Outgoing? Che Adams

[Bartleby]

Yes, just like the Kyle Walker deal. That went well.

ironic - the shit stirring pig that called P or G and caused this whole thread said his name was Kyle.

 

[Revolution]

You don't think that deal represented value for money at the time? Regardless of how it was reinvested? You could always use Slew and Mellis as other examples of it working in our favour. Its a risk you take.

I see what you mean, but in saying it's value for money you're not the first poster to separate the sale from its consequences.

The sale cannot be considered in isolation. This is the real world. If you are going to sell a good player, who are you going to replace him with?

Plus - are you selling the right player? Kilgallon had a shorter contract and wanted to go. He's the one you sell first. We ended up selling him anyway later, weakening ourselves further.

My no 1 criticism of our transfer policy is that everything seems to be considered in isolation, without regard for other factors like who else is in the squad, who needs replacing, what our weaknesses are, etc. If anyone doubts that we have worked like this, ask yourself why we have loads of midfielders who are small, don't score, and are not fast.

For too long now, nobody is building a team...

 

[Revolution]

Out of interest, can anyone point to an example where a Premier League club has bid £2m plus for a League 1 player, it's been rejected, and the player has ended up staying put? I know we have examples of clubs standing their ground on players (eg Stones & Chelsea) but I'm specifically interested in a L1/PL example. In fact, ignore the fee – any bids acceptable. Genuinely interested to know if there are any.

Jordan Rhodes and Jermaine Beckford are both recent examples.

 

[S5Blade]

I see what you mean, but in saying it's value for money you're not the first poster to separate the sale from its consequences.

The sale cannot be considered in isolation. This is the real world. If you are going to sell a good player, who are you going to replace him with?

Plus - are you selling the right player? Kilgallon had a shorter contract and wanted to go. He's the one you sell first. We ended up selling him anyway later, weakening ourselves further.

My no 1 criticism of our transfer policy is that everything seems to be considered in isolation, without regard for other factors like who else is in the squad, who needs replacing, what our weaknesses are, etc. If anyone doubts that we have worked like this, ask yourself why we have loads of midfielders who are small, don't score, and are not fast.

For too long now, nobody is building a team...

I don't think it is, it makes zero sense from anyone's perspective. Why would we sell anyone if the manager at the time hasn't said "yes, get rid but I need x amount of funds to replace Y with Z that will improve our chances long term" - Given the loss we are running at, it would make no sense at any level to sell anyone without a plan to replace with better and reinvest the funds to improve the chances of reaching our goal.

Selling a player for 5m and buying 2m worth of players is hardly going to line the owners pockets is it so whats the logic? The owners want the club to be successful and get promoted, it's the only way they would ever make any money out of us (which is ultimately what they want to do) so I dont believe we would ever sell without a plan / assurances from the staff that they can replace and/or still achieve its goals.

We can all rumour **** and say that the owners are pocketing money from player sales, don't want us to go up cos really we are making a shed load of profit in this division but honestly, who believes that tosh? We need to get to the premier league and any actions taken by the board and management team will be to support that goal (in their belief, at that time) - It's not worked out in the past granted but thats not to mean that it won't this time. Personally I believe we have the best manager to get us out of this shit and believe he knows what he's doing.

 

[Revolution]

I don't think it is, it makes zero sense from anyone's perspective. Why would we sell anyone if the manager at the time hasn't said "yes, get rid but I need x amount of funds to replace Y with Z that will improve our chances long term" - Given the loss we are running at, it would make no sense at any level to sell anyone without a plan to replace with better and reinvest the funds to improve the chances of reaching our goal.

Selling a player for 5m and buying 2m worth of players is hardly going to line the owners pockets is it so whats the logic? The owners want the club to be successful and get promoted, it's the only way they would ever make any money out of us (which is ultimately what they want to do) so I dont believe we would ever sell without a plan / assurances from the staff that they can replace and/or still achieve its goals.

I am also glad we have Adkins, but if you think players are never sold except as you state above I've got a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in buying.

I know it makes no sense to do it without having a plan. Precisely my point. We often don't have one.

this is naive in the extreme.

I have an example for you. Explain to me how the sale of Nick Blackman fits in with how you think it works.

 

[super_pig]

stop looking for logic and a plan. there isn't one.. first offer of a chip butty and a can of coke for Adams and Kevin will sell him

 

[S5Blade]

I am also glad we have Adkins, but if you think players are never sold except as you state above I've got a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in buying.

I know it makes no sense to do it without having a plan. Precisely my point. We often don't have one.

this is naive in the extreme.

I have an example for you. Explain to me how the sale of Nick Blackman fits in with how you think it works.

I am not privy to the goings on behind closed doors at SUFC so I have no idea what the situation was with Blackman. I am pretty sure however that a consultation would have gone on between all relevant stakeholders and a decision made. If players are sold without a managers say so, then I don't think that manager would be around for very long but even so, selling without a plan / assurances that we can cope without that player for the management team then is detrimental to the goal of SUFC as a business. I dont believe that Kev McCabe got to where he is today by selling assets for cheap to show a 1m profit that would ultimately harm his profits but a mega fuckton more 6 months down the line.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Jordan Rhodes and Jermaine Beckford are both recent examples.

I'll be honest, I thought they were both bids from Championship clubs. Can you remember the Premier League teams that bid for them?

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Jordan Rhodes and Jermaine Beckford are both recent examples.

Just checked: it was promotion-chasing Championship West Ham that Huddersfield turned down a bid from for Rhodes in the Jan 2012 transfer window when he was banging them in.

 

[Revolution]

I dont believe that Kev McCabe got to where he is today by selling assets for cheap to show a 1m profit that would ultimately harm his profits but a mega fuckton more 6 months down the line.

Kevin McCabe is in league one. One of the reasons for this is because he did exactly as you describe.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

And the bid Leeds rejected for Beckford (a fairly cheeky £1.8m) was from Newcastle, who at the time led the Championship.

Any other suggestions?

 

[Revolution]

Just checked: it was promotion-chasing Championship West Ham that Huddersfield turned down a bid from for Rhodes in the Jan 2012 transfer window when he was banging them in.

Maybe there were others. I don't know.

That's semantics anyway. We sell to Championship clubs too.

What's your point anyway? It's impossible to prevent a sale to a PL club?

It isn't. You say - "he's not for sale". It's that easy.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Maybe there were others. I don't know.

That's semantics anyway. We sell to Championship clubs too.

What's your point anyway?

My point is that if a Premier League club came in with a big bid for a League 1 player it would be extremely difficult to turn down. This is played out by the lack of examples of anyone acting differently in the same situation. You've perhaps highlighted that the perception might be one thing, but the reality another.

And you're right, the Murphy deal highlighted that we sell to the Championship – we should be stronger on that, and I'm not arguing that it's acceptable for a promotion-hunting team to sell to a league that we could be in the following year (which is why I criticised that at the time). But that is totally different to a bid from two divisions higher.

If Spurs bid £3m in January for Adams I expect he'll be off and while disappointed I wouldn't be angry. It would be a very gutsy move to reject that from the board, and seemingly unique for a League 1 side to do. That's my point.

 

[S5Blade]

Kevin McCabe is in league one. One of the reasons for this is because he did exactly as you describe.

So you think he wants to be in League 1 and is happy to make business decisions that will definitely keep him there? Honestly?

 

[Revolution]

So you think he wants to be in League 1 and is happy to make business decisions that will definitely keep him there? Honestly?

No. He wants promotion. There is no doubt about that.

His decision making has, however, been disastrous. This is just one example.

 

[Revolution]

My point is that if a Premier League club came in with a big bid for a League 1 player it would be extremely difficult to turn down. This is played out by the lack of examples of anyone acting differently in the same situation. You've perhaps highlighted that the perception might be one thing, but the reality another.

And you're right, the Murphy deal highlighted that we sell to the Championship – we should be stronger on that, and I'm not arguing that it's acceptable for a promotion-hunting team to sell to a league that we could be in the following year (which is why I criticised that at the time). But that is totally different to a bid from two divisions higher.

If Spurs bid £3m in January for Adams I expect he'll be off and while disappointed I wouldn't be angry. It would be a very gutsy move to reject that from the board, and seemingly unique for a League 1 side to do. That's my point.

I'll be furious, because it will show that this club has learned nothing (unless we actually use the money to buy good players, but for obvious reasons I'll believe that when I see it).

The PL thing is just a fig leaf for you to rationalise it for yourself internally, and to defend it if it happens.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

The PL thing is just a fig leaf for you to rationalise it for yourself internally, and to defend it if it happens.

Or, alternatively (and more accurately) recognition of the reality we are in. Probably one of the best impacts of promotion would be that it would strengthen our position to keep hold of our better players.

If you don't think there's any difference between a bid from the Championship and the Premier League you are quite mad.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Just checked: it was promotion-chasing Championship West Ham that Huddersfield turned down a bid from for Rhodes in the Jan 2012 transfer window when he was banging them in.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-reject-5-2m-Jordan-Rhodes-bid-Blackburn.html

According to this report, Huddersfield rejected a bid of £5.2M from Blackburn for Rhodes on 6th August 2012.
24 days later on the 30th August 2012 they sold him to Blackburn for £8M.
Doesn't fit your criteria but a good example of a club persistently rejecting offers until they get the best deal possible for them.

 

[Revolution]

Or, alternatively (and more accurately) recognition of the reality we are in. Probably one of the best impacts of promotion would be that it would strengthen our position to keep hold of our better players.

If you don't think there's any difference between a bid from the Championship and the Premier League you are quite mad.

There's a difference to the player between a bid of, say, 3 million quid from a Championship club and 3 million quid from a PL club.

There is no difference to SUFC. We don't get anything if the bids are the same.

And we can say no. I know you won't accept this, but we can say no if they are under contract. We should try it occasionally.

 

[Revolution]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-reject-5-2m-Jordan-Rhodes-bid-Blackburn.html

According to this report, Huddersfield rejected a bid of £5.2M from Blackburn for Rhodes on 6th August 2012.
24 days later on the 30th August 2012 they sold him to Blackburn for £8M.
Doesn't fit your criteria but a good example of a club persistently rejecting offers until they get the best deal possible for them.

And after he had got them promoted!

 

[LoughboroBlade]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-reject-5-2m-Jordan-Rhodes-bid-Blackburn.html

According to this report, Huddersfield rejected a bid of £5.2M from Blackburn for Rhodes on 6th August 2012.
24 days later on the 30th August 2012 they sold him to Blackburn for £8M.
Doesn't fit your criteria but a good example of a club persistently rejecting offers until they get the best deal possible for them.

Indeed. As we did ourselves for Maguire and Hull. The ultimate point being that they were not able to stop the move ultimately. This was a game of poker on the bidding process – not resolve. Also, Huddersfield weren't League 1 at that stage. Weren't they both Championship clubs? Imagine if that had been us – meltdown x 10000 on here!

 

[LoughboroBlade]

There's a difference to the player between a bid of, say, 3 million quid from a Championship club and 3 million quid from a PL club.

There is no difference to SUFC. We don't get anything if the bids are the same.

And we can say no. I know you won't accept this, but we can say no if they are under contract. We should try it occasionally.

If it were so easy to do so, I assume you can give me an example then where a League 1 club has done this when a Premier League club has tried to sign one of their players? This is sort of what I asked for earlier...

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Indeed. As we did ourselves for Maguire and Hull. The ultimate point being that they were not able to stop the move ultimately. This was a game of poker on the bidding process – not resolve. Also, Huddersfield weren't League 1 at that stage. Weren't they both Championship clubs? Imagine if that had been us – meltdown x 10000 on here!

I'm not so sure...
I don't remember Huddersfield publically rejecting £8M than having the embarrassment of chasing after Blackburn saying "Sorry, we said originally no but we've changed our mind and we'd love to accept your bid really" (as we did with Maguire and Hull).

Maybe Huddersfield set a price they were willing to accept and on the eve of the transfer window, Blackburn increased their bid to match it.
That's how to play poker. We got caught bluffing.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

I'm not so sure...
I don't remember Huddersfield publically rejecting £8M than having the embarrassment of chasing after Blackburn saying "Sorry, we said originally no but we've changed our mind and we'd love to accept your bid really" (as we did with Maguire).

Maybe Huddersfield set a price they were willing to accept and on the eve of the transfer window, Blackburn increased their bid to match it.
That's how to play poker. We got caught bluffing.

That seems quite a fair assessment. But would the reaction on here have been "I'm really glad we held on for a really big fee from our fellow league side Blackburn", or outright rage, with multiple 'same owd' threads?

 

[Bladesway]

Tried to look up Murdoch converts in the dictionary but it didn't make much sense, realist is probably a better word. Do I ever wonder how what got where? The club? Yes, with fans a long time ago before football was fucked by money and managed like a business from the top through to the bottom, times have changed since we became what we are and fans have to realise it, every club up and down the land sells their assets to balance the books and attempt to make a profit. As a business yes we have to invest in better equipment to improve but how do you suggest we pay for the better equipment when the business is losing money despite investment from the owners? That's right, by raising capital and selling assets, nearly 3m profit on an asset we have would represent good business given his impact and allow the manager to strengthen, whether he does this successfully or not is a whole other subject and not the point I was making.

You talk like Che is the messiah and without him we 100% won't get promoted but with him we 100% will and for that reason should turn every single bid down regardless - it won't happy, Nigel and the board will have a price for every player and if someone comes close to that price then they will be sold. Sorry to break it to you, but thats how football works circa 2015 for all clubs.

The only time we should sell our best players is if we have someone better lined up to replace them. Otherwise how the fuck are we going to go forward? Che isn't the messiah (go on tap it in), but he is one of the best prospects we have had and just giving him away won't help us. We do agree in one area, everyone has their price, but everyone elses price seems twice as much at least as ours. If we didn't put out like a whore on a first date, dropping our knickers to the first offer perhaps we wouldn't be here.

Right now, we have to keep what is dear to us and almost fuck the consequences, otherwise we will be having this conversation in 10 years time with new owners who will plough us into oblivion and administration. So how will selling our best players help us then?

 

[Bladesway]

You don't think that deal represented value for money at the time? Regardless of how it was reinvested? You could always use Slew and Mellis as other examples of it working in our favour. Its a risk you take.

But we don't ever take the risk do we, its just a one way ticket to a transfer as far as we are concerned. Remember that girl at school who put out for everyone? Yep, that's us.

 

[S5Blade]

Kevin McCabe is in league one. One of the reasons for this is because he did exactly as you describe.

Selling Blackman was? Honestly?

The only time we should sell our best players is if we have someone better lined up to replace them. Otherwise how the fuck are we going to go forward? Che isn't the messiah (go on tap it in), but he is one of the best prospects we have had and just giving him away won't help us. We do agree in one area, everyone has their price, but everyone elses price seems twice as much at least as ours. If we didn't put out like a whore on a first date, dropping our knickers to the first offer perhaps we wouldn't be here.

Right now, we have to keep what is dear to us and almost fuck the consequences, otherwise we will be having this conversation in 10 years time with new owners who will plough us into oblivion and administration. So how will selling our best players help us then?

Just for clarity... I am not saying we do sell our players for the right price, not at all. What I am trying to say is;

We are a business
every player has a price
There is no way that the new owners (and probably previous owners) would sanction transfers for short term financial gain into a money losing business with no plan or assurances that they can be replaced / already have replacements at the club
In the past we have fucked up and not replaced adequately but is that the board or the managers fault? We could argue the point till the cows come home

 

[S5Blade]

But we don't ever take the risk do we, its just a one way ticket to a transfer as far as we are concerned. Remember that girl at school who put out for everyone? Yep, that's us.

How many bids / enquires did we turn down for harry before he went? There were rumours of bids for months and months and months before he was finally sold.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Selling Blackman was? Honestly?

Yes, and I was one of those that thought we could get someone better. Selling Blackman wasn't the problem in itself, but not buying a replacement was inexcusable. Add a goal scorer to that team and Wilson might have got us up that season.

 

[S5Blade]

Yes, and I was one of those that thought we could get someone better. Selling Blackman wasn't the problem in itself, but not buying a replacement was inexcusable. Add a goal scorer to that team and Wilson might have got us up that season.

I dont disagree... We literally robbed them blind to get that amount for him