Clough out? A good article on the issue

[yorkshirecoast]

I think if we miss out Clough will be sacked and rightly so.

Cup runs apart the football has generally been abysmal. The negative approach to home games in particular has been disgraceful. He has been found wanting on signings and team selection too. The failure to strengthen in central defence is astonishing.

Even if we do go up Clough needs to change his approach to games - and improve his signings.

 

[alcoblade]

I think we tried the alternative a few times and that worked out well:-(. I'm all for a long term building plan for a change!

See my post above. You have cause and effect mixed up, in my opinion. We can, of course, go with stability and statistics - allowing Clough his standard 17 years to achieve promotion.



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[Woodwardfan]

4 reasons

1) I didn't want to bore everyone else with your obviously pointed comment aimed at Simon Clough
2) Apart from that I didn't see anything worthy of contrary comment.
3) I agreed with some of it as well, as I usually do with you.
4) Go call 999 having read point 3

I rang 999 and they told me I was a timewaster! They said you couldn't possibly have to find something contrary in order to comment on my posts ( your points 2 and 3). I said I'd keep them posted but might well require an ambulance one day and double medication

 

[zablade]

Simple question to everyone who wants Clough to still be the manager next seaon if / when we don't go up?

How long do you give him?

If we don't go up next season do we have the same debate again next May? and then again the season after that? How long do you think is acceptable to keep somone simply on the grounds of maintaining stability? Even if it means we become an established Lower league club, that's if we aren't an established lower league club already!

Of course this becomes mute if we do win promotion this season or next....

.....however the one Blades related matter thing that keeps me awake at night and has done ever since we appointed Clough... No League promotions on his CV.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

As I think you know, I have not advocated sacking the manager before he has had a chance to prove himself next season. Any manager needs a sensible length of time to prove himself a failure if you like and the sad thing is that it's all in the balance for Clough when we thought he would build on last season and get us promoted automatically this season.

I have said promotion now might really expose the manager and the squad next season and I believe that.

I have also said that the Board have invested so much in Clough and his people that it would be too expensive to unravel it all at this early stage. Nevertheless the Board will be praying to their God with all their might that Clough does come through because by the time he fails, should he fail, he will have spent a lot more of their money and so many contracts will have to be settled. I don't think a Clough sacking is on the agenda before the end of next season even if we are not assured promotion come Xmas. If we are rooted at the foot of the Championship though, it might be different.

Fingers crossed Clough comes good. If we scout better players his job will be a lot easier.

BTW. I invited you to put me on " ignore". I wouldn't dare put you on it, I'd wonder what you were calling me!

Woody , promotion would not expose the manager and squad . The exposure we would have , is a better club , squad and something for us fans to enjoy . IMO lets worry about things when we get there . Either way he will build the squad again , so we might as well do it in the league above , and attract a higher calibre of players.

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[sheffielder]

I don't think it's been garbage. Enjoyed this season a lot. With obvious exceptions and frustrations.

That's fine, we just have different standards

 

[metalblade]

I would go along with keeping Clough if I thought he could change his ways, I think everyone here agrees he has made mistakes this season some of them huge ones, the thing is he was making the same errors when manager at Derby ....................... we were warned. If we fail in the play off the board must think very long and hard as to whether he is the right man to take the club forward.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

That's fine, we just have different standards

Different opinions.

Don't think it's about standards. It's not that I am enjoying it bc it's shite but my standards are so low I don't care: I'm enjoying it bc generally I like the style of football - though there have been frustrations and disappointments.

 

[alcoblade]

Different opinions.

Don't think it's about standards. It's not that I am enjoying it bc it's shite but my standards are so low I don't care: I'm enjoying it bc generally I like the style of football - though there have been frustrations and disappointments.

Fair enough, be then your point is presumably that you'd be reasonably happy to continue indefinitley in the third division as long as we continued with this brand of football (why not if you're enjoying it?).

You are entirely entitled to think that way, but it makes the debate about sticking with the manager or not a bit of a moot one.


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[Woodwardfan]

I would go along with keeping Clough if I thought he could change his ways, I think everyone here agrees he has made mistakes this season some of them huge ones, the thing is he was making the same errors when manager at Derby ....................... we were warned. If we fail in the play off the board must think very long and hard as to whether he is the right man to take the club forward.

Three things which keep recurring in my mind are:

1. Rampage's post on here in October 2013 "Clough - a view from a Derby fan" which rings so true today re signings, playing style, caution, substitutions etc.
2. Derby decided Clough couldn't take them any further and/or didn't trust him with their next wedge of money
3. One non-league promotion in 17 years management is dire.

This season was almost predictable.

 

[him behind you]

I think every fan would agree that stability is the key to success in a football club. However stability with the wrong manager must be the worst case scenario.

Find the right manager, back him and stick with him. I think the Board thought they had the right man and probably still do, though there are forced to be doubts in there now.

How long do you give a manager to decide whether or not he is the right man to stick with? I'm not saying we'd have been better sticking with them but our recent record of quick sackings is hardly evidence that a season or so is enough

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Fair enough, be then your point is presumably that you'd be reasonably happy to continue indefinitley in the third division as long as we continued with this brand of football (why not if you're enjoying it?).

You are entirely entitled to think that way, but it makes the debate about sticking with the manager or not a bit of a moot one.


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I can feel a picture of Worzel Gummidge coming on.

 

[alcoblade]

How long do you give a manager to decide whether or not he is the right man to stick with? I'm not saying we'd have been better sticking with them but our recent record of quick sackings is hardly evidence that a season or so is enough

Wilson and Weir are simply wank managers. We should question why we employed them, not why we didn;t give them longer.

It's about track record. You have to poach them and it costs. If you've got 2 milion for a right back, you should be able to do it.

Portsmouth, without a financial backer, look likely to do it from a club a division higher. Maybe they've learned a lesson?

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[alcoblade]

I can feel a picture of Worzel Gummidge coming on.

You've lost me?

 

[HillmortonBlade]

You've lost me?

I'm glad it's not just me.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Straw Man (aka Aunt Sally): Basically you make set up a previously non-existent argument and then knock it down.

eg Happy in Div 3 indefinitely etc etc.

Returning the favour: Presumably you'd be unhappy if we stormed the League with 100 points next season playing the same style to a better standard. Makes sense if you're unhappy. You are entitled to think that way but it makes the point about changing managers moot.

 

[Harry's Game]

Article full of truisms and typical of any local newspaper that doesn't want to upset the manager of a local club who they need to get interviews from to sell their rag.

Nothing special about it and a glaring fatial error regarding Reed.

 

[him behind you]

I'm one of the few who think we probably sacked Wilson too soon but I can't argue about the rest.

The problem we have is that with our recent history with how managers have been treat and supported (by the board) we're limited to the level of journeymen who may have had the odd one or two decent seasons with a single club. I honestly can't think who we could realistically attract that would make me think we meant business.

There is a bit of a worrying trend with our recent managers too. Blackwell, Wilson and now clough all had us excited with the style and results in their first season (or part season) but then went on to bore us to death in the next one. Maybe they are put under so much pressure that they are scared to lose?

 

[secretchief]

I like Biggs, but this is not a good article, and none of these thing constitute sound reasons

n This is United’s FOURTH season in the third tier.

Not a point, despite the fact that for no reason 'fourth' is capitalized. I don't even know what kind of point is trying to be made here

n He is unfairly burdened with the build up of frustration from the other three.

This is rubbish. He had good feeling piled up in the bank because he wasn't David Weir. If he hadn't followed the most incompetent manager in our history the awkward questions would have started far sooner. The frustration of being in this division is of course tangible. But when a progressive, attacking assault on the title is being built (a la Bristol City), it's quite funny how this frustration dissipates.

n He has been manager for just 18 months, starting with an unthinkable relegation threat.

Cotterill's achievements this season at Bristol City have made a nonsense of this argument.

n A phenomenal record in the cups, including two semi-finals, appears to have been conveniently forgotten.

The standing ovation at Wembley, something that will live with me forever, was somewhat eclipsed by seeing the pathetic, humiliating shit we served up at home to Fleetwood, I will admit. How 'convenient' of me.

n Well, just look at an overall win ratio of nearly 50%.

Not in the league this year, and you need 90+ points to get promotion from this league. As has been mentioned elsewhere, the statistical analysis clearly shows Clough's points per game total diminishing.

n Now to even bigger reasons. United’s recent history shows that little or nothing is achieved by chopping and changing.

I have been hearing all week on this message board from people keen to discount our pathetic (soon to be historically bad) playoff record that 'appeals to history' are pointless and stupid.

n It is expensive and disruptive.

Not if you are taking the long view, and the next manager can get us up at the next opportunity. Then it saves money. And bad tactic and strategic practices should be disrupted.

n If you think you have a good man, you let him lay down foundations, accept this takes a little time and back him for more than one full season.

There's little this season that suggests he can get a 90+ point haul, which is what we need. And he has already had three transfer windows, while we are still on the topic of expense.

n And when it comes to foundations at the Lane, these are deep-rooted. No other United manager in my experience has devoted more time to watching junior games or to tending the club’s football operation from bottom to top.

Dave Jones was famous for not even watching the Pig's first team train while he was masterminding their leap over us.

 

[Davie Blade]

''Not if the club wants to benefit ultimately from the very talented and able squad Clough has assembled.''

What team is that please Alan Biggs?
What utter ****e

It is a hugely unbalanced over-bloated squad that is unsustainable and needs a massive overhaul.
That is the reality, as it's one that is nowhere near good enough to go up in the autos or even stay in the championship.
That is what he has been allowed by the board as a''manager' 'to assemble.

Let me address your points Alan.
But Clough’s critics overlook all of this;-

''n This is United’s FOURTH season in the third tier.''
Answer and every season we have got worse.This season has seen some of our worst ever displays with near zero entertainment value.
Every year we've been bigger than just about every other club,in the division so the financial advantage of being able to get afford better players should be a cumulative.one.
Glass half full or half empty.

''n He is unfairly burdened with the build up of frustration from the other three.''
Answer see above.

''n He has been manager for just 18 months, starting with an unthinkable relegation threat.''
Answer As did Steve Cotterill, who started from even further back with Bristol City but recruited and built wisely.
I've seen no evidence at all that Clough has done this.
Only waste unbalance, petty poor man management a scouting system that is so amateur that word doesn't even begin to describe it.
I certainly do not recognise this squad as anything like able.
There's some talent undoubtedly and Clough is not getting it all out consistently.
Nor do his tactics, endless swapping of the side, and team set up suggest he ever will.

''n A phenomenal record in the cups, including two semi-finals, appears to have been conveniently forgotten.''

Whoopy dee Clough had an abysmal record in the cup at Derby. Even going out to non league Crawley.
Sometimes you need a lot of luck in a cup run.
It only highlights the squandering of the money from those runs on so many bang average players..

''n Well, just look at an overall win ratio of nearly 50%.''

The cup runs mask the scale of failure in the League.

His overall League 1 record is 46%, this season it is 42%
Compare that to Swindon, MK 58%, PNE and Bristol 62%, all miles over 50%,
That is the benchmark and he fails it by a huge margin.
It is nowhere near good enough.
We would need an extra 22 to 24 points extra to get automatic promotion, next season, that is the scale of Clough's underachievement.
I've said before, our points total of 70 wouldn't usually have even got us into the play-offs, in most 'normal' seasons.
This season the gap between a relegation and play-off place is a tiny 18 points.
That is an all time historical low EVER in this leagues, because most of the sides have been beating each other.

One more statistic which for me is totally damning and demonstrates how far he is from building success
I hope the Prince, Jim and Kevin take notice

Out his 78 league games a mere 13 have been won by 2 clear goals!

No Alan you are right I haven't pinned my knee jerk judgement on the next 2 or 3 game, it's a over a lot longer period.

 

[alcoblade]

Straw Man (aka Aunt Sally): Basically you make set up a previously non-existent argument and then knock it down.

eg Happy in Div 3 indefinitely etc etc.

Returning the favour: Presumably you'd be unhappy if we stormed the League with 100 points next season playing the same style to a better standard. Makes sense if you're unhappy. You are entitled to think that way but it makes the point about changing managers moot.

I thought that might be it, but I don't agree.

I think if we'd currently delivered a brand of football I was happy with after (presumably) not being, then, I might well be inclined to stick with it. Afterall, as a club like most others, we'll never actually win anything, so league position isn;t that important.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Do we really disagree that much? Let's reverse 18 months to a point where we know nothing about what Clough will deliver. If I were to state (as I still do) that given our huge gates and financial backing, we should give the manager 2 years - would you disagree?

My boredom / your excitement along the way probably hasn't changed our opinions much - unless you'd give the manager much more than 2 years?

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[BerksBlade]

At the end of last season I thought we'd finally found the right man to take the club forward and build a foundation for future success. All that optimism has now gone, and Nigel has the demeanour of a man fulfilling a contract, rather than running a club he loves. Player recruitment has been a joke, and we will finish miles away from the automatic promotion place which should have been achievable with our resources.
But who else would we bring in? We've tried big names (Robson), Bladey Blades (Adams) and new names (Weir) with no success. Adkins possibly?

 

[Davie Blade]

I don't think it's been garbage. Enjoyed this season a lot. With obvious exceptions and frustrations.

Where do you go drinking before the match?

I want some of that.

 

[alcoblade]

At the end of last season I thought we'd finally found the right man to take the club forward and build a foundation for future success. All that optimism has now gone, and Nigel has the demeanour of a man fulfilling a contract, rather than running a club he loves. Player recruitment has been a joke, and we will finish miles away from the automatic promotion place which should have been achievable with our resources.
But who else would we bring in? We've tried big names (Robson), Bladey Blades (Adams) and new names (Weir) with no success. Adkins possibly?

Adkins. Cook. Warburton (if only).

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[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Wilson and Weir are simply wank managers. We should question why we employed them, not why we didn;t give them longer.

It's about track record. You have to poach them and it costs. If you've got 2 milion for a right back, you should be able to do it.

Portsmouth, without a financial backer, look likely to do it from a club a division higher. Maybe they've learned a lesson?

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alco , hit the nail on the head . Although perhaps you could take Bassett and Warnock out of the equation , we have never gone for a up and coming manager with real pedigree , where you have to pay the going rate or above , to obtain class and the right CV.

Some perhaps argue that Kendall and Robson at the time were the right calibre, with there CV . What nobody checked was there character , and like a bottle of milk in the fridge that has gone off - past there usefulness and sell buy date.

Perhaps going for the cheap option in the past every time , has got us where we are , and unfortunately , what we only deserve.

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[raul]

I expect us to remain in League One and I also expect NC to carry a narrow vote in his favour to continue next year, but surely no-one will be advocating we have this discussion in a years time if nothing has changed? Three years'll be enough for all concerned won't it?

If/as/when it goes wrong at Norwich (possibly by next Feb if they go up this year and fail to build on it) this man please. Used to managing teams of short-arsed Caledonians too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Neil_(footballer)

 

[Benny and the Blades]

alcoblade, I don't know but he's defiantly of the opinion that only his opinion counts, Woody, isn't he the guy who was willing to follow Weir into div 2 to changed the long ball philosophy at the lane ?
The only thing that is a certainty in all this is that we may be able to get rid of Nigel ( some thing I'm against ) as we did Weir ( some thing I was in favor of ) but it will be the same people picking the next one...

 

[alcoblade]

alcoblade, I don't know but he's defiantly of the opinion that only his opinion counts, Woody, isn't he the guy who was willing to follow Weir into div 2 to changed the long ball philosophy at the lane ?
The only thing that is a certainty in all this is that we may be able to get rid of Nigel ( some thing I'm against ) as we did Weir ( some thing I was in favor of ) but it will be the same people picking the next one...

You have your opinion and you state it. If you (I) weren't interested in others then why would you ( or I) come on here and debate it?

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[Benny and the Blades]

I.

I expect season ticket sales to be decimated, despite really good efforts by the club. The first few months of next season could be some of the most depressing in my 40 years of supporting us.

It will be interesting to see how this opinion works out ...........

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[alcoblade]

I'll be delighted if, as it seems, I'm wrong on this. Same goes for my opinion on Clough, which is why I would still give him time.

Oh course much of this isn't opinion, just prediction and being right or wrong later.

What is fact is that I am bored with our current style of football. Nobody else's opinion counts on the entertainment I feel, as it doesn't on yours.

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