Berge to man city for 38m

[alcoblade]

Think Norwich only sold 2 players, so surely we would be in a better position after a further year in the prem. Unless of course they want to go

But Norwich spent nothing on players when they went up, we've spent £125,000,000.

 

[alcoblade]

...but that had some good ones left also. Do we ?

Well, it seems some think Berge is worth £38,000,000

 

[Mouth of the South]

Think Norwich only sold 2 players, so surely we would be in a better position after a further year in the prem. Unless of course they want to go

Norwich's financial position when they were promoted with Utd was far more precarious but compare how much they spent last season compared to Utd. They played the long game by almost accepting relegation but then being stronger to bounce straight back with most of the squad in tact. I suspect Utd's squad may look quite different at the start of next season.

 

[Hockey'sBeard]

Who Is Osbourne ?

Yep you got me - put it down to fat fingers predictive text and someone in my phone with name Osbourne I work with. Still stand by my comments on Osborn as well

 

[Pedro Verde]

Norwich's financial position when they were promoted with Utd was far more precarious but compare how much they spent last season compared to Utd. They played the long game by almost accepting relegation but then being stronger to bounce straight back with most of the squad in tact. I suspect Utd's squad may look quite different at the start of next season.

It will be intersting to see their approach next season
Will they spend nothing again or will they attempt to stop up by adding to their squad
If they want to stop up they need to add ready made quality players unlike United who gambled on younger players

 

[Balham]

But Norwich spent nothing on players when they went up, we've spent £125,000,000.

Norwich's wage bill was still £10m higher than ours last season and they also weren't carrying half a league one squad with them in the PL. That doesn't excuse the poor recruitment decisions we've made but the theory is that we could recover most of what we've invested - and almost certainly more than their current book value - because we've bought young players who still have room to grow.

 

[alcoblade]

Norwich's wage bill was still £10m higher than ours last season and they also weren't carrying half a league one squad with them in the PL. That doesn't excuse the poor recruitment decisions we've made but the theory is that we could recover most of what we've invested - and almost certainly more than their current book value - because we've bought young players who still have room to grow.

I'd be astounded if we recouped what we'd paid for any of our big signings - in fact I'd be surprised if we got half back (in total) right now.

Of course, if they go on to be successful that can all change, but that's another story.

The point I was addressing is that Norwich still sold some of their best players, despite having a fraction of our capital outlay. As you said - their wages were higher - so all of this just goes to show that comparisons are difficult. The only constant is that relegated side will inevitable sell some players.

 

[Yogi]

I'd be astounded if we recouped what we'd paid for any of our big signings - in fact I'd be surprised if we got half back (in total) right now.

Of course, if they go on to be successful that can all change, but that's another story.

The point I was addressing is that Norwich still sold some of their best players, despite having a fraction of our capital outlay. As you said - their wages were higher - so all of this just goes to show that comparisons are difficult. The only constant is that relegated side will inevitable sell some players.

Yeah it’s difficult to draw like for like comparisons but I wouldn’t mind If our medium term aim was to be like Norwich. They were relegated in worse shape than we are now retooled invested in their off field facilities and came back on a much more stable footing and now look nailed on to be promoted again for a third time.

 

[alcoblade]

Yeah it’s difficult to draw like for like comparisons but I wouldn’t mind If our medium term aim was to be like Norwich. They were relegated in worse shape than we are now retooled invested in their off field facilities and came back on a much more stable footing and now look nailed on to be promoted again for a third time.

Unless we're bought be a billionaire, it's inevitable that the best we can hope for is to be a yoyo club for a few years, come back stronger each time and hopefully become established.

I'm concerned that we aren't getting relegated in a stronger position that Norwich. They've kept their manager and style of play. I think they have better players overall - we were more based on a system that suited what we've got, and a polished methodology. Even at our height, Norwich's players were being rated higher than ours. We've since brought in new players, and seemingly invested badly.

Time will tell. I hope you're right.

 

[Yogi]

Unless we're bought be a billionaire, it's inevitable that the best we can hope for is to be a yoyo club for a few years, come back stronger each time and hopefully become established.

I'm concerned that we aren't getting relegated in a stronger position that Norwich. They've kept their manager and style of play. I think they have better players overall - we were more based on a system that suited what we've got, and a polished methodology. Even at our height, Norwich's players were being rated higher than ours. We've since brought in new players, and seemingly invested badly.

Time will tell.

Yeah I think we will need a yoyo approach in order to catch up with our competition after the game left us behind during those years in league one.

I meant the first time Norwich dropped under lambert I think? When they had Naismith and wolfswinkle and a load of unsustainable contracts. After that the appointed farke (I think the boards hoping for our own version in blessin) and took a more sustainable stable approach which has paid dividends on and off the field and has secure them one promotion and what looks like being another this year.

 

[A Storm of Blades]

Unless we're bought be a billionaire, it's inevitable that the best we can hope for is to be a yoyo club for a few years, come back stronger each time and hopefully become established.

I'm concerned that we aren't getting relegated in a stronger position that Norwich. They've kept their manager and style of play. I think they have better players overall - we were more based on a system that suited what we've got, and a polished methodology. Even at our height, Norwich's players were being rated higher than ours. We've since brought in new players, and seemingly invested badly.

Time will tell.

I agree - Norwich had a much better squad to tackle bouncing back. Particularly going forward. We’re looking at a club wide rebuild, which could go well or go west.

 

[LudlamBlade]

I was thinking about it during the Leeds game when were were determined to repeatedly give the ball away on the edge of our box how much better would we have been with a player who could put their foot in the grass turn and run 30-40 yards with the ball and then look to play. He’s a great pressure reliever and trigger for an attack he’d be great in a system with a floating number 10 type playmaker.

Personally I think he's got the potential to be absolutely class in that mezzala role, however to know how deep that potential runs, I'd want to see him as part of a better midfield unit than our current one. Only time will tell.

 

[Yogi]

Personally I think he's got the potential to be absolutely class in that mezzala role, however to know how deep that potential runs, I'd want to see him as part of a better midfield unit than our current one. Only time will tell.

I don’t think we’ll be the ones to see the best of Berge unfortunately the rest of the squad pretty much needs blowing up and rebuilding at this point and if the reported fees are in the ball park for him then his sale coupled with the parachute money will probably fund that and some much need facilities improvement.

 

[Houston_Blade]

The thing with the Berge sale as well is that we only really have to get around £15m for him to break even on the deal. His value in the books at present will be around £15-£16m depending on exactly what we paid and a 5 year contract (it may have been 4.5 years, can’t remember). If we get back £23m we’re laughing financially.

 

[Balham]

I'd be astounded if we recouped what we'd paid for any of our big signings - in fact I'd be surprised if we got half back (in total) right now.

Of course, if they go on to be successful that can all change, but that's another story.

The point I was addressing is that Norwich still sold some of their best players, despite having a fraction of our capital outlay. As you said - their wages were higher - so all of this just goes to show that comparisons are difficult. The only constant is that relegated side will inevitable sell some players.

You're right, the comparisons are almost impossible. Norwich's default match day squad was Krul (Brighton, free), Aarons (youth), Godfrey (York, £2.75m), Zimmermann (Dortmund II, free)/Hanley (Newcastle, £3.5m), Lewis (youth); McLean (Aberdeen, £200k), Tettey (Rennes, £1.5m in 2012!), Buendia (Getafe, £1.5m), Stiepermann (Bochum, £1.5m)/Trybull (youth), Cantwell (youth); Pukki (Brondby, free). They shopped cleverly in Europe (Zimmermann, Stiepermann, Buendia, Pukki) and had a very good streak from their academy (Lewis, Aarons, Cantwell, Trybull). That gave them a base that they could bring in experience or potential at a low-ish rate to bolster (Hanley, McLean, Godfrey).

We've paid big money repeatedly for potential - Berge, Brewster, McBurnie, Ramsdale - and added them to the base of Championship/League One players. It worked last season we've looked like a team well out of its depth. Perhaps telling for me is that our midfield is made up of a free transfer from Coventry, a £700k signing from Oxford, a £1.5m signing from Brighton and a £22.5m signing from Genk. We should have a couple of £3-7m signings, either from the continent or the Championship, in there to challenge or phase out Norwood, Lundstram and Fleck before we added the big money signing in Berge. Same goes for the defence which is made up of a free transfer from Blackpool, a £4m signing from Brentford and a £250k signing from Brentford backed up by two free transfers, a £500k signing from Forest and two out of position wingbacks.

We seem to have gone down the revolution not evolution route, paying top 10 Premier League level fees before we were a top 10 team, last season's exceptional finish notwithstanding.

The thing with the Berge sale as well is that we only really have to get around £15m for him to break even on the deal. His value in the books at present will be around £15-£16m depending on exactly what we paid and a 5 year contract (it may have been 4.5 years, can’t remember). If we get back £23m we’re laughing financially.

This. Our five biggest signings cost £78.5m between them but at the end of the season they'll be on the balance sheet for a collective £51.5m or so. Anything above that gets recorded as a profit on disposal.

 

[Booker4]

You're right, the comparisons are almost impossible. Norwich's default match day squad was Krul (Brighton, free), Aarons (youth), Godfrey (York, £2.75m), Zimmermann (Dortmund II, free)/Hanley (Newcastle, £3.5m), Lewis (youth); McLean (Aberdeen, £200k), Tettey (Rennes, £1.5m in 2012!), Buendia (Getafe, £1.5m), Stiepermann (Bochum, £1.5m)/Trybull (youth), Cantwell (youth); Pukki (Brondby, free). They shopped cleverly in Europe (Zimmermann, Stiepermann, Buendia, Pukki) and had a very good streak from their academy (Lewis, Aarons, Cantwell, Trybull). That gave them a base that they could bring in experience or potential at a low-ish rate to bolster (Hanley, McLean, Godfrey).

We've paid big money repeatedly for potential - Berge, Brewster, McBurnie, Ramsdale - and added them to the base of Championship/League One players. It worked last season we've looked like a team well out of its depth. Perhaps telling for me is that our midfield is made up of a free transfer from Coventry, a £700k signing from Oxford, a £1.5m signing from Brighton and a £22.5m signing from Genk. We should have a couple of £3-7m signings, either from the continent or the Championship, in there to challenge or phase out Norwood, Lundstram and Fleck before we added the big money signing in Berge. Same goes for the defence which is made up of a free transfer from Blackpool, a £4m signing from Brentford and a £250k signing from Brentford backed up by two free transfers, a £500k signing from Forest and two out of position wingbacks.

We seem to have gone down the revolution not evolution route, paying top 10 Premier League level fees before we were a top 10 team, last season's exceptional finish notwithstanding.



This. Our five biggest signings cost £78.5m between them but at the end of the season they'll be on the balance sheet for a collective £51.5m or so. Anything above that gets recorded as a profit on disposal.

View attachment 110644

Norwih signed relatively cheap players from Europe, none of which would qualify now to come over by current work permit rules, so it'll be interesting to see how many teams continue in the Championship to shop abroad. That doesn't change the fact that they shopped well abroad and as you say have a very good youth policy.

But I don't think our signings this summer or last will prove to be bad buys. Norwich couldn't with their model bridge the gap between the Championship and the Prem, whereas we did. Going forward we'll be more like Norwich I would imaagine but that will prove a harder model as I say. It seems from reading recent articles that we're going for "under valued" players who are decent players, obviously, but for whatever reason are not going to cost lots. That sounds great, but that may also mean that they take time to develop and we need players this summer to go straight into the starting eleven for the midfield essentially, and possibly another LCB if JOC continues with injuries, or even if he doesn't.

Maybe we'll use to loan market this summer which has been mentioned that, that was the plan had Wilder stayed, no sure if that was Wilder's preferred option or the board.

Whatever model we go for I'm very optimistic that out of the relegated three teams we'll be the strongest as the vast majority of this squad shoulde excel in the Championship and we don't have numerous loan players like WBA and Fulham do, who they'll not likely keep unless they're Championship quality anyway.

Next season it's only the midfield that concerns me and JOC, the rest looks very promising for Championship level. I'm particularly optimistic with Bogle and RND to come in on the flanks, full backs or wing backs; we'll have much moe creavitiy going forward and both have excelled at that level with time to further improve.

 

[ancientblade]

our problems are offensively were very poor in midfield and up front the warning signs were there last season relying on our defence to get us 1 goal victories we need more pace and athleticism in midfield and up front

 

[Sheff de party]

He's an odd one Berge. He's really only had 2 influential games so far in 20 odd games against Chelsea and Spurs last summer. He's been decent in a few more, although he seems to tire early in many games and in a few games he's looked decidedly average. How his worth has gone from £22m to £38m on the basis of those games is a bit of a mystery to me.

On that basis, Jaden Bogle's worth must have quadrupled this season.

Prices are driven by a club’s wealth and player’s contract, versus a player’s desire to leave. Obviously there’s ability and potential in there, but there’s about Berge to suggest he doesn’t have lots of the latter.

Given we’re on a solid financial footing, he’s got the quality and showed it occasionally, still young and he has 3 years left, it makes perfect sense to me why a club that doesn’t want to sell is looking for 30 million plus.

 

[ancientblade]

Prices are driven by a club’s wealth and player’s contract, versus a player’s desire to leave. Obviously there’s ability and potential in there, but there’s about Berge to suggest he doesn’t have lots of the latter.

Given we’re on a solid financial footing, he’s got the quality and showed it occasionally, still young and he has 3 years left, it makes perfect sense to me why a club that doesn’t want to sell is looking for 30 million plus.

unless theres a price release cause in his contract we should be putting a minimum 30m price tag on berge

 

[Mouth of the South]

The thing that would ensure Utd maximise Berge's sale price is him proving his fitness and hopefully showing some sort of form before the end of the season.

In terms of fee - it's pointless speculating. He'll simply go for how much someone is willing to pay.

 

[Sean Thornton]

May as well just say £50m and make it a bit more unbelievable. £38m

You say that, but Arsenals attendances in the eighties weren’t that good.

 

[ormester]

Yep would be chuffed with that - stick on a 10% sell on n all and i think we should be happy with that.

At least 20%

 

[AdamSufc1997]

Norwih signed relatively cheap players from Europe, none of which would qualify now to come over by current work permit rules, so it'll be interesting to see how many teams continue in the Championship to shop abroad. That doesn't change the fact that they shopped well abroad and as you say have a very good youth policy.

But I don't think our signings this summer or last will prove to be bad buys. Norwich couldn't with their model bridge the gap between the Championship and the Prem, whereas we did. Going forward we'll be more like Norwich I would imaagine but that will prove a harder model as I say. It seems from reading recent articles that we're going for "under valued" players who are decent players, obviously, but for whatever reason are not going to cost lots. That sounds great, but that may also mean that they take time to develop and we need players this summer to go straight into the starting eleven for the midfield essentially, and possibly another LCB if JOC continues with injuries, or even if he doesn't.

Maybe we'll use to loan market this summer which has been mentioned that, that was the plan had Wilder stayed, no sure if that was Wilder's preferred option or the board.

Whatever model we go for I'm very optimistic that out of the relegated three teams we'll be the strongest as the vast majority of this squad shoulde excel in the Championship and we don't have numerous loan players like WBA and Fulham do, who they'll not likely keep unless they're Championship quality anyway.

Next season it's only the midfield that concerns me and JOC, the rest looks very promising for Championship level. I'm particularly optimistic with Bogle and RND to come in on the flanks, full backs or wing backs; we'll have much moe creavitiy going forward and both have excelled at that level with time to further improve.

Isn't the work permit issue is only a problem for under 21 players with no games played at professional level? Players Norwich signed would still qualify

 

[Booker4]

Isn't the work permit issue is only a problem for under 21 players with no games played at professional level? Players Norwich signed would still qualify

What do the new Brexit rules mean for Norwich City?

Norwich City's sporting model for the last three years has been predicated on recruiting from abroad and constructing a diverse first-team that…

www.pinkun.com

No mate, it applies to senior level too. This article regarding Norwich City's model seems fairly detailed but in practice I think we'll only know how it's going to work from this summer onwards.

The crucial quote from the above article is this

"That points system will be based on international appearances (both at senior and youth level), the quality of the selling club and the ranking of their domestic league and club appearances based on league minutes and games in European competitions".

I would imagine at EFL level it'll be much harder to bring in players from abroad as EFL clubs are much less likel to be able to afford internationals and that seems crucial to now signing players from abroad and even then Teemu Pukki for example wouldn't meet current regulations if Norwich wanted to sign him as they did previously - according to the article. I suspect that's because Pukki wasn't playing in a top league - Denmark, would be a factor. However Barnsley signed Dike recently post Brexit who only has one cap for the US and was playing in the MLS, whereas Pukki had over 50 games when Norwich signed him and Denmark is surely of a similar if not higher standard than the MLS, and Brondby regularly play in European competition. It doesn't seem straightforward to me at all.

I'm no expert on this, but I would imagine that we'll have to use the domestic market more this summer - ironically - but the plan is to get promoted, obviously, and then be able to take advantage of the foreign market more, according to Yorkshire Live. We could still have signed Berge under current rules because Berge is an international and was playing in European football for Genk I presume. Maybe Norway are rated higher than Pukki's Finland also when it comes to points for quality of international team the incoming player represnts.

There is the exceptions panel of course and as the article says we'll have to wait to see how robust that is, or whether the rules are bendable. Maybe teams will sign more players from other markets such as South America and the U.S as these leagues are subject to the same rules as players from the EU now.

 

[Yogi]

What do the new Brexit rules mean for Norwich City?

Norwich City's sporting model for the last three years has been predicated on recruiting from abroad and constructing a diverse first-team that…

www.pinkun.com

No mate, it applies to senior level too. This article regarding Norwich City's model seems fairly detailed but in practice I think we'll only know how it's going to work from this summer onwards.

The crucial quote from the above article is this

"That points system will be based on international appearances (both at senior and youth level), the quality of the selling club and the ranking of their domestic league and club appearances based on league minutes and games in European competitions".

I would imagine at EFL level it'll be much harder to bring in players from abroad as EFL clubs are much less likel to be able to afford internationals and that seems crucial to now signing players from abroad and even then Teemu Pukki for example wouldn't meet current regulations if Norwich wanted to sign him as they did previously - according to the article. I suspect that's because Pukki wasn't playing in a top league - Denmark, would be a factor. However Barnsley signed Dike recently post Brexit who only has one cap for the US and was playing in the MLS, whereas Pukki had over 50 games when Norwich signed him and Denmark is surely of a similar if not higher standard than the MLS, and Brondby regularly play in European competition. It doesn't seem straightforward to me at all.

I'm no expert on this, but I would imagine that we'll have to use the domestic market more this summer - ironically - but the plan is to get promoted, obviously, and then be able to take advantage of the foreign market more, according to Yorkshire Live. We could still have signed Berge under current rules because Berge is an international and was playing in European football for Genk I presume. Maybe Norway are rated higher than Pukki's Finland also when it comes to points for quality of international team the incoming player represnts.

There is the exceptions panel of course and as the article says we'll have to wait to see how robust that is, or whether the rules are bendable. Maybe teams will sign more players from other markets such as South America and the U.S as these leagues are subject to the same rules as players from the EU now.

I think championship clubs will still be able to sign foreign players but they’ll have to come from highly rated divisions which probably means the days of finding undervalued gems in the Scandinavian leagues are over. Unless you can still buy those players and loan them out to a high enough ranked European league like.....Belgium there just might be method in the madness.

 

[Booker4]

I think championship clubs will still be able to sign foreign players but they’ll have to come from highly rated divisions which probably means the days of finding undervalued gems in the Scandinavian leagues are over. Unless you can still buy those players and loan them out to a high enough ranked European league like.....Belgium there just might be method in the madness.

The last point is what we've done with Coulibaly of course and the hope must also be that he'll win international caps also.

On your first point I'm not so sure signing players from say the Bundesliga will be possible unless they're internationals, for say Austria. I say Austria because I can't see us signing too many Germany internationals! It may be that we can sign older players who are nearer the end of their career but have enough points to merit a move, but I would imagine the model will be to sign younger players who have a sell-on value. I think it'll be more like the Coulibaly model in the short term, until we can sign more players like Berge.

The Prince must know what he's doing with recruitment and Brexit because he's only just bought the French club, hasn't he? I think the new rules will affect clubs who want to do the Norwich model far more than where we're at currently because we have money coming down from the PL and can sign the better players from the Champ, unless they have PL interest.

 

[Yogi]

The last point is what we've done with Coulibaly of course and the hope must also be that he'll win international caps also.

On your first point I'm not so sure signing players from say the Bundesliga will be possible unless they're internationals, for say Austria. I say Austria because I can't see us signing too many Germany internationals! It may be that we can sign older players who nearer the end of their career but have enough points to merit a move, but I would imagine the model will be to sign younger players who have a sell-on value. I think it'll be more like the Coulibaly model in the short term, until we can sign more players like Berge.

The Prince must know what he's doing with recruitment and Brexit because he's only just bought the French club, hasn't he? I think the new rules will affect clubs who want to do the Norwich model far more than where we're at currently because we have money coming down from the PL and can sign the better players from the Champ, unless they have PL interest.

I don’t think international caps are necessarily a must have a think you can get the requisite amount of points by playing enough games in a high enough league. I’m fairly sure some posters have pointed out that Coulibaly would now qualify based on the amount of games he’s played.

Yeah it will effect a Norwich or even more so Brentford who look for undervalued players from less highly rated leagues. It’s going to require players stopping off in other leagues before coming to England.

 

[BushBlade]

Yeah I think we will need a yoyo approach in order to catch up with our competition after the game left us behind during those years in league one.

I meant the first time Norwich dropped under lambert I think? When they had Naismith and wolfswinkle and a load of unsustainable contracts. After that the appointed farke (I think the boards hoping for our own version in blessin) and took a more sustainable stable approach which has paid dividends on and off the field and has secure them one promotion and what looks like being another this year.

Hughton. Lambert left them to go to Villa. (Gone to fucking Villa, how I hate that phrase now). Then Alex Neil took them back up but couldn’t keep them up.

 

[ForgeBlade]

I like him. I watched him play for Genk in the CL, and as a result I jumped on the hype-train when we signed him. My personal opinion (it is just that mind you) is that he has the attributes to play at the top level for the rest of his career.

I think he's going to be a sad casualty (from our perspective at least) of Covid. Barely had time to integrate himself properly before the lockdown hit, and it must have been fucking awful for him, a young lad, early 20's, moved to a new country, but unable to do the normal things you'd do in his situation. It must have taken a huge toll on him mentally.

If it is unavoidable that he leaves, then I'll be ok if we recoup what we paid for him. But I'd much rather he had a think, and came to the conclusion that he could have a team built around him if he stays, and that he might, in the long run, be better off doing a season or 2 in the championship, proving his worth, and returning to the prem either (hopefully) with us, or by impressing enough that someone splashes out big bucks on him that we can't say no to.

I'm no armchair manager, and I'm not an expert in the intricacies of somehow managing to watch all 11 players simultaneously for the duration of every match. But what I saw, I liked. I think in years to come we'll watch him and say "we brought him to England, shame we couldn't keep him," as opposed to "why did we spaff £20m on him?"

Just my 2p-worth.

 

[Ukkonen]

I like him. I watched him play for Genk in the CL, and as a result I jumped on the hype-train when we signed him. My personal opinion (it is just that mind you) is that he has the attributes to play at the top level for the rest of his career.

I think he's going to be a sad casualty (from our perspective at least) of Covid. Barely had time to integrate himself properly before the lockdown hit, and it must have been fucking awful for him, a young lad, early 20's, moved to a new country, but unable to do the normal things you'd do in his situation. It must have taken a huge toll on him mentally.

If it is unavoidable that he leaves, then I'll be ok if we recoup what we paid for him. But I'd much rather he had a think, and came to the conclusion that he could have a team built around him if he stays, and that he might, in the long run, be better off doing a season or 2 in the championship, proving his worth, and returning to the prem either (hopefully) with us, or by impressing enough that someone splashes out big bucks on him that we can't say no to.

I'm no armchair manager, and I'm not an expert in the intricacies of somehow managing to watch all 11 players simultaneously for the duration of every match. But what I saw, I liked. I think in years to come we'll watch him and say "we brought him to England, shame we couldn't keep him," as opposed to "why did we spaff £20m on him?"

Just my 2p-worth.

100% agree with everything you've said in that post, will be gutted if Sander left.