Nigel Clough - "I Didn't Fail"

[BushBlade]

I thought they were in the Scottish first division? What ever league they are in, it can't be worse or much worse than what we are currently playing at now.

Second tier. I think they call it the championship. It's shit though. They show games on BT occasionally.

It can definitely be worse. I watch Conference as well. There's a lot of football out there worse than L1.

 

[Woodwardfan]

We had finished every season lower in the football league than the season before since 2009 until Clough steadied us. I think the Maguire sale hurt Clough more than anything else. Rather than going into the new season with an established and competent defence we had a mess which he couldn't sort. Falling out with Butler didn't help. I think he'd learnt lessons though and would have got us well prepared for this season (e.g. not signing Holt, knew we needed more height and strenght in midfield, rumoured signings were promising)

"Learned lessons" after umpteen years in management (15 plus?) - that's not what we appointed him for!! I suppose we never stop learning but sometimes certain people just cannot avoid confrontation and some will always bear a grudge.

By the way, Holt scored again last night and now has 5 goals already this season.

 

[wizadry]

Second tier. I think they call it the championship. It's shit though. They show games on BT occasionally.

It can definitely be worse. I watch Conference as well. There's a lot of football out there worse than L1.

Yes there is BB and i watch it too. I think we'll beg to differ on this one though as i really don't see too much difference in the standards of their respective leagues. I'm not saying Holt is brilliant 'btw', i just think we could do a lot worse than get a goal scoring Scougall.

 

[Lane Ender]

Yes there is BB and i watch it too. I think we'll beg to differ on this one though as i really don't see too much difference in the standards of their respective leagues. I'm not saying Holt is brilliant 'btw', i just think we could do a lot worse than get a goal scoring Scougall.

Holt did get a few goals but he brought very else to the table.
We need better than him to move forward

 

[OllyBlade]

Who needs midfielders that can score goals when you have our stalwarts

He had 5 in 11 starts for us and he has 6 in 14 starts for Rangers, i mean he must be wank and Clough could see that. Fuck goals, lets get some tall strong fucker who runs around a lot. I honestly think some of our fans are in that much of a trance they forget that you have to score goals to win games. To be fair, Clough did a great job to get them in that trance.

Who were the rumoured signings Olly?

Having looked over old Rumour Mill posts I think I'm making things up

I didn't mind Holt either (far more effective than Scougall was last season, for example) but I remember at the time thinking that Clough's comments showed he had a strategy to improve us and he was going to be more ruthless about what the squad needed.

"Learned lessons" after umpteen years in management (15 plus?) - that's not what we appointed him for!! I suppose we never stop learning but sometimes certain people just cannot avoid confrontation and some will always bear a grudge.

By the way, Holt scored again last night and now has 5 goals already this season.

We appointed him when we were in the bottom 4 of this division, to stabilise and then build for promotion and eventually get promoted. He fulfilled the first bit of his brief with honours and was sacked before being able to deliver the second. So what if he was confrontational or bore a grudge? He got this club going again and we actually finished higher in the league than the season before for once. Fancy that, improvement. We decided that was no fun so we're back onto instability and endless regression now. But it's OK because good 'ol Neill Collins doesn't have anyone being mean to him any more.

 

[wizadry]

Holt did get a few goals but he brought very else to the table.
We need better than him to move forward

Scougall has scored 3 in 37 starts, Holt got 5 from 11 starts, need i say any more mate on the point i was trying to make?

 

[Lane Ender]

Scougall has scored 3 in 37 starts, Holt got 5 from 11 starts, need i say any more mate on the point i was trying to make?

Fair point I just didn't think he was a good footballer Scougall had that spell under Clough now he's awful

 

[Woodwardfan]

Having looked over old Rumour Mill posts I think I'm making things up

I didn't mind Holt either (far more effective than Scougall was last season, for example) but I remember at the time thinking that Clough's comments showed he had a strategy to improve us and he was going to be more ruthless about what the squad needed.



We appointed him when we were in the bottom 4 of this division, to stabilise and then build for promotion and eventually get promoted. He fulfilled the first bit of his brief with honours and was sacked before being able to deliver the second. So what if he was confrontational or bore a grudge? He got this club going again and we actually finished higher in the league than the season before for once. Fancy that, improvement. We decided that was no fun so we're back onto instability and endless regression now. But it's OK because good 'ol Neill Collins doesn't have anyone being mean to him any more.

He succeeded a manager who had to reduce the wage bill substantially and he was given a big budget.

He did very well for his first part season, hardly put a foot wrong in fact. In his second season he hardly put a foot right, he blew the first and second tranches of the prince's money. That's why he failed.

 

[HighfieldBlade]

3 nil down to Swindon on 19 minutes was a failure,

That was definitely one of those "Is this really happening?" moments.

 

[Pittsburg Blade]

Swiss is going to be all over this like a wank sock

Swiss displays his sock

 

[TJB.]

Fact is no one knows but plenty are ready to assume because it suits their agenda. Brayford and Done were Clough signings. In the same way McDonald being sold sank Weir, McGuire being sold sank Clough, it could be the sale of Murphy that sinks Adkins.

Ih and isnt McNulty on loan right now? Hardly the chosen one now is he?

You may not want to hear it but on evidence changing managers doesnt work. Look where we are. We keep channging but we keep slipping backwards.

You seem to give off some kind of assumption there that I have some kind of agenda against Clough. I don't.

You say what would've happened if he'd stayed is just an assumption, which is true in principle, but I know on evidence from what he did with us and what he did at Derby that he wouldn't have changed his ways. As I said, you can't go into games to defend a point and look patiently to nick 3 from one or two goals and expect to win the league.

It doesn't happen. You need to go at teams every time to get out of any league. We didn't do that under him.

Again, without an agenda or a bias, it's an absolute fact that he failed in his objective as manager.

Changing managers often has done us no favours at all, but NA has a cracking track record and he needs to be given a chance to get it right. Clough had a cracking chance at the start of last summer. Instead we got McEveley, Higdon and a brand of football that could send a pilled-up raver to sleep.

 

[Bladesway]

Well we've been over this laboriously but it's severely misleading to suggest that going from 7th to 5th represents an improvement because his points per game total was so far superior in the first season to the second. The ppg total during his second season represented a significant regression and he was objectively taking us backwards. Less quickly than Adkins has managed, admittedly.

But league position isn't awarded on ppg. No matter what the language 5th is higher than 7th in any league table.

 

[Dec]

But league position isn't awarded on ppg. No matter what the language 5th is higher than 7th in any league table.

Not when you consider where he started from in the 1st season. The 2nd season was a big step back in comparison to how we did in his 1st season.

The 1st season, under Clough, we were going at a rate that if it continued in the 2nd season, we would have been well in with a chance of automatic promotion. As it turned out, we were far away from the top 2 all season long. Not good enough for the amount of players brought in and money spent.

But regardless of it not being good enough, I'm pretty sure they were willing to give him another season (as were many fans) - hence allowing him to submit his retention list. It was a disagreement, I think Phipps said (whether you believe it is another matter), which meant that they ended up getting rid of him.

 

[Mendi]

It went all tits down when, the club failed in the play-offs. He then got his matching orders.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I do think it’s a little unfair to judge Adkins’ performance on how he manages the same group left behind by Clough though. The 2 have different management styles and Clough perhaps built a group who are responsive to the school headmaster style and not responsive to the positive trust based style of Adkins. For anyone who ever studied published motivation techniques, there are a number of recognised approaches. Herzberg developed the X and Y theory. The X theory (used by Clough) assumed that workers (players) dislike work and need to be motivated by fear or financial reward. The Y theory (used by Adkins) is based around a more parcipitative management style based on encouragement and making staff feel valued etc. I don’t think we’ll see Adkins be successful until he can put together a squad where the majority respond to his methods. That doesn’t make him a bad manager, but it does mean he is struggling with the twats that he’s inherited at the club.

Bumping this because of Adkins' comments in today's Star about standards on and off the pitch. He talks about the need for players who can take charge of themselves, eat right, rest properly etc and not need to have a coach stood over them at all times. This completely supports the point I was making above and reinforces my belief that with a chance to get the right sort of personalities in, Adkins can be successful. They won't all have great quality (such as Woolford and Hammond) but if we have the right characters earning the right for us to play, the ones who do have ability (Sharp, Brayford etc.) will see the benefits.

 

[TonyAgana]

Bumping this because of Adkins' comments in today's Star about standards on and off the pitch. He talks about the need for players who can take charge of themselves, eat right, rest properly etc and not need to have a coach stood over them at all times. This completely supports the point I was making above and reinforces my belief that with a chance to get the right sort of personalities in, Adkins can be successful. They won't all have great quality (such as Woolford and Hammond) but if we have the right characters earning the right for us to play, the ones who do have ability (Sharp, Brayford etc.) will see the benefits.

Interesting points. Assuming for a moment that Clough did indeed rule based on "X theory", I'd suggest that he didn't necessarily only buy players that he thought would respond well to that style. I'm thinking particularly of the likes of Stefan Scougall, Che Adams, John Brayford, Matt Done - all players that seem, from the outside at least, to simply love playing football and thrive on encouragement and trust.

The rot (the implied group of dissenters) may well have set in under Clough and he would have suffered the same shite performances as Adkins. I still think though that it's simply the Manager's job to manage people, so for Adkins to imply that plenty of the current crop aren't capable of taking charge of themselves, eating right, resting properly, etc. strikes me as a little desperate to pin the blame on the previous regime. It's funny how that doesn't happen if a manager hits the ground running.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Interesting points. Assuming for a moment that Clough did indeed rule based on "X theory", I'd suggest that he didn't necessarily only buy players that he thought would respond well to that style. I'm thinking particularly of the likes of Stefan Scougall, Che Adams, John Brayford, Matt Done - all players that seem, from the outside at least, to simply love playing football and thrive on encouragement and trust.

The rot (the implied group of dissenters) may well have set in under Clough and he would have suffered the same shite performances as Adkins. I still think though that it's simply the Manager's job to manage people, so for Adkins to imply that plenty of the current crop aren't capable of taking charge of themselves, eating right, resting properly, etc. strikes me as a little desperate to pin the blame on the previous regime. It's funny how that doesn't happen if a manager hits the ground running.

He doesn't say they don't though. He says they should. He's very protective of the players and tries to give them the platform to be able to perform but says they must also do their bit. Couple that with the type of praise he's always throwing at Dean Hammond and the constructive criticism of Che Adams and De Girolamo (learning to be professional footballers) then it seems it's something that is important to him.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Interesting points. Assuming for a moment that Clough did indeed rule based on "X theory", I'd suggest that he didn't necessarily only buy players that he thought would respond well to that style. I'm thinking particularly of the likes of Stefan Scougall, Che Adams, John Brayford, Matt Done - all players that seem, from the outside at least, to simply love playing football and thrive on encouragement and trust.
The rot (the implied group of dissenters) may well have set in under Clough and he would have suffered the same shite performances as Adkins. I still think though that it's simply the Manager's job to manage people, so for Adkins to imply that plenty of the current crop aren't capable of taking charge of themselves, eating right, resting properly, etc. strikes me as a little desperate to pin the blame on the previous regime. It's funny how that doesn't happen if a manager hits the ground running.

Adkins was criticising the general fitness and volume of injuries from the get go. He also made none too subtle hints about players playing through injuries under the last regime. Many of our players haven't done a full pre season and it really shows imo.

 

[SwissBlade]

Bumping this because of Adkins' comments in today's Star about standards on and off the pitch. He talks about the need for players who can take charge of themselves, eat right, rest properly etc and not need to have a coach stood over them at all times. This completely supports the point I was making above and reinforces my belief that with a chance to get the right sort of personalities in, Adkins can be successful. They won't all have great quality (such as Woolford and Hammond) but if we have the right characters earning the right for us to play, the ones who do have ability (Sharp, Brayford etc.) will see the benefits.

It didn't help that Adkins gave everyone left a clean slate. Not entirely Adkins fault as he was put into that position by the Board, but i do feel that he came in on a wave of positivity and its been to his own detriment. Upon relieving Clough of his duties, the club should've taken that chance to move a few players on. But perhaps they can now confidently say that some of those players have not stepped up. Perhaps a certain youngster that we gave a new contract to straight after Clough left.

Reading Adkins comments, he says everything and nothing, its certainly not a new approach, you can go back to people like Bassett and Warnock, as well as Wilson and Clough, even Julian Winter said the same to me.

However, I think what we have seen under Adkins is that too many players have been allowed the opportunity to less professional, less fit and less willing to do the graft. Its taken a lot of changes in the side to even see a spark of life. Players like Reed, Basham, Long and Kieran Wallace being just a few who've seemed to be on top of all aspects of their professionalism.

Interestingly, reading in another Adkins interview from the Star, he mentions positivity, a need to get away from quitters and the negativity. It was good to see on Saturday, that the side seemed more together. #bettertogether

 

[Bartleby]

I still think though that it's simply the Manager's job to manage people, so for Adkins to imply that plenty of the current crop aren't capable of taking charge of themselves, eating right, resting properly, etc. strikes me as a little desperate to pin the blame on the previous regime. It's funny how that doesn't happen if a manager hits the ground running.

Warnock suffered the same sort of thing when he started out in management in the lower leagues. Ex pros who had played at a much higher level than Warnock had so they showed him no respect, just wanting to see their time out without putting much effort in. No way to hit the ground running on that he had to wait until he could move them all out, and that's what he did.

 

[TonyAgana]

He doesn't say they don't though. He says they should. He's very protective of the players and tries to give them the platform to be able to perform but says they must also do their bit. Couple that with the type of praise he's always throwing at Dean Hammond and the constructive criticism of Che Adams and De Girolamo (learning to be professional footballers) then it seems it's something that is important to him.

Fair point. I do notice though that no player who Clough "froze out" has particularly thrived under Adkins. In terms of under-performers, I'd suggest that Hammond is Clough's Coutts (persistently played despite not at all deserving a place based on form, seeming to try and justify the signing), Collins continues to have his position questioned by the fans (and his ability wasn't the main reason he was bombed out by Clough), McEverley has been both woeful and wonderful under both managers, McNulty is still 4th/5th choice, Che is still used sparingly (although more involved under Adkins than last season under Clough, I certainly think Clough would've played him at least as much as Adkins this season).

Adkins was criticising the general fitness and volume of injuries from the get go. He also made none too subtle hints about players playing through injuries under the last regime. Many of our players haven't done a full pre season and it really shows imo.

That's certainly something that is not Adkins "fault" per se, but also difficult to level too much criticism at Clough, considering the desperation that set in in the second half of last season especially with the prolonged involvement in cup competitions. Also, Adkins is just as guilty playing Billy through injury.

 

[TonyAgana]

Warnock suffered the same sort of thing when he started out in management in the lower leagues. Ex pros who had played at a much higher level than Warnock had so they showed him no respect, just wanting to see their time out without putting much effort in. No way to hit the ground running on that he had to wait until he could move them all out, and that's what he did.

Are you saying the players respected Clough more than Adkins because of their achievements as players themselves? Quite possibly, yes. I'd hope that respect would be given to a man with Premier League management experience, though.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Fair point. I do notice though that no player who Clough "froze out" has particularly thrived under Adkins. In terms of under-performers, I'd suggest that Hammond is Clough's Coutts (persistently played despite not at all deserving a place based on form, seeming to try and justify the signing), Collins continues to have his position questioned by the fans (and his ability wasn't the main reason he was bombed out by Clough), McEverley has been both woeful and wonderful under both managers, McNulty is still 4th/5th choice, Che is still used sparingly (although more involved under Adkins than last season under Clough, I certainly think Clough would've played him at least as much as Adkins this season).

That's certainly something that is not Adkins "fault" per se, but also difficult to level too much criticism at Clough, considering the desperation that set in in the second half of last season especially with the prolonged involvement in cup competitions. Also, Adkins is just as guilty playing Billy through injury.

I'd say K. Wallace showed some improvement as has Coutts. With Adams, his recent performances are getting better after a difficult patch with disciplinary issues and the loss of his father. Hopefully, if Adkins gets in more Hammond type personalities (though not Hammond type footballers hopefully) we will see their behaviours rub off on young players like Reed, Adams, DCL etc. and improve their chances of making it.

 

[TonyAgana]

I'd say K. Wallace showed some improvement as has Coutts. With Adams, his recent performances are getting better after a difficult patch with disciplinary issues and the loss of his father. Hopefully, if Adkins gets in more Hammond type personalities (though not Hammond type footballers hopefully) we will see their behaviours rub off on young players like Reed, Adams, DCL etc. and improve their chances of making it.

Good point with Wallace although he isn't being used anymore. As for Coutts, I've said before Adkins seems to be reaping the rewards of Clough's (at the time infuriating) persistence in getting him match-fit. And I'm sure Adams would've been used just as much this season by Clough, had he remained in charge. I'm also not convinced Reed, Adams and DCL particularly need that type of support, and not at the expense of such high wages that we'd have to pay the over-30s. Reed and DCL seem very level-headed young men already and Adams appeared well-protected by Clough. I'm not disagreeing with you on that one, I'm just not convinced.

 

[Esablade]

I'd say K. Wallace showed some improvement as has Coutts. With Adams, his recent performances are getting better after a difficult patch with disciplinary issues and the loss of his father. Hopefully, if Adkins gets in more Hammond type personalities (though not Hammond type footballers hopefully) we will see their behaviours rub off on young players like Reed, Adams, DCL etc. and improve their chances of making it.

They all certainly look a bit fitter and tougher than under Clough...the dead can walk (Coutts) the half dead can move a bit more ( McEverley/Collins) and the living are almost at running speed!

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Good point with Wallace although he isn't being used anymore. As for Coutts, I've said before Adkins seems to be reaping the rewards of Clough's (at the time infuriating) persistence in getting him match-fit. And I'm sure Adams would've been used just as much this season by Clough, had he remained in charge. I'm also not convinced Reed, Adams and DCL particularly need that type of support, and not at the expense of such high wages that we'd have to pay the over-30s. Reed and DCL seem very level-headed young men already and Adams appeared well-protected by Clough. I'm not disagreeing with you on that one, I'm just not convinced.

But would Adams have survived his earlier indiscretions if Clough were still here?

It's all speculation I guess but I'm keen to see how Adkins does with his own men

 

[TonyAgana]

But would Adams have survived his earlier indiscretions if Clough were still here?

Well, quite! He at least allowed Fabien Brandy one indiscretion I'd also question whether Clough would've supported Baxter in his first hearing, especially given the emotional aspect of potentially costing Clough a promotion in his first full season. Whether what has transpired since says more about Clough than Adkins, I don't know!

It's all speculation I guess but I'm keen to see how Adkins does with his own men

Indeed. That's all that we can look to, I suppose! It just concerns me that his signings have turned out in reality to be so poor (in his defence, on paper they looked ok) and he hasn't so far done anything particularly radical.

 

[SwissBlade]

They all certainly look a bit fitter and tougher than under Clough...the dead can walk (Coutts) the half dead can move a bit more ( McEverley/Collins) and the living are almost at running speed!

I think it depends on where players are when we bring them in, Coutts, Wallace, Wallace and Done were all in need of a good fitness regime when they came in, no denying that. However, given that most of the players (yes the so called fat baxter as well) played around 60 games last season and the season before, compared to a lot less this year, i think a few like Hammond, JCR, Coutts, Sammon are all pretty fragile and would struggle to be fit for 90 mins!

Adkins was criticising the general fitness and volume of injuries from the get go. He also made none too subtle hints about players playing through injuries under the last regime. Many of our players haven't done a full pre season and it really shows imo.

I don't think he's particularly had a big impact on fitness, so perhaps a preseason will be the key.

 

[Esablade]

I think it depends on where players are when we bring them in, Coutts, Wallace, Wallace and Done were all in need of a good fitness regime when they came in, no denying that. However, given that most of the players (yes the so called fat baxter as well) played around 60 games last season and the season before, compared to a lot less this year, i think a few like Hammond, JCR, Coutts, Sammon are all pretty fragile and would struggle to be fit for 90 mins!



I don't think he's particularly had a big impact on fitness, so perhaps a preseason will be the key.

For around 55 of those 60 games the pace was walking/backwards mind...

P.S- the five other games were great!

 

[Lane Ender]

For around 55 of those 60 games the pace was walking/backwards mind...

P.S- the five other games were great!

Yes take out the cup games and it was one big yawn at the Lane
I only went to three away last season Notts, Bristol and Barnsley played well in all three.
Why Clough didnt employ those tactics every game mystified me,home and away.