Brentford model

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derekacorah

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A full Brentford is unsustainable in the long term. It’s a law of diminishing returns.

There’s a place for data based scouting, hence why the likes of Jay Socik of Bladespod fame are making a career out of it.

Something in between the 2 extremes of us and Brentford would be ideal.
 

ZLB

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Always look at Brentford (as probably most fans do) and think they have the perfect scouting/business model in terms of bringing lower league/abroad players in for really cheap, getting the best out of them and selling them on for profit e.g. Watkins, Benhrama, and no doubt Toney will be next. Obviously they’ve not been promoted but it will inevitably happen because there always knocking at the door. Can anyone explain why it wouldn’t be possible for a club like us (especially now we have Premier League money and parachute payments next season) to set up a scouting system/recruitment style like this? I understand we probably have scouts abroad to track players (Berge, Retsos etc) but when you think of the money spent on the English signings that we’ve made over the past 2 years you start to get shafted for 20 million pound players which are championship standard at best. And won’t sell for what we paid.
Not for me. I prefer the Crewe model.
 

Classof85

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For me the Brentford model is massively flawed.

1. they scrapped their academy - no pathway for young brentford fans to one day play for the club - this inturn leads to losing the younger fanbase.
2. they spend more on scouting than the big 6. So if its that good why arent they competing with the big 6
3. If we had followed their model we wouldnt have had brooks et al to sell to balance the books
 

Badger Blade

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I think somewhere in between.

It'd be great if we could pluck a Kante or Mahrez out of nowhere like Leicester did or like how Leeds have plucked a few obscure foreigners like Klich, Alioski, Jansson etc rather than piss money away like we have done this season.

Having some kind of proper foreign scouting network couldn't do us any harm, we must have some sort of network when we've got some foreign players in the academy, Ayari for example.
 

RWE

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The season Brooks started 8 games?
My whole point was selling players at the right time like Brentford... (I know we sold him to get Egan, Norwood etc) but I was talking about an overall model to follow.
 

BanderSerge

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My whole point was selling players at the right time like Brentford... (I know we sold him to get Egan, Norwood etc) but I was talking about an overall model to follow.
“Imagine if Brooks had that season for Brentford they wouldn’t have sold him for anything less than 20 million”
 

Yogi

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I think somewhere in between.

It'd be great if we could pluck a Kante or Mahrez out of nowhere like Leicester did or like how Leeds have plucked a few obscure foreigners like Klich, Alioski, Jansson etc rather than piss money away like we have done this season.

Having some kind of proper foreign scouting network couldn't do us any harm, we must have some sort of network when we've got some foreign players in the academy, Ayari for example.
Think we signed Ayari from Ireland if memory serves. I do think we picked up a Canadian lad for the academy this year though directly from a Canadian side after a successful trial so maybe we are slowly expanding in that regard.
 

RWE

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“Imagine if Brooks had that season for Brentford they wouldn’t have sold him for anything less than 20 million”
Fuck me... talk about nit picking. Just asking a genuine question. They probably would’ve sold him for that with the amount of hype he had at the time too.
 

BlairBlade

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It is possible to set up a similar system but it takes time Brentford are almost a decade in to using their particular model. I think Barnsley are looking at doing something similar but this season is the first one it’s started to come to fruition. Also it requires a continental head coach model rather than a traditional British manager run system so it wouldn’t be possible with the current coaching staff. Therefore if we were to commit to something like that we’d probably have to endure some significant short to medium term pain before it started to show signs of success.
What about the pain of this season?
If we have to endure this there ought to an expectation of something much, much better in the future.
(No doubt I will upset some people daring to suggest that a Blade should expect anything or dare to type such a thing. But we are entitled to expect so much more than the garbage served up this season.)
A decent scouting system here and abroad doesn’t seem to be one of them.
 

pommpey

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and Mousset doesnt help or sway his mind its a good idea either.

I think Wilder has to ask questions of himself why he signed a benchwarmer with 3 goals out of 50 odd appearances from Bournemouth (as a striker, too) who had no hope of breaking into the team at Bournemouth who had come here with a whiff of 'idler wheel'* about him. Again, when he came, I don't think there was a United fan who wasn't reaching for Wikipedia and Youtube to find out about him rather than punching the sky with 'what a fucking signing!' in full knowledge Moussett would frankly destroy opposition defences in the coming season. He has never completed 90 minutes on English soil, bagged six goals last season and has shown worrying levels of commitment and fitness. This 'assessment game' coming up for Wilder - can't see it turning him round much.

Ten million. Ten fucking million. What exactly made Wilder think he had a decent player on his hands?

pommpey

*idler wheel: A part of a transmission system which revolves with the main gear train (thereby eating up energy) but actually drives nothing because it is disconnected and is there 'by design' for no specific purpose at all
 
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Millhousesblade1889

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Brentford’s structure has been in place over a number of years now, that’s apparent by how easily they replace managers when they’re poached yet don’t step backwards. I agree they have a fantastic structure in place playing attacking possession football, but we’d literally have to change everything about the club inc the complete infrastructure to copy their model.
 

o caranguejo

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It’s understandable it’s a very attractive model in terms of the type of players you can recruit and the success rate but it’s just very hard to implement.

As mentioned further up the thread, I'd see quite a bit of short term pain with the theory, it is a brave / bold move by any club considering it.

The likes of Brentford and Barnsley were / are starting from a fairly low base. Something had to change at Barnsley as they were basically Rotherham but a tiny bit better.

I would also argue that this is a model that the Pigs should follow should they find a chairman who would invest and take the initial hit.

For the likes of us, the base is considerably higher, and the risks greater. But I do see more clubs adopting the strategy.
 

Bladeinleeds

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The Brentford model is dependent on the owners background and primary business interests. Completely unfeasible for "normal" clubs. Every fan of every club from the bottom ten of the prem downwards is calling for the Brentford model.In a way it's legalised financial doping as the money they put into it must be astronomical. It's primary purpose is not scouting players though.

brentford have made untold millions from clever scouting and selling for a profit. We are far too unimaginative in our approach and it’s cost us over the last 18months.

we’ve spend millions and millions. We could afford to put the infrastructure of some computers and some analysts which is all Brentford have done really if we were that way inclined.
 

ancientblade

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but how many years have brentford spent in the premier league ??? 🤔🤔🤔
 

robbiez666

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For people pointing out that Brentford haven't been in the PL, it's worth having a look at their ins and outs over the years. They've made a profit every year. Normally a large one in percentage terms. How many teams have gone up without (in real terms) spending money on transfers? I'm not entirely sure their management wants to go up. Does their system actually work if they're a PL side? It's one thing risking a few million on whether a player will gain value. Another risking 10-20 million every time.
 

Revolution

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Brentford haven't been in the PL, and they have made errors (Egan and O'Connell for example) like everyone else, but they are having their most successful spell on the field since the 1930s and they have built a new stadium. They are doing a lot of things right.
 

Revolution

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I think Wilder has to ask questions of himself why he signed a benchwarmer with 3 goals out of 50 odd appearances from Bournemouth (as a striker, too) who had no hope of breaking into the team at Bournemouth who had come here with a whiff of 'idler wheel'* about him. Again, when he came, I don't think there was a United fan who wasn't reaching for Wikipedia and Youtube to find out about him rather than punching the sky with 'what a fucking signing!' in full knowledge Moussett would frankly destroy opposition defences in the coming season. He has never completed 90 minutes on English soil, bagged six goals last season and has shown worrying levels of commitment and fitness. This 'assessment game' coming up for Wilder - can't see it turning him round much.

Ten million. Ten fucking million. What exactly made Wilder think he had a decent player on his hands?

pommpey

*idler wheel: A part of a transmission system which revolves with the main gear train (thereby eating up energy) but actually drives nothing because it is disconnected and is there 'by design' for no specific purpose at all

The Mousset deal cannot be dismissed as a complete failure. As you say, he had 3 goals in 50 appearances - and doubled that output last season in about 30 games. Plus there were assists. The goal at Everton was very important as it sealed a first away win. The winner against Arsenal - same. Showed we could win against a big club.

For a team scoring a goal a game at best, scoring 6 times and creating a few others is an incredibly valuable contribution. It helped us get a second PL season and made us a lot of money. Indeed, as unpalatable as it may sound, I wonder whether 6 goals for 9 million or 10 million or whatever it was is the going rate.

The second year of the Mousset deal has been a disaster, but the first year cannot be dismissed as a failure. Same goes for McBurnie actually. I thought he was disappointing, but 6 goals is not nothing. Both players have collapsed form wise, but they did useful things last year. The better question is why their form has collapsed.

That was the sort of deal I would have liked to have seen tried this year. Someone with PL experience who had a lot of upside. Like Besic. Sadly we went only for younger players. Big error.
 

McGrath

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I read somewhere that thr Brentford model will struggle badly from now on due to new Home Office immigration rules post-Brexit.

From now on they can't easily sign up young talented footballers from the continent on the cheap as these footballers will have to have International caps and have played a certain amount of first team games.

So even if we wanted to follow the Brentford model, it might be a non-starter.
 

Bladeinleeds

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I read somewhere that thr Brentford model will struggle badly from now on due to new Home Office immigration rules post-Brexit.

From now on they can't easily sign up young talented footballers from the continent on the cheap as these footballers will have to have International caps and have played a certain amount of first team games.

So even if we wanted to follow the Brentford model, it might be a non-starter.

smart teams are smart teams irregardless of the rules.

Brexit wouldn’t have stopped them buying Ivan Toney for about 25% of what we paid for Brewster. They will find ways around it I am sure, and if the pool is shrinking it’s more incentive to make sure we are taking a modern and analytical approach to the money we spend. Which will be substantially less going forward
 

DeanLearner'sCat

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We already have a "statistic-based model" as Wilder and Bettis talked about last year. It's a bit of a myth that our recruitment is simply based on Chris Wilder's opinion.
 

Yogi

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What about the pain of this season?
If we have to endure this there ought to an expectation of something much, much better in the future.
(No doubt I will upset some people daring to suggest that a Blade should expect anything or dare to type such a thing. But we are entitled to expect so much more than the garbage served up this season.)
A decent scouting system here and abroad doesn’t seem to be one of them.
You’re right a decent scouting system should be our expectation and with the clubs new found wealth and status in the game I expect us to be working towards establishing one. The difference between that and Brentford’s model is the extent to which their scouting is driven by the data and the funds required to establish and maintain such a comprehensive system there’s a reason it’s still a pretty unique way of doing things and that’s the cost in both time and funds.
 

Need4speed

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I think somewhere in between.

It'd be great if we could pluck a Kante or Mahrez out of nowhere like Leicester did or like how Leeds have plucked a few obscure foreigners like Klich, Alioski, Jansson etc rather than piss money away like we have done this season.

Having some kind of proper foreign scouting network couldn't do us any harm, we must have some sort of network when we've got some foreign players in the academy, Ayari for example.
It would be great but alot of clubs including ourselves with Mousett have signed a load of crap foreign players for a lot of money and they quietly disappear back to where they came from on loan or sold cheaply to get the wages off the books
 

Yogi

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As mentioned further up the thread, I'd see quite a bit of short term pain with the theory, it is a brave / bold move by any club considering it.

The likes of Brentford and Barnsley were / are starting from a fairly low base. Something had to change at Barnsley as they were basically Rotherham but a tiny bit better.

I would also argue that this is a model that the Pigs should follow should they find a chairman who would invest and take the initial hit.

For the likes of us, the base is considerably higher, and the risks greater. But I do see more clubs adopting the strategy.
I don’t think the pigs can anymore but they would certainly have been better served doing something similar whilst the chairman still had some money left. The main prohibitive factor for clubs adopting such a model is like any business the set up cost and after that the amount of time it takes before you start turning a profit.

Also the more clubs do it the less effective it is as the amount of players who are productive but undervalued decreases and they’re no longer undervalued because everyone knows about them.
 

ancientblade

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For people pointing out that Brentford haven't been in the PL, it's worth having a look at their ins and outs over the years. They've made a profit every year. Normally a large one in percentage terms. How many teams have gone up without (in real terms) spending money on transfers? I'm not entirely sure their management wants to go up. Does their system actually work if they're a PL side? It's one thing risking a few million on whether a player will gain value. Another risking 10-20 million every time.
we had 2 very succesful years back in the championship and 1 in the premier league thats still more than brentford have achieved dont see the obsession with brentford
 

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