CONFIRMED Calvert-Lewin sold to Everton

[Weasel]

In terms of the athlete, what's the starting point ability wise, none at all? Are we talking about athletes who have natural ability or athletes that don't?

Whilst i do enjoy your posts Barney and think you are often maligned from other posters who seem to see your profile and just dismiss anything you have to say out of hand before they actually bother to read and understand what you are trying to say, there are times when as an outsider you would appear to be argumentative for arguings sake. To me, this seems to be one of those occasions (only my opinion). In this instance i believe that you are incorrect but again that is only my opinion. It would be a boring old world if we all agreed with each other afterall.

 

[Barney]

Whilst i do enjoy your posts Barney and think you are often maligned from other posters who seem to see your profile and just dismiss anything you have to say out of hand before they actually bother to read and understand what you are trying to say, there are times when as an outsider you would appear to be argumentative for arguings sake. To me, this seems to be one of those occasions (only my opinion). In this instance i believe that you are incorrect but again that is only my opinion. It would be a boring old world if we all agreed with each other afterall.

Well, all I've said so far is that you can't coach natural footballing ability, so unless you think that's incorrect. I said this early on and the poster didn't correct his claim so I assumed this was what he was arguing. Now it appears that wasn't the initial claim I'm trying to establish the terms of exactly what the claim was, i.e how much natural ability the athlete needs to have for this scenario to take place. I can then make a judgement on the new information.

 

[Blade for Sale]

In terms of the athlete, what's the starting point ability wise, none at all? Are we talking about athletes who have natural ability or athletes that don't?

Think Ade Akinbiyi. Tremendous athlete, limited footballer. Managed to forge a career in the game based mainly on athletic ability and what football coaches managed to instill.

 

[davidblade]

In my humble opinion we should keep quiet about DCL limited ability and take as much money as we can. if they are daft enough to pay it . oops I should shut up.

 

[Weasel]

To be fair if the claim that Barney was saying was that you cant coach NATURAL ability then he is quite correct. You cant. A player either has natural ability or he doesnt. However the other posters seem to me to be saying that you can make an athlete a better footballet througj coaching them (correct you can) whereas a gifted footballer who cant run is no good to anyone (unless your Paul McGrath what a player he was). Both valid points and it seems that the points have crossed over into one at some stage.

 

[SE9 Blade]

No, he's saying enough football ability can be instilled into an athlete in order for them to make a fist of it in the game. On the other hand, a chap can have all the vision, technique and anticipation in the world, but if he can't run up and down the pitch for 90 mins he's not going to make it.

Oi! Leave Baxter out of it!

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Whilst i do enjoy your posts Barney and think you are often maligned from other posters who seem to see your profile and just dismiss anything you have to say out of hand before they actually bother to read and understand what you are trying to say, there are times when as an outsider you would appear to be argumentative for arguings sake. To me, this seems to be one of those occasions (only my opinion). In this instance i believe that you are incorrect but again that is only my opinion. It would be a boring old world if we all agreed with each other afterall.

On this occasion, it isn't just arguing the toss for shits and giggles and a bit of WUM. The original statement was agreeing with a point made by Dario Gradi. Now like it or not Barney is an Internet nobody whose opinion has the weight and substance of a Scougall tackle, yet he chooses in post after post to say that Gradi is wrong. Dario Gradi, the manager/coach responsible for so many great players over the years. It's the arrogance that irks, the guy has proved he knows what he's talking about.

 

[Bladeloyal]

Can't remember our greatest ever player being much of a athlete .but blessed by the gods

 

[Blade for Sale]

Can't remember our greatest ever player being much of a athlete .but blessed by the gods

Presume you mean TC. This may be blasphemy to some but he wouldn't last 5 minutes in todays game. Even the likes of Pirlo, who seem to coast through games without breaking sweat, are running 10km per match.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Can't remember our greatest ever player being much of a athlete .but blessed by the gods

You don't actually need to be that good at football technically either to cover up for a lack of athleticism and make a career in the game – Paul Coutts being a prime example.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Presume you mean TC. This may be blasphemy to some but he wouldn't last 5 minutes in todays game. Even the likes of Pirlo, who seem to coast through games without breaking sweat, are running 10km per match.

He would, great players would be great players in any age, even our most succesful man over there 《《《《

TC with current training methods and all the monitoring might be a stone lighter and be able to run further. He was always a stronger chuff than people thought, the weights would increase that.

 

[Bladeloyal]

Tc was god and he would be today .only one player has had his type of talent since that was hoddle .to say Currie couldn't do it today ,when football is shite compared to the late 60s early 70s is complete bollox

 

[Chali 2na]

So you're saying you can coach an athlete how to have natural footballing ability?

There is no such thing as "natural footballing ability".

The word natural implies that the player was born with footballing ability. Which of course is not the case. There are a few attributes a person could be born with that would help them become good footballers such as co-ordination and reflexes, but the majority of the skills that are needed to become a footballer (say ball control, technique etc.) Are learned through repetition.

For this reason, academies generally opt for gifted athletes, knowing that the technical aspects of football can be coached whereas little can be done about a players physiology.

This reminds me a little of the discussion some of us had on a John Akinde thread where I attempted to explain why East Africa produces the lions share of the world's best marathon runners: the world 'natural' could be applied here, as they are genetically designed for it.

 

[Blade for Sale]

Tc was god and he would be today .only one player has had his type of talent since that was hoddle .to say Currie couldn't do it today ,when football is shite compared to the late 60s early 70s is complete bollox

Sorry pal but take your red and white glasses off. Only Hoddle has matched Currie's in the last 40 odd years? He was a great player but that's about the biggest load of bollocks I've seen on a forum, and there's some stiff competition.

 

[Esablade]

There is no such thing as "natural footballing ability".

The word natural implies that the player was born with footballing ability. Which of course is not the case. There are a few attributes a person could be born with that would help them become good footballers such as co-ordination and reflexes, but the majority of the skills that are needed to become a footballer (say ball control, technique etc.) Are learned through repetition.

For this reason, academies generally opt for gifted athletes, knowing that the technical aspects of football can be coached whereas little can be done about a players physiology.

This reminds me a little of the discussion some of us had on a John Akinde thread where I attempted to explain why East Africa produces the lions share of the world's best marathon runners: the world 'natural' could be applied here, as they are genetically designed for it.

...I played at a decent semi-pro level and will always remember one manager saying that if only I'd been coached from an early age ( I started playing 'properly' in Sunday pub league's at 14 and got picked up from there) I could have done summat...the reflexes/instinct, natural fitness and co-ordination were there but not the basic technique's/consistency and repetition that being coached from an early age give you...ah what could have been lol...

Still, I saw load's of players both on the away up and down who'd been coached and pushed from an early age but were just bobar...

 

[Bert]

There is no such thing as "natural footballing ability".

The word natural implies that the player was born with footballing ability. Which of course is not the case. There are a few attributes a person could be born with that would help them become good footballers such as co-ordination and reflexes, but the majority of the skills that are needed to become a footballer (say ball control, technique etc.) Are learned through repetition.

For this reason, academies generally opt for gifted athletes, knowing that the technical aspects of football can be coached whereas little can be done about a players physiology.

This reminds me a little of the discussion some of us had on a John Akinde thread where I attempted to explain why East Africa produces the lions share of the world's best marathon runners: the world 'natural' could be applied here, as they are genetically designed for it.

At the Olympics you never see a black swimmer. Why?

 

[Bert]

Presume you mean TC. This may be blasphemy to some but he wouldn't last 5 minutes in todays game. Even the likes of Pirlo, who seem to coast through games without breaking sweat, are running 10km per match.

But the 2016 version of Tony Currie, would be much fitter, he wouldn't be out drinking, smoking and eating fish and chips like the 1971 version was.

 

[Chali 2na]

...I played at a decent semi-pro level and will always remember one manager saying that if only I'd been coached from an early age ( I started playing 'properly' in Sunday pub league's at 14 and got picked up from there) I could have done summat...the reflexes/instinct, natural fitness and co-ordination were there but not the basic technique's/consistency and repetition that being coached from an early age give you...ah what could have been lol...

Still, I saw load's of players both on the away up and down who'd been coached and pushed from an early age but were just bobar...

A prime example of natural athleticism is Anthony Joshua. Amazingly it wasn't until he was 18, when he took up boxing. In less than 10 years of training he has gone from no formal boxing training to world champion.

It's no wonder, when you see his physique.

 

[Blade for Sale]

But the 2016 version of Tony Currie, would be much fitter, he wouldn't be out drinking, smoking and eating fish and chips like the 1971 version was.

Agreed, and we seem to be straying from the point, which was, in the modern game, a natural athlete/limited footballer can learn enough football to get by, but a natural footballer/limited athlete is going to find it a great deal harder to do so. I still stand by that. I've no idea how much of a natural athlete TC was, but if he could only physically cover 6km a match before blowing out of his arse, he wouldn't stand a chance today.

 

[S5Blade]

At the Olympics you never see a black swimmer. Why?

Cullen Andrew Jones (born February 29, 1984) is an American competition swimmer and Olympic gold medalist who specializes in freestyle sprint events. As part of the American team, he holds the world record in the 4×100-meter freestyle relay (long course). At the 2012 Summer Olympics, he won silver medals in the 4 x 100-meter freestyle relay and the 50-meter freestyle, as well as the gold in the 4 x 100-metre medley.

 

[Chali 2na]

At the Olympics you never see a black swimmer. Why?

Lots of reasons, 2 main ones:

Socio-Economic reasons:
Swimming is an expensive sport, and a lot of money has to be spent of facilities. Money that most African nations simply don't have.

Biological and Physiological reasons:
Without getting too in depth, muscle and bone density, and muscle distribution.

It's hard saying just "black people" or "white people" because there are sub-divisions of race: East African's are generally physiologically different to West Africans. Nordic and North European white people are generally physiologically different to Mediterranean white people.

In short, it's nature vs nurture and both play a part.

 

[Esablade]

A prime example of natural athleticism is Anthony Joshua. Amazingly it wasn't until he was 18, when he took up boxing. In less than 10 years of training he has gone from no formal boxing training to world champion.

It's no wonder, when you see his physique.

I do think heavyweight boxing is a slightly different case, it always has been somewhat with a wide spectrum of 'athlete's' competing...just look at Tyson Fury at one end of that spectrum...

 

[Chali 2na]

Cullen Andrew Jones (born February 29, 1984) is an American competition swimmer and Olympic gold medalist who specializes in freestyle sprint events. As part of the American team, he holds the world record in the 4×100-meter freestyle relay (long course). At the 2012 Summer Olympics, he won silver medals in the 4 x 100-meter freestyle relay and the 50-meter freestyle, as well as the gold in the 4 x 100-metre medley.

Some might say he's the exception that proves the rule.

 

[Chali 2na]

I do think heavyweight boxing is a slightly different case, it always has been somewhat with a wide spectrum of 'athlete's' competing...just look at Tyson Fury at one end of that spectrum...

Yes, true. I'm not trying to directly compare football to boxing as it's a completely different skill set.
I only brought it up to illustrate that coaches in many sports look for athleticism with the knowledge that it can't be taught, unlike technical skills.

 

[Bladeloyal]

Sorry pal but take your red and white glasses off. Only Hoddle has matched Currie's in the last 40 odd years? He was a great player but that's about the biggest load of bollocks I've seen on a forum, and there's some stiff competition.

If you look what I wrote you would see type of player ,not saying there hasn't been some good ones .name me a player with Currie and hoddles type of talent in the last 25 years . And you don't need red and white specs to know football genius when you see it .not sure if you have ever seen those two play

 

[Bladeloyal]

Presume you mean TC. This may be blasphemy to some but he wouldn't last 5 minutes in todays game. Even the likes of Pirlo, who seem to coast through games without breaking sweat, are running 10km per match.

Even twofootedtackle at 50 was running 10k a game doesn't mean I was any good .

 

[BushBlade]

The trick nowadays is to keep an eye on all the Premiership academies and make sure you sign those who have been trained by top coaches for a few years but let go. Because they let a lot of them go.

There will be the odd one that will come good but a lot of the time they're released because they're not mentally tough enough or have the correct attitude.

I heard one of the Accy Stanley managers talking about this a couple of years ago and he said a lot of them can't cope with the physicality of L2 football. There is little contact in the u-21s compared to men's football and they don't learn to deal with it like a Dele Alli or Vardy has.

I heard another lower league manager last season saying that they take centre halves on trial and they can't defend. Their profiles are always 'good ball player, can play from the back' but they can't do basic defending.

It takes a lot of hard work to find the good ones, they're out there though. I'm hoping our new link with Man Utd's academy might bear a little fruit, perhaps not immediately but in time.

 

[Blade for Sale]

If you look what I wrote you would see type of player ,not saying there hasn't been some good ones .name me a player with Currie and hoddles type of talent in the last 25 years . And you don't need red and white specs to know football genius when you see it .not sure if you have ever seen those two play

Define 'that type of player'. Elegant all round midfielders? Gascoigne, Le Tissier, Pirlo, Iniesta, Xavi, Scholes, Guardiola, Riquelme.

 

[Bladeloyal]

I'll give you Gascogne and tiss on his day ,scholes great player but not of their type ,the others aren't British .so that's 4 such players in 40 years and Currie was the best of the lot ask hoddle Currie was his idol .Currie made the ball work 10 k .

 

[BushBlade]

I'll give you Gascogne and tiss on his day ,scholes great player but not of their type ,the others aren't British .so that's 4 such players in 40 years and Currie was the best of the lot ask hoddle Currie was his idol .Currie made the ball work 10 k .

I know TC and the rest gave a huge amount of pleasure to those that watched them so I don't want to sound critical but let's not forget we got relegated with them in the team and throughout the 'glory days' our older supporters hark back to, they won nowt.