alternative' season where the 'fine margins' like this go in our favour rather than against us to see the difference it makes...

Meanwhile in a parallel universe... (Now updated to Chelsea at Home)

This universe is getting boring and more and more depressing so I’ve decided to jump ship and go into an alternative reality. So here I am on the Planet Finemargins, where things are much rosier. In the opening game of the 2020-21 season Sheffield United faced Wolves. After a nervy first six...

www.s24su.com

It's been done on a match-by-match basis and one important thing it fails to take into account is the confidence and momentum that a series of positive, or negative, results gives, or takes away, from a team. For instance, if we'd started the season off with three wins and a draw rather than four losses, we'd have gone into subsequent games with a VERY different mindset and been on a VERY different trajectory...

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Even if a pen is given the offending player should still be sent off if:
"a player commits an offence against an opponent within their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offending player is cautioned if the offence was an attempt to play the ball; in all other circumstances (e.g. holding, pulling, pushing, no possibility to play the ball etc.) the offending player must be sent off."

https://www.thefa.com/football-rule.../football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct

Personally don't think the Villa player had a chance of playing the ball.

Yes, I think this "double jeopardy" thing is starting to become a de facto rule, which is worrying if referees are applying it, as it doesn't seem to be in the rules at all.

 

[Auld Reekie Blade]

I genuinely can’t wait until we get relegated & have done with this dog shit division.

But Matty Cash would have got back to stop Saka. it’s the inconsistency the gets me.

 

[neverknowinglywrong]

Did he ref the England Wales game at the weekend? Seems like the same VAR?TMO as well.
Hopefully ? Jags can get the red overturned.

 

[Groucho Blade]

View attachment 107067

A few steps and he's in the penalty area according to dermot?? Fucking prime Jonathan Edwards would struggle to get there in a few steps.

Bald twat. Always was, always will be!

In that view not only does Bryan probably get back to cover, Baldock has him before then anyway...

 

[PokerBlade]

I genuinely can’t wait until we get relegated & have done with this dog shit division.

Thing is, and I've said this about any number of VAR and refereeing decisions, that's a perfectly valid interpretation. The problem is, there's always some interpretation that fits the ref's decision. What no one knows is what today's special understanding of the rules is going to actually be. So when we compare any incidents from other games we find each one has its own unique reading of the laws such that it's the right decision. Wildly different decisions in similar circumstances are "the right decision". The rules seem to develop in the vague hopes of sparing refs from criticism rather than to either improve the standard of refereeing or to actually make the game better.

Here's something I haven't heard anyone mention yet. First half, Martinez comes to punch the ball, misses, and hits Brewster instead. Brewster is seen giving a puzzled look to the ref. But, in spite of rules which I think with a charitable reading would say that might be a foul, it's so ingrained in us that football is played by a mix of convention and spontaneous interpretation that nobody other than Brewster even questions it. Then five minutes later a Villa player stoops for a header, Jags kicks the ball cleanly, and the ref gives a free kick for dangerous play.

Imagine if you met an outsider who didn't know football and they kept asking you questions about things like that. Why is Brewster not getting a penalty? And we're so far gone almost nobody even notices just how bizarre the game has become.

 

[Sheffsteel]

I genuinely can’t wait until we get relegated & have done with this dog shit division.

Dermot is a regular on the Sports bar on Talk Radio.
He always finds an angle to support the referee...every single time.

Even when we had our ghost goal disallowed away at Villa last season.
Dermot was STILL protecting the ref saying he can only ref based on the technology
and regards the technology he said it works 99.999% of time so it works.
He inferred that Sheff Utd should just put it down to “one of them things and bad luck”.

Regards the foul.....I said at the time to my friend whilst watching the game....Jags has been lucky because was a professional foul but too far out to be a red.
Under the rules it’s a yellow but when it’s deliberately stopping a chance then morally you can understand why someone would prefer a red card.

The commentators got it right....if it’s a yellow it’s lucky...but those are the rules.....whereas if it’s a red then it’s unlucky.
My arguement is more about how the evidence was presented to the ref.

I was fairly confident....watching it in real time.... it would be a yellow.
but when I saw the video stills I panicked....because you could see why someone might give a red....and I knew it was then a strong possibility.

VAR use stills regards offsides and whether there was contact etc.
However still can be so misleading and even inaccurate when trying to judge dangerous tackles or this goal scoring opportunity rule
because motion and intent is so important......a still won’t show motion or intent....so you also need normal speed video.

 

[BobbyDavison'sDebut]

View attachment 107067

A few steps and he's in the penalty area according to dermot?? Fucking prime Jonathan Edwards would struggle to get there in a few steps.

Bald twat. Always was, always will be!

What annoyed me as well was the free kick was taken at least 10 yards further forward such that a direct shot at goal was possible. You could see the mark in the pitch Jags made where the tackle was made. The free kick was allowed to be taken in the second 'line' section from the box. I would have been fuming if that had gone in.

 

[Slugger]

Problem for me with using the still is that it didn't show how slow the ball was moving. If you watch the incident back in real time, you can clearly see that the touch to take the ball past Jags is much too weak and the ball has slowed considerably.
On the other hand you can also see the speed at which Bryan is coming across.
It's more than probable that Bryan would have got across as a covering defender but not at all obvious from watching a still image.

 

[BanderSerge]

I genuinely can’t wait until we get relegated & have done with this dog shit division.

If you put his head in a stock and gave me a pair of steel cap boots, I wouldn’t lose a wink of sleep after repeatedly volleying his face. Corrupt company dwarf.

 

[Trigger Blade]

What annoyed me as well was the free kick was taken at least 10 yards further forward such that a direct shot at goal was possible. You could see the mark in the pitch Jags made where the tackle was made. The free kick was allowed to be taken in the second 'line' section from the box. I would have been fuming if that had gone in.

Just had a look at that, great spot! Those stripes are six yards wide and they took it over half way to the front of the next one and the mark is towards the back end of the stripe before!

The other thing I just noticed is the lucky break that El Ghazi got as the through ball hit him on the back and dropped perfectly for him, that took all the pace of it, it could have bounced anywhere. He was ducking to try and get out of the way and if it had missed him, the ball would have been away from him in the general direction of the sideline and Jags would just have needed to show down the line.

 

[benn5712]

Did he ref the England Wales game at the weekend? Seems like the same VAR?TMO as well.
Hopefully ? Jags can get the red overturned.

That French twat was looking for any reason to penalise England. Blatant bias

 

[PokerBlade]

What annoyed me as well was the free kick was taken at least 10 yards further forward such that a direct shot at goal was possible. You could see the mark in the pitch Jags made where the tackle was made. The free kick was allowed to be taken in the second 'line' section from the box. I would have been fuming if that had gone in.

The ball wasn't moved back even after the ref had just watched the incident on a replay. Just some basic standards would be nice.

 

[mcbladeface]

Looking forward to hearing Dermot tomorrow explaining how it was a totally justified red.

I genuinely can’t wait until we get relegated & have done with this dog shit division.

If Skybet let you bet on what was going to dribble out of this guys mouth each week, I could have made some money today. Then again it was pretty much nailed on so probably would've been terrible odds.

 

[BarcaBlade]

I will offer a situation that might point to a solution in the future.

If VAR is here to stay then all we have ended up with is a subjective decision by the on field ref being replaced with a subjective decision by a Stockley Park ref - albeit with a lot more views - BUT wrong decisions, or more over, subjective decisions are still being made.

We've had numerous his season. If VAR had looked at the rear goal camera for Egan at Villa, he wouldn't have been sent off.

What needs to be done - and it's only down to money - is get an AI solution. AI would take out ANY emotion from the decision - the fact that little Sheff United playing big Arsenal away won't come into the decision - as we saw with Burke and luiz earlier in the season.

Let a computer system/program totally decide the decision - it would be a lot quicker than people deciding and anything to do with emotion would be removed from the decision making.

The football authorities have brought in technology - let the technology TOTALLY make the decision. Someone pick the phone up and get onto Microsoft !

UTB

Somebody would need to switch it on though...

 

[BarcaBlade]

I know. I almost feel as if I am going crazy! I honestly feel the biggest mistake was giving the yellow to start with. Delighted it didn't cost us but I thought Joe Coles breakdown of it was very good. Tight either way but I side with it being a red as it was my gut reaction and imo also Jags!

Minority of 2. I thought he was a goner in the moment, was mightily relieved he'd got away with a yellow, and then was gutted that VAR had the option to review as they would get a clear view that he was through on goal.

But I couldn't see Villa scoring in any case and Jags was due a rest. If we can get it overturned...