Berge to man city for 38m

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A Storm of Blades said:
You’ve just described Declan Rice. For which the bidding would start at £50m (rightly or wrongly).
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Rice's valuation will start at £80 mill i reckon , possibly £100mill if West Ham finish in the top 4 this season
 

A Storm of Blades said:
Fair enough but if one of the reasons Rice is worth £50m is because he plays in a team pushing for Europe, then Berge playing in the Champions League holds equal weight in my view
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For me, Rice is a far better player than Berge and will be worth at least double or even treble what Berge is worth
 
Who knew there were so many expert football administrators and intermediaries amongst the ranks on here? Intimate knowledge of clauses within agreements, expert knowledge market valuations etc, - it's a wonder the club don't reach out to some people to provide assistance.

BTW - anyone who stated they didn't want Lingard or think he was good enough is automatically discounted.
 
A Storm of Blades said:
Fair enough but if one of the reasons Rice is worth £50m is because he plays in a team pushing for Europe, then Berge playing in the Champions League holds equal weight in my view
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I’m personally not putting any weight on playing in Europe, or for national sides. Some right shite have ticked that box.

The point being made about Rice pushing for Europe was a measure of success of the team he’s in, and hence his contribution.

Contrast with Berge, who’s team are getting royally relegated, and who’s football quality dropped and never recovered from the minute he was wedged in to our formation.
 
Wouldn't it be nice if we kept all our players until next January, when we could then be in a far better position to evaluate where we are in the league and have a much clearer picture on what each player is worth.
You never know, with fresh leadership and new ideas we could find ourselves where Norwich and Watford are and be no need to sell.
One can only hope.
 
Farnboroughblade said:
Wouldn't it be nice if we kept all our players until next January, when we could then be in a far better position to evaluate where we are in the league and have a much clearer picture on what each player is worth.
You never know, with fresh leadership and new ideas we could find ourselves where Norwich and Watford are and be no need to sell.
One can only hope.
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It would be nice, but Norwich and Watford also offloaded some good players. It’s a reality of relegation.
 
JackSUFC said:
Genk reportedly have a 20% sell on clause, so we need be driving the price up if anyone does come in with an offer.

It makes me smile when people say we should be happy to sell for what we paid for him, around £20m etc. It wouldn’t be what we paid for him, it’d be a loss.
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They would only be due 20% of any profits from the sale. So it wouldn't be a loss.
 
The major issue is that Berge isn’t like any midfielder we have, nor does he fit neatly into the way Wilder had us setup to play. I was excited about him because I thought he was the start of our next iteration of our midfield formation and playing style which we’d further build on last summer, but we didn’t.
He is a best deployed in a defensive shielding role or even better as a double pivot with essentially a number 10 in front of them. He needs our new midfield to be built round him and his talent and potential deserve that if he stays. Fleck, Norwood and Lunny aren’t the players he needs but you drop him into a midfield who are technically sound and able keep the ball in tight areas at this level you’ll see an entirely different player. Next season Fleck and Norwood’s limitations won’t be as impacting although I’d like to see both replaced and if we keep Berge I’d rather lose both. As with Brewster and McBurnie if we tweek our 3-5-2 setup and our safety first mentality we’d start to see the players we thought we were buying. Berge is no more a Norwood ping machine or box to box midfield than McBurnie is a Madine big lump to launch the ball to, or Brewster is a Billy Sharp box finisher. We need to evolve the side as the players we had and style we played weren’t good enough to sustain our place in the league.
 
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Mouth of the South said:
BTW - anyone who stated they didn't want Lingard or think he was good enough is automatically discounted.
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What about those who thought that Lingard would touch us with a shitty stick?!

I'd have loved to have seen Lingard play for us, it was just never going to happen on his wages and based on our league position in January.
 
Flatulent_Bob said:
The major issue is that Berge isn’t like any midfielder we have, nor does he fit neatly into the way Wilder had us setup to play. I was excited about him because I thought he was the start of our next iteration of our midfield formation and playing style which we’d further build on last summer, but we didn’t.
He is a best deployed in a defensive shielding role or even better as a double pivot with essentially a number 10 in front of them. He needs our new midfield to be built round him and his talent and potential deserve that if he stays. Fleck, Norwood and Lunny aren’t the players he needs but you drop him into a midfield who are technically sound and able keep the ball in tight areas at this level you’ll see an entirely different player. Next season Fleck and Norwood’s limitations won’t be as impacting although I’d like to see both replaced and if we keep Berge I’d rather lose both. As with Brewster and McBurnie if we tweek our 3-5-2 setup and our safety first mentality we’d start to see the players we thought we were buying. Berge is no more a Norwood ping machine or box to box midfield than McBurnie is a Madine big lump to launch the ball to, or Brewster is a Billy Sharp box finisher. We need to evolve the side as the players we had and style we played weren’t good enough to sustain our place in the league.
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“Berge isn’t a ping machine” - Another one off the list then.

The problem I have is that there’s a long list of things that aren’t a strength of his.

Ask for a list of things that are his strengths, and you get “he sees things others don’t”, “he’s been poor because others have”, “our style doesn’t suit him”, “he’s played champions league, don’t you know”

I accept I’m no expert, but I would expect given his admirers, a list could be created of objective things he actually excels at?
 
alcoblade said:
“Berge isn’t a ping machine”. Another one off the list then.


The problem I have is that there’s a long list of things that aren’t a strength of his.

Ask for a list of things that are his strengths, and you get “he sees things others don’t”, “he’s been poor because others have”, “our style doesn’t suit him”, “he’s player champions league, don’t you know”

I accept I’m no expert, but I would expect given his admirers, a list could be created of objective things he actually excels at?
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See also Ollie McBurnie.
 

alcoblade said:
“Berge isn’t a ping machine” - Another one off the list then.

The problem I have is that there’s a long list of things that aren’t a strength of his.

Ask for a list of things that are his strengths, and you get “he sees things others don’t”, “he’s been poor because others have”, “our style doesn’t suit him”, “he’s played champions league, don’t you know”

I accept I’m no expert, but I would expect given his admirers, a list could be created of objective things he actually excels at?
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Clearly Berge splits the camp, but genuine question to those on the overhyped side of the fence

If you don't rate Berge and don't see many positives about his time at the Lane, you'd happily (or wouldn't be bothered about) take what we paid for him in any sale? Or maybe a little bit less?
 
I don't think Berge has shown anywhere near his best consistently for us.

That could be down to a combination of a new country, Covid disruption and mostly imho, that our system didn't suit his best attributes.

I still stand my view from last year though...that we'll sell him for a profit to one of the big clubs.
 
JonnyD said:
Clearly Berge splits the camp, but genuine question to those on the overhyped side of the fence

If you don't rate Berge and don't see many positives about his time at the Lane, you'd happily (or wouldn't be bothered about) take what we paid for him in any sale? Or maybe a little bit less?
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I would, yes.

By “don’t rate”, it has to be considered in the context of a £25m asset. He’s not Martin Woolford. :)
 
alcoblade said:
“Berge isn’t a ping machine” - Another one off the list then.

The problem I have is that there’s a long list of things that aren’t a strength of his.

Ask for a list of things that are his strengths, and you get “he sees things others don’t”, “he’s been poor because others have”, “our style doesn’t suit him”, “he’s played champions league, don’t you know”

I accept I’m no expert, but I would expect given his admirers, a list could be created of objective things he actually excels at?
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To my untrained eye, Berge excels at:
  • dribbling: he averages 1.5 dribbles per game this season for United, 0.5 higher than anyone else)
  • passing: at 85.8% he's got the best pass completion rate of any United player to have played more than 15 minutes this season
  • one on one defending: he's dribbled past 0.5 times per game which is by far the best record of any of our midfielders (by comparison, Osborn is dribbled past 1.1 times, per game, Lundstram & Norwood are 1.2 times and Fleck 1.6)

His biggest weakness is his left foot.

If you don't see how he's hampered by the shitshow around him then your understanding of the game is different to mine. I see a player capable of taking the ball forward 20-40 yards but who is then forced to make a backwards or sideways pass owing to the complete lack of options as his teammates are either hiding or haven't adapted and moved forwards when Berge makes his break. We've also played him out of position at RCM when he's clearly best as a '6': a deep lying playmaker/regista.

Here's a scouting view from his time at Genk: https://www.scoutedftbl.com/best-young-football-players/sander-berge/
 
Balham Blade said:
To my untrained eye, Berge excels at:
  • dribbling: he averages 1.5 dribbles per game this season for United, 0.5 higher than anyone else)
  • passing: at 85.8% he's got the best pass completion rate of any United player to have played more than 15 minutes this season
  • one on one defending: he's dribbled past 0.5 times per game which is by far the best record of any of our midfielders (by comparison, Osborn is dribbled past 1.1 times, per game, Lundstram & Norwood are 1.2 times and Fleck 1.6)

His biggest weakness is his left foot.

If you don't see how he's hampered by the shitshow around him then your understanding of the game is different to mine. I see a player capable of taking the ball forward 20-40 yards but who is then forced to make a backwards or sideways pass owing to the complete lack of options as his teammates are either hiding or haven't adapted and moved forwards when Berge makes his break. We've also played him out of position at RCM when he's clearly best as a '6': a deep lying playmaker/regista.

Here's a scouting view from his time at Genk: https://www.scoutedftbl.com/best-young-football-players/sander-berge/
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I agree with what you say there. They do seem to be his strengths. Are they the strengths of a £25m to £40m footballer? Not for me. Also, he’s not a risk taker (IMO), which flatters those stats.

I think we agree that our shape doesn’t suit him.

It’s also clear that he’s playing in a poor side - but when saying that it has to be acknowledged that they weren’t poor before he arrived.
 
alcoblade said:
I agree with what you say there. They do seem to be his strengths. Are they the strengths of a £25m to £40m footballer? Not for me. Also, he’s not a risk taker (IMO), which flatters those stats.

I think we agree that our shape doesn’t suit him.

It’s also clear that he’s playing in a poor side - but when saying that it has to be acknowledged that they weren’t poor before he arrived.
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https://www.football365.com/news/every-20m-signing-ever-made-by-a-premier-league-club

Have a look at the link above. As absurd as it is, 25-40m is almost the going rate for a top flight player. Whilst its a huge amount of money to a club like ours, its par for the course for a player who could potentially start for a big club. Also worth noting value and ability are not directly linked (see 18m for Oli Mcburnie...)

Sure there's some genuine top class players in that bracket, but theres also some dross. Wages, potential resale value, length of contract all dictate a transfer fee

Additionally whilst these may not strictly mean much, they all add to a players worth: Young International, bags of potential, played in Champions League, played in the Premier league, shown glimpses of ability to dominate games, already sold for 20m (ish) - to suggest a value in todays market of less than 30m is ludicrous!
 
alcoblade said:
I agree with what you say there. They do seem to be his strengths. Are they the strengths of a £25m to £40m footballer? Not for me. Also, he’s not a risk taker (IMO), which flatters those stats.

I think we agree that our shape doesn’t suit him.

It’s also clear that he’s playing in a poor side - but when saying that it has to be acknowledged that they weren’t poor before he arrived.
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The thing is that we weren't great last season but what we did have was a combination of a never-say-die attitude and absolute conviction in both self and others. It's not an exaggeration that almost everyone was playing at 110% of their basic ability from August to March and the team as a whole was playing at around 150%. The shocking thing has been how quickly the whole thing has unravelled and that was started by something so simple as pushing the wingbacks back and thereby nullifying us as an attacking threat and highlighting a chronic lack of mobility in the midfield.

I'd also suggest that your benchmarking of £25-40m footballers is slightly outdated. There have been 45 players bought by PL teams for £20-40m over the past two seasons, of which 10 are central midfielders. In this list, Berge doesn't look overpriced - particularly against Gbamin and van de Beek who are the two closest to him in age.

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Balham Blade said:
The thing is that we weren't great last season but what we did have was a combination of a never-say-die attitude and absolute conviction in both self and others. It's not an exaggeration that almost everyone was playing at 110% of their basic ability from August to March and the team as a whole was playing at around 150%. The shocking thing has been how quickly the whole thing has unravelled and that was started by something so simple as pushing the wingbacks back and thereby nullifying us as an attacking threat and highlighting a chronic lack of mobility in the midfield.

I'd also suggest that your benchmarking of £25-40m footballers is slightly outdated. There have been 45 players bought by PL teams for £20-40m over the past two seasons, of which 10 are central midfielders. In this list, Berge doesn't look overpriced - particularly against Gbamin and van de Beek who are the two closest to him in age.

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I completely accept that if Berge finds himself an established premier league player, he’s of that value - I think he’s well short of that quality, that’s my point.

And the most important point is that (up to now) he’s totally ineffectual for us. So given we will need to raise funds, he’s the obvious choice. At which point, I really hope you’re nearer the mark than me. :)

And there’s some totally shite players that have fooled people into big fees. Burke being a great example. So again, let’s hope you’re right.
 

Think Norwich only sold 2 players, so surely we would be in a better position after a further year in the prem. Unless of course they want to go
 
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