Help me out...what is it that Selles is asking them to do, that is so difficult?

[maidmarion]

Some good comments in this thread.

I think another problem could be that the style of management and the personality of the managers is so different. Wilder is such a blokey , bloke( and of course he’s one of our own) and Selles seems more of a thinker( and a foreigner to boot)Perhaps it’s more the change of attitude in the manager that’s got to the players and probably the supporters too.

It’s always difficult when change happens.Some players will adapt and some will want out. This probably won’t happen as quick as we would like but hopefully , if we get some new players in, players that the manager needs not what some computer has said we need, then we should only see improvement.

Onwards and upwards……

 

[Edgar Allan Poo]

Either way he has a week to train, drill and for the players to practice his style of play before Millwall arrive on Saturday with the realisation that most fans will expect to see some sort of improvement by then.

 

[lakedistblade]

By asking more players to press forward our middle third is emptied out. The players remaining there were easily pressed by Swansea so there were frequent occasions where we lost the ball. Also seemed to struggle to find a forward pass because although we had players forward they were not finding space and the gap to the man on the ball was too far. The opposition are not clueless and seem to find us easy to work out - see Bristol City in second half. Players are now losing confidence which just compounds the issue. We have quality players - put simply his ideas don’t work when countered by harder working well organised and motivated teams.

 

[finlaytheblade]

We don't have a functioning defence.
It's really that simple.

It did start with the defence and problems with transition.Confidence has took a big knock in a week! Why?.
One defeat shouldn't destroy our confidence so it goes deeper than that!.
For me it has to stem from the owners who have left there man with no support at all,A paper thin squad selling there best players with no sign of recruits! Do they think Selles can work miracles with what's left + a few young players.
2 or 3 scenarios here ! No money! ,taking advice from an adviser or advisers, ! Or maybe they beleave it will come right.
I have been coming to matches for over 70 years ! Have seen this situation bite us many times ! Lose confidence and good players just stop performing team spirit hits rock bottom relegation has happened many times.
We are at the cross roads with owners who seem totally out of there depth! Just who has been advising them ! If anybody.
We have 2 weeks to find a way or this is going to be a long season.
Bramall Lane can be quite a toxic environment if the fans get the idea that players just aren't putting the effort in.
Waiting for developments quickly and the chief exec has to front up
With a few answers!!

 

[Wards]

Should be said that a lot of this wouldn't be an issue if we were able to keep hold of the ball better, but we turn it over with such regularity that I'm not sure the players ever settle into any patterns

 

[blade67]

To be completely honest, I am not the most tactically astute when it come to football, and understanding patterns of play etc.

I know when a team is playing well and when they are not, even if I can't always articulate why. I can also generally spot where there are weak points in the team, but not always.

There is a lot of talk about the players not being able to adapt to what he wants from them. But what exactly is this and how does it differ that much from what they should be able to do as professional footballers?

Based on what I saw pre season and in that great 20 minute spell against Brizzle, when I compare to last season it just seemed much quicker and more attack minded. But aside from losing a couple of key players, what else is making the players struggle?

I'm equally ignorant, but my take is the following, based entirely on the Bristol game (Birmingham was a different team, and I didn't watch yesterday)

He played 433, with two full backs pushing on which is their natural game.

His 3 man midfield consisted of 2 number 10's who play all their best football going forwards and a young number 8, who likes to get around the pitch (playing most of last season alongside Souza, a natural number 6).

In front of them he had 2 wingers and a centre forward. The 2 centre backs are a young lad stapling up from league 1 and a lad who's career has been shot by two horrific injuries.

The result was we got hammered and it seemed that his ask was to play to win 5-4.

The problem is that we didn't score our chances and they did, which saps confidence.

The whole approach looks ridiculously naive in my opinion and will lead to him being sacked if he doesn't change this approach

 

[Broomhall Blade]

Should be said that a lot of this wouldn't be an issue if we were able to keep hold of the ball better, but we turn it over with such regularity that I'm not sure the players ever settle into any patterns

Someone said that Birmingham murdered us on Wednesday and I pointed out they didn't. Yes they deserved to win but most of their chances were down to us giving the ball away cheaply.

 

[Wards]

Someone said that Birmingham murdered us on Wednesday and I pointed out they didn't. Yes they deserved to win but most of their chances were down to us giving the ball away cheaply.

It's brain-dead stuff at times, and I don't know how much is down to instruction or the players just being slack but the number of turnovers, especially in our half, must be really high.

 

[Servigliano]

If any new manager seeks to suddenly impose a style of play that's radically different from one that has proven successful then imho he's in for trouble.
There's usually very good reasons that a successful team plays the way it does and it was no accident that Wilder played 4-2-3-1 then latterly the good old 4-4-2 . It was a no brainer abandoning 3 at the back as sadly age and injuries had taken their toll.
We'd had a disaster in the PL and Wilder knew from day 1 there was no chance of that team being fit for a promotion push. Resources were as ever limited but he built his team round a big target man, and an even bigger CH. He inherited a great midfield and 4-2-3-1 was the system that best suited those players and they excelled at it - we were easily the best team last season until injuries and bad luck blew us away.

Basically that's a long way round of saying if it ain't broke don't fix it.
In partial defence of Seles he's had the rug pulled from under his feet with the sale of our best defender and our best defensive midfielder. I don't think Seles could be blamed for that but he could probably have kept Moore, our only target man for 4-4-2 and especially 4-2-3-1.
In short, I don't think the players are best suited to the new style. If Seles is good enough AND given the brass he should be able to create the team he wants but that will take time and owners want instant success. Some communication from them would be useful ie "we'll back him financially but success will take time" would be good to hear.
Time will tell, but if things don't improve fast I doubt he'll get the time so it'll be manager merry-go-round again.
Come back Wilder/Hecky - all is forgiven.....

 

[metalblade]

Once again yesterday we could see the players blowing out of their arses after 60mins this three games into a long season, why do other teams look a lot fitter than our lads? It was the same last season so I can't put it down to Selles wanting them to press more although if they are chasing the ball all the time it won't help. We know Swansea are a possession based team if we had let them have the ball in their own half they wouldn't hurt us why chase the ball like schoolkids in a 20 a side small playground game? The time to run about a bit is when we have the ball.
Another thing we saw last season was very little movement from our players so when we have the ball it goes backward as we have no one in space or it is passed to a player who is marked and we lose possession, can anyone say that has changed after watching the game yesterday?
Maybe our players are just not good enough but since that 1st Wilder Premier league season I have watched teams come to the lane who find space pass the ball better than we do and who seem to have a plan on how to play and not all of them have been good teams I might add. All we seem to have done for a few years is get in front by a moment of quality and hang on for grim death to get a one goal win. It is so frustrating watching Sheffield United.

 

[Brownieblade]

I think Selles has watered his approach slightly the last two games in the sense of trying to ensure we aren’t as open as we were against brizzle

He tried a bit of wilder tactics by hoping to not concede and grab a goal but clearly players are still struggling to adapt

 

[William Large]

To be completely honest, I am not the most tactically astute when it come to football, and understanding patterns of play etc.

I know when a team is playing well and when they are not, even if I can't always articulate why. I can also generally spot where there are weak points in the team, but not always.

There is a lot of talk about the players not being able to adapt to what he wants from them. But what exactly is this and how does it differ that much from what they should be able to do as professional footballers?

Based on what I saw pre season and in that great 20 minute spell against Brizzle, when I compare to last season it just seemed much quicker and more attack minded. But aside from losing a couple of key players, what else is making the players struggle?

I think that regardless of patterns of play and the ‘en vogue’ ways of describing tactics (which have been done for years but now given a fancy tag - high press, low block etc) a solid and well drilled defence is the key to sustained success across a season.

Unless your attacking play (subsequently converted into goals!) and ball possession is so vastly superior you are always going to be vulnerable.

The high intensity and high press game which I am told he appears to favour (although seeing much evidence of that so far) needs a defensive plan for when we lose the ball otherwise a well played forward ball to pacey attackers catches us out every time.

For the past few seasons at least, we have looked dreadful when pressed high but again have no really outlet to counter that (like Notts Forest do so well).

It’s seems like a difficult job for a new man to impose a new style of play with players who have been bought to play and be comfortable in a different style particularly when seemingly not backed by the owners to get his players in.

That said, how hard is it for professional footballers to play in a different manner having had all preseason to practice. It’s not like we are asking them to suddenly play rugby.

In the mean time he has to find a way to win games as already fans are losing faith. Rightly or wrongly with him.

 

[Wards]

I like that he adjusted but I think we got the balance wrong. We were to gung-ho against Bristol City but the game could've very easily swung in our favour during the first half and seen us 2 or 3 up. If that happens then none of this is being discussed.

In many respects I'd have preferred us to stay on that path but with some very minor tweaks, the midfield yesterday for example looked more balanced (on paper anyway, just a shame Gus and Peck were dire). At least the players looked more comfortable with that approach v Bristol, even if it ended in disaster. The players also looked like they enjoyed playing that way. We ended up losing comfortably but the scoreline didn't really reflect how the game was played. Over a season I'd expect it to even itself out and we'd win more of those type of games than we'd lose.

 

[54yrblade]

Selles has been let down. From above by the board and below by the players feeling sorry for themselves.

Stop feeling pity and making excuses for grown men, supposed professionals, well paid and, we know, skilled yet apparently only now incapable of doing the basics properly.

This isn't f*king Spacejam!!

They just don't fancy it.

They're bottling it

 

[Snake]

I don't buy all this.... 433, 4231, 5311 etc etc bollocks. I see things far more simply and maybe a little more old fashioned. It really is a case of of keep it out at one end and put it in at the other.

In the summer transfer window last season Wilder did a fantastic job. On the money he generated through sales and wages freed up through contracts ending, he brought it a very good mix of cheapish young players who would be comfortable at Champ level and assets in the future. He brought in some frees on good wages who would add a bit more quality to the group. He brought in some young loans who had the potential to be match winners. He brought in a couple of 'been there, done that' no nonsense big fuckers to add strength and leadership to that young group. He also complemented this with some exciting up and coming academy players.

However.................. due to a mix of historical factors and simply being able to attract the type of player he did, we had quite an unfit and injury prone group. Wilder knew this, so adopted a game management and tactical approach to maybe get 60 minutes of quality from certain players, rather than 90 minutes of being alreight but blowing out of their arse.

Unfortunately, he made a total pigs ear of the January transfer window and that, in addition to the terrible luck with injuries that we had, was his ultimate downfall. That group of players could not play 46 league games at the level that Burnley and Leeds were increasingly setting. We all know what ultimately happened. And that game against Sunderland probably encapsulated the whole of the previous 46 game campaign in 90 minutes.

Our problem now. Selles is trying to get those very same players - assembled to play in a particular strategic way - to play this lovely modern fashionable approach of high intensity, risk/reward, full on "chaotic" football. We simply have not got the playing infrastructure in place to play this way. For all the shit that Wilder got, he wasn't daft, he played the way he did for a reason.

We are at a crossroads now. The owners have gone missing, Selles looks like he hasn't got a clue what to do next, and the players look absolutely fucked off physically and mentally.

Don't get me wrong, I'm behind Selles and really really hope he can pull us through this. But I'm worried, very worried.

 

[Ginger Gnome]

For Millwall we should go back to the Bristol City tactics, hopefully with competent central defenders and Soumare rather than Peck in front of them. The idea that nobody know what Selles wants is bollocks as they did it fine throughout preseason, just do that.

 

[Alfiesdad]

Jan Age explained it brilliantly, our forward press is loose and uncoordinated. It's too easy at times to play through, they're then too slow or too unwilling to retrieve the situation so we always look outnumbered.
The fullbacks play high so when we lose the ball, the opposition can play easy channel balls into the spaces left behind to put us on the back foot. The defensive cover to combat this is absent or ineffective.
We don't mix up our tactics to keep the opposition guessing, they know exactly what we do and set traps.
The players aren't fit enough to play this way for 90mins. Even if they were, they couldn't maintain it for 46 games.
There's not enough height in the team or enough fight for that matter.
The players don't look bothered, which is inexcusable really and we've not even played against a good side yet.

 

[71Blade]

We don't have a functioning defence.
It's really that simple.

But if we had a functioning def mid, mid, and attack maybe that would help

 

[Sraboys]

The problem is selles want to play attacking football but when the opposition break we getting caught out in defence the midfielder player don’t know if they playing strikers or defence he’s got to sort this style of football out and ask owners for more money to play this way

 

[Blacksea]

It's Bassettball which we played in the late 80ies and got us promoted twice,fast and mobile players,high tempo,getting forward as fast as possible,pressuring the opponent.
That's what Forest,Palace, Bournemouth etc are playing with better players,refined tactics and more physical and fitter players.

 

[Toronto Blade]

I'm equally ignorant, but my take is the following, based entirely on the Bristol game (Birmingham was a different team, and I didn't watch yesterday)

He played 433, with two full backs pushing on which is their natural game.

His 3 man midfield consisted of 2 number 10's who play all their best football going forwards and a young number 8, who likes to get around the pitch (playing most of last season alongside Souza, a natural number 6).

In front of them he had 2 wingers and a centre forward. The 2 centre backs are a young lad stapling up from league 1 and a lad who's career has been shot by two horrific injuries.

The result was we got hammered and it seemed that his ask was to play to win 5-4.

The problem is that we didn't score our chances and they did, which saps confidence.

The whole approach looks ridiculously naive in my opinion and will lead to him being sacked if he doesn't change this approach

Alabama thought the players were trying hard but the system wasn't working

 

[Not_a_Cheat]

I was disappointed it was changed that much. Notable that Barry and Hamer had a lot less of the ball and we looked to be no threat. I actually thought I must have missed Hamer being subbed off at one point.

Game 1- Team that looks excellent in attack, created alot of chances with decent possession. Very shaky at the back although unfortunate to concede too many.

Game 2- Plan abandoned, as limp as ever in attack with key players barely involved. Still shaky at the back although fortunate we played a fairly poor side not as clinical as Bristol.

I was oddly positive after the Bristol game. Nothing to be positive about after Swansea.

What about game 3, or have we only lost 2 competitive professional football matches in a ROW

 

[Rodley]

Some good comments in this thread.

I think another problem could be that the style of management and the personality of the managers is so different. Wilder is such a blokey , bloke( and of course he’s one of our own) and Selles seems more of a thinker( and a foreigner to boot)Perhaps it’s more the change of attitude in the manager that’s got to the players and probably the supporters too.

It’s always difficult when change happens.Some players will adapt and some will want out. This probably won’t happen as quick as we would like but hopefully , if we get some new players in, players that the manager needs not what some computer has said we need, then we should only see improvement.

Onwards and upwards……

It doesn’t matter if you’re intellectual, a bloody bloke, or whatever. It matters if you can manage and motivate people. From Wenger, to Ferguson, to Warnock, some people know how to galvanise a group. Your background is largely irrelevant.

 

[BladeInIreland]

What about game 3, or have we only lost 2 competitive professional football matches in a ROW

Don't count the cup, like the club seemingly.

 

[Frank the tank]

I wonder if he's asking them to not bother breaking sweat because they seem to have grasped that

 

[Youngand70]

It did start with the defence and problems with transition.Confidence has took a big knock in a week! Why?.
One defeat shouldn't destroy our confidence so it goes deeper than that!.
For me it has to stem from the owners who have left there man with no support at all,A paper thin squad selling there best players with no sign of recruits! Do they think Selles can work miracles with what's left + a few young players.
2 or 3 scenarios here ! No money! ,taking advice from an adviser or advisers, ! Or maybe they beleave it will come right.
I have been coming to matches for over 70 years ! Have seen this situation bite us many times ! Lose confidence and good players just stop performing team spirit hits rock bottom relegation has happened many times.
We are at the cross roads with owners who seem totally out of there depth! Just who has been advising them ! If anybody.
We have 2 weeks to find a way or this is going to be a long season.
Bramall Lane can be quite a toxic environment if the fans get the idea that players just aren't putting the effort in.
Waiting for developments quickly and the chief exec has to front up
With a few answers!!

Too true I totally understand you, been going down BDTBL for 63 years, now Bettis is on the Board I can't see him fronting up while has has a hole in his arse.

 

[Kenilworth]

Someone said that Birmingham murdered us on Wednesday and I pointed out they didn't. Yes they deserved to win but most of their chances were down to us giving the ball away cheaply.

So they walloped us by pressuring us into making mistakes?
They had some silly number of touches in our box and we only had one in theirs and no shots on target other than Hamer’s outrageous, genius, goal.

If their finishing had been half decent it would have been a reyt thumping.

 

[Kenilworth]

Jan Age explained it brilliantly, our forward press is loose and uncoordinated. It's too easy at times to play through, they're then too slow or too unwilling to retrieve the situation so we always look outnumbered.
The fullbacks play high so when we lose the ball, the opposition can play easy channel balls into the spaces left behind to put us on the back foot. The defensive cover to combat this is absent or ineffective.
We don't mix up our tactics to keep the opposition guessing, they know exactly what we do and set traps.
The players aren't fit enough to play this way for 90mins. Even if they were, they couldn't maintain it for 46 games.
There's not enough height in the team or enough fight for that matter.
The players don't look bothered, which is inexcusable really and we've not even played against a good side yet.

Exactly.
And that’s down to the manager picking the tactics and shoe horning players into it.
Seemed to be ok when playing Chezzy, York, Rovrum
I thought Burton outdid us easily on many occasions.
It’s different in the Championship because they are better teams with better managers and a better standard of opposition that will punish you for being off it.

 

[The Fox]

A while ago I was listening Dean Saunders on talksport. To paraphrase what he said ....

This "high press" thing isn't new , its what we used to call " closing down" , your simply asking a professional athlete to sprint for 20 yards , if they have to coached to do this then games gone .


Realise its a simplification but there's some truth in that to ge fair ..

 

[Bergen Blade]

To play how Selles wants to play the players need to be peak fitness.

From what I know he likes to work a high press trying to win the ball back as close to the final third as possible and then killing teams in transition a bit like the first 45 mins v Bristol.

He also likes to play more direct from the back to get the ball in the final third quickly when in possession.

This is stark contrast to wilderball.. slow , measured build up , side ways, backwards passing trying to create the perfect chance and the players still couldn’t manage 90 minutes playing that style,

Selles style of pressing high up the pitch leaves loads of space in behind should the opposite team break the press. This is fine if you have players with the willingness and capacity to get back and retrieve the ball.

Then assuming they do there’s no respite they are then expected to quickly turn defence in to attack.

If we have the energy levels to hunt the ball down constantly and the brains to play quick one touch football it will be glorious to watch.

Unfortunately we have very few players with both .., Hamer will struggle from a purely fitness point of view, JR is a 90s defender, Campbell will struggle.

The one player I expect of suit is COH.

He needs backing with 5 players he chooses and then see where we are at.

When...

• the press is half hearted
• parts of our team are just not able to run and chase as required
• the team lacks the discipline and organisation

... it gets difficult.

A bit before Swansea scored yesterday we were starting to look tired and unorganised. There were huge distances between our players and between our lines. This was one attack where they just play through us with ease, starting with a poor high press from Cannon and Hamer, miles ahead of our midfielders:


Their keeper has a number of passing options. He gives it to the left sided centre half...

... who easily finds their unmarked holding midfielder. He can turn, look up and pass it forward..



...to another midfielder who can also turn and run...


... before playing it wide to their right back bombing forward:


When we don't get it right from the start of their attack, it gets more difficult to stop them later as well.

The highlights show a few occasions before they scored where we can be seen chasing after them and our defence rushing back, facing their own goal.



Selles had to do something to address our problems against Bristol City's counter attacking. But in doing so we seemed to also lose our high press, and other issues appeared, both offensively and defensively.