Clough out? A good article on the issue

[Davie Blade]

He moved from Burton to Derby when they were in first place and 13 points clear and promoted to the 4th division in all but name.

If you want to use stats selectively, and say this counts for nothing, fair enough

Talking of using selective stats selectively

A more realistic interpretation is :-

All the chasing pack had between 4 and 1 games in hand.
http://www.burtonalbion-mad.co.uk/snapshot_tables/2008_2009/1/jan/burton_albion/index.shtml
2nd place Histon were also flying. They had 3 games in hand on Burton, and had lost the same number of games, so potentially the gap was only 4pts ahead.
Clough had left McFarland a very small squad of players, upon which injuries took their toll in the final run in.

Plenty of clubs have blown better positions than that, so hardly ''promotion in all but name.''

 

[Going up]

Talking of using selective stats selectively

A more realistic interpretation is :-

All the chasing pack had between 4 and 1 games in hand.
http://www.burtonalbion-mad.co.uk/snapshot_tables/2008_2009/1/jan/burton_albion/index.shtml
2nd place Histon were also flying. They had 3 games in hand on Burton, and had lost the same number of games, so potentially the gap was only 4pts ahead.
Clough had left McFarland a very small squad of players, upon which injuries took their toll in the final run in.

Plenty of clubs have blown better positions than that, so hardly ''promotion in all but name.''

I think you will find every manager would prefer points on the board to games in hand.

 

[Bladesway]

The Board have the dilemma.

Now that they have doubts about Clough they might think we are better investing the next lump of money in another manager if they can find one in whom they can have more confidence. However by doing that they would incur massive settlement costs of the various contracts of the manager and all his staff, maybe even including the MD. They would have a mini army of ex-Derby players who would presumably be disaffected, including the Clough talisman Brayford, for whom we would never recover the money we shelled out.

For those reasons it is not even a remote possibility now and not even in November. Perhaps they are the wrong reasons but that's how it is when a Board places so much faith in one man and builds everything round him. Let's hope it all works out in the end. The Board have invested substantially to create stability through Clough and his dynasty.

My own worries are not whether Clough can get us promoted, rather the two or three years he would spend in the Championship before everybody realised his limitations. I picture us in 2018 with a disillusioned owner who has invested multi-millions with all to show a rag bag squad playing haphazard and boring football and a hostile crowd. All the weaknesses we've seen in League 1 would be magnified at the higher level.

Good post well put although I disagree with your last statement. We appear to be better suited against better teams.

 

[Bladesway]

I think being 26 points off the top side tells the story of the season, also we may end up 21 points behind automatic I fail to see where the improvement will come from. I also can not believe we may only improve on last season by 3 points.

Didn't we think the same under Warnock in 04/05?

 

[Woodwardfan]

Good post well put although I disagree with your last statement. We appear to be better suited against better teams.

There is a case to say 4-5-1 is more appropriate against teams as good as or better than yourself, it's all about plugging the gaps and counter attacking with speed and in numbers. In League 1 we have not been able to move forward quickly or defend well against teams from much lower standards as the gap is massive and I don't see how we would do any better in the Championship.

In the Cup I think the opposition probably underestimated us to a degree and had other priorities apart from Southampton who got the shock of their lives, but we did play way above ourselves that night.

I don't think we have enough good players to move the ball quickly, most of them don't move well to receive the ball either. I think our defence is appalling , our keeper is less than adequate and we are far too light and small. Other than that what can I say, I hope I'm wrong but I don't think we'll go up yet anyway.

 

[AlBlade]

One of the best bits of advice I was given when I became a company director 10 years ago was, "give people all the tools they need to do the job and take away the excuses"; that way, you give everyone a chance to do well and if someone doesn't perform it's down to them.

I think this season has been the first in many years where the Board have genuinely given the manager everything he needs to succeed, and he has no excuses if he doesn't perform. The Board have given the manager their support, both verbally and financially. The Board have not interfered with player selection, or put the manager under pressure to sell players. The only blemish on the Board's record was the way they handled the whole Ched debacle, but I don't think that impacted the team much (we weren't great before the Ched fiasco, we weren't great during it, and we weren't great after it!)

Unlike some previous posters, I don't think NC has any mitigating factors for this season's performance. The squad are his players; he has been given money for transfers and wages; injuries have been down to NC buying injury prone players or having to play injured players because we don't have options (e.g. Flynn); he had a full pre-season; the tactics are his (despite his protestations that the players ignore his pleas for attacking football every time they go on the pitch!); if he missed out on targets it is because they were not realistic or they didn't want to play for him; etc. etc.

So in summary, from my perspective, this season, for the first in many seasons, the Board have given the manager all the tools to do the job and taken away the excuses. So if we don't get promoted, sorry Nigel, there's the door. If we get promoted, he keeps his job, and we see how we get on next season.

 

[Benny and the Blades]

Am I wrong in thinking Nigels contract is up at the end of next season anyway, or that if he was replaced tomorrow that no matter who they were able to choose as the new manager or how much money he was allowed to spend there would still be no guarantee of success next season ?...

 

[bartman]

The Board have the dilemma.

Now that they have doubts about Clough they might think we are better investing the next lump of money in another manager if they can find one in whom they can have more confidence. However by doing that they would incur massive settlement costs of the various contracts of the manager and all his staff, maybe even including the MD. They would have a mini army of ex-Derby players who would presumably be disaffected, including the Clough talisman Brayford, for whom we would never recover the money we shelled out.

For those reasons it is not even a remote possibility now and not even in November. Perhaps they are the wrong reasons but that's how it is when a Board places so much faith in one man and builds everything round him. Let's hope it all works out in the end. The Board have invested substantially to create stability through Clough and his dynasty.

My own worries are not whether Clough can get us promoted, rather the two or three years he would spend in the Championship before everybody realised his limitations. I picture us in 2018 with a disillusioned owner who has invested multi-millions with all to show a rag bag squad playing haphazard and boring football and a hostile crowd. All the weaknesses we've seen in League 1 would be magnified at the higher level.

I'm not sure the board have doubts. I think they will be disappointed that the autos haven't been achieved but for once they don't appear to be trigger happy. I suspect if we start next season poorly (if we don't go up) a change will be made quickly. However two good centre half's a dominant midfielder and a good target man and I think we will be ok.

A poster in this thread mentioned some of the kids aren't happy. I'm not too concerned with that as I think we can all agree if a kid is good enough ( in Clough's) opinion) he will get a chance
For some reason I fancy us in he play offs this time (must be the Jaipur i am supping at the mo) but the problem is then is that the Board must invest a few million do we can survive at the next level

 

[bartman]

One of the best bits of advice I was given when I became a company director 10 years ago was, "give people all the tools they need to do the job and take away the excuses"; that way, you give everyone a chance to do well and if someone doesn't perform it's down to them.

I think this season has been the first in many years where the Board have genuinely given the manager everything he needs to succeed, and he has no excuses if he doesn't perform. The Board have given the manager their support, both verbally and financially. The Board have not interfered with player selection, or put the manager under pressure to sell players. The only blemish on the Board's record was the way they handled the whole Ched debacle, but I don't think that impacted the team much (we weren't great before the Ched fiasco, we weren't great during it, and we weren't great after it!)

Unlike some previous posters, I don't think NC has any mitigating factors for this season's performance. The squad are his players; he has been given money for transfers and wages; injuries have been down to NC buying injury prone players or having to play injured players because we don't have options (e.g. Flynn); he had a full pre-season; the tactics are his (despite his protestations that the players ignore his pleas for attacking football every time they go on the pitch!); if he missed out on targets it is because they were not realistic or they didn't want to play for him; etc. etc.

So in summary, from my perspective, this season, for the first in many seasons, the Board have given the manager all the tools to do the job and taken away the excuses. So if we don't get promoted, sorry Nigel, there's the door. If we get promoted, he keeps his job, and we see how we get on next season.

Should we sack him if we don't go up? The danger then is that we start all over again.it could work but we could get worse like under Weir.

Give him the first 15 games of the season
If we are behind the pace at that stage the Board will get rid anyway

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

This season hasn't been great, but there are mitigating circumstances that aren't down to Clough - missing out on targets, certain players under-performing, the Ched fiasco. But, as Biggs stated, it's an improvement on last season and a big improvement on when NC first took over.
Like what, Clough was given full control and an adequate budget to work with why is it not down to Clough if we miss targets ? certain players under performing well Clough has close to 40 players to pick from so I think we can put that one down to him. Ah then we have Ched anyone think this would have been such a huge distraction if we had brought in a decent striker over the summer, again down to Clough that we didn't.

There have been plenty of games this season where we were unlucky not to take three points. If three or four of our losses or draws had been turned into wins we'd have been challenging for an auto place.
I fail to see where turning 3-4 draws or losses would have made up the current 19 pts difference to 2nd placed Preston, the simple fact is we are way off the pace.

If we don't go up this season, top two must be the only target next season. I'd keep Clough but review the situation at Christmas. If we are more than six points adrift of second place by the end of the year it may be time to make a change. I do believe that we'll be firmly in the top two by then.
So you and others would give him until next Xmas regardless ? So if we are still in League one next season but not up in the top two you would replace Clough at Xmas and bring in a new man with no time to prepare and get players that are needed in the JTW or in other words throw yet another season down the pan.

Same even if we go up. I can see us struggling in the Championship with this squad, and we'll need at least 4-5 decent new signings over the summer. If we're in the relegation zone at Christmas, or close to it, we'd need to review the situation.

I think that figure must be closer to 10 and I have no confidence in Cloughs transfer dealings after seeing this seasons recuitment of crocks, journeymen and bang average dross.

Saying that, Clough has never suffered a relegation in his managerial career - or even as a player as far as I know
Saying that Clough has never enjoyed a league promotion, actually this will be his highest finish in any league season even if it is in a piss poor league one where a record low of 69pts gets you a play off slot.

If we go up or even stay down , i have a feeling , there will be a total rebuild of the playing staff , dealing with the many shortfalls of this season . Having a big squad as not really worked , with slot in players and smooth transition not working , which has been evident in performance of the players , both collectively and individually . The players brought in when not playing with a settled side , look as confused as us fans , and sometimes look completely lost , with there actual roles and responsibilities.

A big clear out , moving players on , buying new players , with major surgery ( only 5 players are good enough ) , will cost us money.

Clough has made some fundamental errors and miscalculations this season , but we are still in the play offs . The real downer for us and him , is that if he had got 50% of his right ( some mentioned in your post ) , i have no doubt , we would not be messing around with play offs , but achieved automatic promotion.

Clough was brought in to ultimately save us from relegation , which he did. However , that does not let him off the hook for this season , and will have to answer to the board , and our own reactions . He has no room for failure , although he will not be sacked .

UTB

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Should we sack him if we don't go up? The danger then is that we start all over again.it could work but we could get worse like under Weir.

Give him the first 15 games of the season
If we are behind the pace at that stage the Board will get rid anyway

Agree , but the problem will be , is that he will have spent money in the summer on new players , squad building , and if we are struggling after 15 games , is it money wasted , due to under achieving , under performances yet again. The board are really in a no win , no win situation , if we fail to get promotion.

The only way is to give him a full season , next season , if in league 1 , then he has been given a more than fair chance at the whip.

I know it doesn't help us fans.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

If we go up or even stay down , i have a feeling , there will be a total rebuild of the playing staff , dealing with the many shortfalls of this season . Having a big squad as not really worked , with slot in players and smooth transition not working , which has been evident in performance of the players , both collectively and individually . The players brought in when not playing with a settled side , look as confused as us fans , and sometimes look completely lost , with there actual roles and responsibilities.

A big clear out , moving players on , buying new players , with major surgery ( only 5 players are good enough ) , will cost us money.

Clough has made some fundamental errors and miscalculations this season , but we are still in the play offs . The real downer for us and him , is that if he had got 50% of his right ( some mentioned in your post ) , i have no doubt , we would not be messing around with play offs , but achieved automatic promotion.

Clough was brought in to ultimately save us from relegation , which he did. However , that does not let him off the hook for this season , and will have to answer to the board , and our own reactions . He has no room for failure , although he will not be sacked .

UTB

Good post fella, with one exception. Clough was not really brought in to avoid relegation. Anything better than Weir, Robson or a Chimpanzee would have managed that.

The remit would definitely have been promotion this season.

UTB

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

I'm not sure the board have doubts. I think they will be disappointed that the autos haven't been achieved but for once they don't appear to be trigger happy. I suspect if we start next season poorly (if we don't go up) a change will be made quickly. However two good centre half's a dominant midfielder and a good target man and I think we will be ok.

A poster in this thread mentioned some of the kids aren't happy. I'm not too concerned with that as I think we can all agree if a kid is good enough ( in Clough's) opinion) he will get a chance
For some reason I fancy us in he play offs this time (must be the Jaipur i am supping at the mo) but the problem is then is that the Board must invest a few million do we can survive at the next level

That bit about the kids not being happy didn't appear to have any basis in fact. Can we stop it spreading any further?

 

[alcoblade]

That bit about the kids not being happy didn't appear to have any basis in fact. Can we stop it spreading any further?

No doubt those who aren't playing aren't, but that's the same the world over.

UTB

 

[davidpinder]

Murphy signed a contract in January or February didn't he?

Since when did a contract make a difference ?

 

[davidpinder]

That bit about the kids not being happy didn't appear to have any basis in fact. Can we stop it spreading any further?

I am not prepared to say who said what when, but when a player comes on and scores 2 goals against a top 6 prem club then hardly plays after, I doubt anyone would be happy. Plus another player has said he's not with the "in crowd" so he doesn't even get passed to in training.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Since when did a contract make a difference ?

If you interpret Murphy's body language as meaning he is unhappy then that's up to you. The fact is he signed a contract.

Similarly with the stuff about Adams and unsubstantiated rumours about players not being passed to.

This strikes me as imaginary and divisive.

Without evidence I don't think any of this has any credibility whatsoever.

We disagree.

 

[davidpinder]

If you interpret Murphy's body language as meaning he is unhappy then that's up to you. The fact is he signed a contract.

Similarly with the stuff about Adams and unsubstantiated rumours about players not being passed to.

This strikes me as imaginary and divisive.

Without evidence I don't think any of this has any credibility whatsoever.

We disagree.

I am not prepared to get anyone in trouble before a playoff campaign, but if it turns into an unsuccessful one then words will be said within that club trust me. Do you not find it odd that hardly any of them play anymore when they did so well.?

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

I am not prepared to get anyone in trouble before a playoff campaign, but if it turns into an unsuccessful one then words will be said within that club trust me. Do you not find it odd that hardly any of them play anymore when they did so well.?

Like you said now isn't really the time to go into this but fwiw I don't see anything out of the ordinary at all.

 

[Kev Gee]

With our budget we should have gone up auto.

If we dont get promotion then NC is on very thin ice. Ive skirted between sacking him if we dot go up this year to giving him till Xmas.

However if we dont then I dont see much point in giving him till Xmas and spending all our summer money.

Play offs or bust for me.

 

[JasonEllis]

With our budget we should have gone up auto.

If we dont get promotion then NC is on very thin ice. Ive skirted between sacking him if we dot go up this year to giving him till Xmas.

However if we dont then I dont see much point in giving him till Xmas and spending all our summer money.

Play offs or bust for me.

I agree.

At this level, I personally cannot see Clough spending the transfer budget effectively in the summer at this level. I hope I am wrong however, as ultimately the club's success is what we all crave as fans.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I am not prepared to say who said what when, but when a player comes on and scores 2 goals against a top 6 prem club then hardly plays after, I doubt anyone would be happy. Plus another player has said he's not with the "in crowd" so he doesn't even get passed to in training.

Let's apply some logic and intuition.

If I'm a young hopeful at the club I want to see supportive and encouraging management, calm role models who talk through my mistakes after games and simply never bollock me publicly during a game. I'd prefer my management team not to curse and swear at my fellow players every hand and turn in rants and tantrums from the touchline and never turn to me and my mates on the bench letting off steam.

I'd want to play in a team which plays to a recognised style and system and has a settled feel to it.

I want to be part of a good sized squad where opportunities will arise for me to play and not an endless glut of more senior players blocking my way. If they are more senior and given more playing time I'd prefer to understand why on earth they are picked before me, in other words see their worth on the field and so I can watch and learn.

As a young lad I'd hate to detect their is a bias towards a little group of players who have served the manager at a previous club and who have their own little clique.

As a young player the last thing I would ever want is my manager naming and shaming me in a post game interview for having a bad performance.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

I am not prepared to say who said what when, but when a player comes on and scores 2 goals against a top 6 prem club then hardly plays after, I doubt anyone would be happy. Plus another player has said he's not with the "in crowd" so he doesn't even get passed to in training.

Dave P .How some players have found it diificult to get motivated , find space and want the ball , i dont think i would pass the ball to them in training , as it would make me look bad . Footballers are always unhappy if they are not playing . I would say certain members are perplexed as we are with team selections , but i would take what you have heard with a pinch of salt .

Every walk of life , with work or social , has clicks , in crowds . so tough shit , players get paid for playing .

Half of the squad , if not at the lane , would be at a another league 1 or 2 club anyway.

You have started me humming In Crowd , Dobie Gray , good old Northern Soul - Thats the only positive from the post.

UTB

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Let's apply some logic and intuition.

If I'm a young hopeful at the club I want to see supportive and encouraging management, calm role models who talk through my mistakes after games and simply never bollock me publicly during a game. I'd prefer my management team not to curse and swear at my fellow players every hand and turn in rants and tantrums from the touchline and never turn to me and my mates on the bench letting off steam.

I'd want to play in a team which plays to a recognised style and system and has a settled feel to it.

I want to be part of a good sized squad where opportunities will arise for me to play and not an endless glut of more senior players blocking my way. If they are more senior and given more playing time I'd prefer to understand why on earth they are picked before me, in other words see their worth on the field and so I can watch and learn.

As a young lad I'd hate to detect their is a bias towards a little group of players who have served the manager at a previous club and who have their own little clique.

As a young player the last thing I would ever want is my manager naming and shaming me in a post game interview for having a bad performance.

Woody , its pressure.

If i was the manager , i would give them all a round of fuckings , and put some on the naughty step as we do little Bobby .

How some are playing , they will cost us promotions , as they have cost us points .

There are Cloughs players , so he may be passing the shit down the line , which may have already started falling on him , thrown by McCabe and Prince.

Simon McCabe is close to a number of ex pros , so he will know the ins and outs of any news , good or bad.

Lets get on with whats important - winning football matches.

UTB

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I am not prepared to get anyone in trouble before a playoff campaign, but if it turns into an unsuccessful one then words will be said within that club trust me. Do you not find it odd that hardly any of them play anymore when they did so well.?

It sounds like you're talking about Dimaio to me. Didn't he turn up overweight and unfit for pre-season training?

Of the others, Reed has played regularly until his form dropped off recently.

Long, McGahey and K.Wallace have all been given a chance but weren't ready. They've all been loaned out to further their football education.

Khan has been playing for a club in the sixth tier. It doesn't sound like he's quite ready for a third tier promotion dogfight.

The only one who can consider himself a bit underused in my opinion is Adams. He's getting games now the pressure has eased a little.

Clough said he was going to favour experience over youth for the run-in and he has. Most managers would.

 

[him behind you]

It sounds like you're talking about Dimaio to me. Didn't he turn up overweight and unfit for pre-season training?

Of the others, Reed has played regularly until his form dropped off recently.

Long, McGahey and K.Wallace have all been given a chance but weren't ready. They've all been loaned out to further their football education.

Khan has been playing for a club in the sixth tier. It doesn't sound like he's quite ready for a third tier promotion dogfight.

The only one who can consider himself a bit underused in my opinion is Adams. He's getting games now the pressure has eased a little.

Clough said he was going to favour experience over youth for the run-in and he has. Most managers would.

Steady on Sothal. This is close to the application of logic. Have a like.

 

[raul]

Let's apply some logic and intuition.

If I'm a young hopeful at the club I want to see supportive and encouraging management, calm role models who talk through my mistakes after games and simply never bollock me publicly during a game. I'd prefer my management team not to curse and swear at my fellow players every hand and turn in rants and tantrums from the touchline and never turn to me and my mates on the bench letting off steam.

I'd want to play in a team which plays to a recognised style and system and has a settled feel to it.

I want to be part of a good sized squad where opportunities will arise for me to play and not an endless glut of more senior players blocking my way. If they are more senior and given more playing time I'd prefer to understand why on earth they are picked before me, in other words see their worth on the field and so I can watch and learn.

As a young lad I'd hate to detect their is a bias towards a little group of players who have served the manager at a previous club and who have their own little clique.

As a young player the last thing I would ever want is my manager naming and shaming me in a post game interview for having a bad performance.

Which out of work Manager is it that you represent WWF??

 

[Woodwardfan]

Just been thinking about the youngsters and what I wrote above. That's what I see with my own eyes week in week out and hear in post game interviews now and again.

I never attend Shirecliffe. Would somebody who goes there regularly please tell us all whether Clough and Garner are encouragers during midweek sessions. Have they an easy rapport with the young players, all players in fact. Are the players at ease with them and able to interact comfortably. Do the top two spend a lot of time on young player development?

I'd love somebody to say yes to those points.

 

[sitwell]

I am not prepared to say who said what when, but when a player comes on and scores 2 goals against a top 6 prem club then hardly plays after, I doubt anyone would be happy. Plus another player has said he's not with the "in crowd" so he doesn't even get passed to in training.

Is this Sheffield United ,or Abbey Lane under 8s your talking about ? Get a grip.

 

[robbiez666]

For whatever reason, there's something wrong at the club this season. Players have mainly been nowhere near last season's standards in the league.

The only mitigating factor is Chedgate.

The fact Clough couldn't get his primary targets in pre-season is something every manager has to deal with. The pre-season was a complete mess.

I said at the start of the season I wanted to see progression. I've seen very little, if any, this season in terms of the football played.