Retained list tomorrow

[LondonBlade89]

I'm ready to give in, log out and let the hate flow, so we'll have it all one way soon enough.

Saying he's league 1 standard isn't ridiculous, but pointing out that despite the narrative that he's a hot-headed, ill-disciplined thug, he's not been sent off, is ridiculous. Has he ever been sent off for us?

The point the person was making was true though about Robinson’s discipline. I don’t think anyone was even making a point about red cards really. More in how he leads the team (and picks up yellow, yes). The “yeah but what about” argument back just felt a bit forced. I actually think generally you’ve made good point but it was one of those where you take one side so strongly you lose sight a bit. Or at least that’s how it felt to me!

FWIW I do actually think Jack Robinson is League One standard. We will disagree on that I know. But I feel strongly that if he ends up at another Championship club after us and is regularly starting games then fans will have similar debates.

 

[Swinton Blade]

I don't dislike robbo but at the end of the day he was bench warming in the championship when we got him, he shouldn't be starting never mind being captain

Don't think he was a bench warmer when he left Forest.

 

[gordoncharles]

Didn't think so

There are players all over, including those available on loan from PL clubs, those in L1, and in other leagues throughout Europe.

As just one example there is Thomas van den Belt of Feyenoord who has been on loan in Spain this season, but I could name a dozen midfielders in Spain's 2nd Division alone who would be good enough to start for us.

And I'm not even charged with having to know about these things.

 

[Stanthemanfan]

Don't think he was a bench warmer when he left Forest.

56 apperences in 4 years would suggest otherwise

 

[dexter101]

I think this summer is where we find out what our new owners are really like.

Personally, I like the squad we have assembled through a crappy summer window last year where no one really knew what was going on and we had a Huge clear out and then had to sell to buy. Some buys were driven by lack of clear big picture, some have been really good.

The Jan window is always crap and even then, it was probably a surprise for all of us (be honest) where we were.

We paid too much for Cannon as it stands but... he has shown he can score at championship level, he's 22 and needs a summer to sort his head out.

This summer is a window where we either have it made clear we just plan on being a above average championship side, or we have serious intentions on the Premier league.

All 3 sides going up this year are likely to come straight back down, so I reckon to stay up, you have to have a season in championship where you literally demolish everything in sight, with a side ready for PL.

If we change manager, I think this makes the challenge bigger.

As rubbish as the end of the season has been, I am still excited as this squad is still at the start of a journey. It just needs some smart additions with a 2 year plan for promotion then staying up... if that's what they want to commit to.

 

[Frank the tank]

There are players all over, including those available on loan from PL clubs, those in L1, and in other leagues throughout Europe.

As just one example there is Thomas van den Belt of Feyenoord who has been on loan in Spain this season, but I could name a dozen midfielders in Spain's 2nd Division alone who would be good enough to start for us.

And I'm not even charged with having to know about these things.

Thank fuck for that !

 

[BigBed]

Where is the cost benefit of doing this?

I see people throw around the proposal of releasing this player or another who are under contract, and unless the player is willing to take less than they are owed, which is unlikely unless they're in a final year, I don't understand why it would even be considered.

It isn't a cost benefit, neither is keeping him if he has no value. Eather way we have to pay him unfortunately, and whether he sits in the stand or on his sofa, he is not an asset to the club.
If we can loan him out, then maybe parts of his wage will be covered, but probably only a percentage, if we can sell him great, but can't see it happening, it's like trying to sell a farmer a fiat 500 to use to plough his fields!
Cutting your loses and making space for another player, sometimes is the best way.

 

[BigBed]

Why would we release when we can get loan fees for him?

May be the case with several others too.

IF we can get loan fees..... did we get a loan fee last season?? Did the team he was loaned to cover more than 25% of his wage??
Might be worth looking into.....

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I like the kid bit if hasn’t worked here for him .. time to move on

That's fine, everyone can have their own opinion.
The suggestion that there are better cheaper options for us are nonsense, and as I say, he'll make the choice anyway as he'll be bigger contracts on the table than we'll put forward.

 

[mattbianco1]

For me Robinson isn't the big issue, it's Robinson with Anel as a pairing. They are completely unsuited together. Put a dominant centre back next to either and they'd look better as we saw when Souttar played next to them.

Robinsons inability to play out from the back is his main shortfall overall though. He had the most touches on the pitch at Wembley as he often does in other games we lose. Teams are happy with him having the ball because they know they'll likely have it back a few seconds later.

We don't lose to Oxford, Plymouth or Millwall with Anel/Holding as the 2 CBs.

Not saying Robinson was at fault for all goals conceded (although he was at Plymouth), but the whole defence looked more solid with Souttar or Holding there

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

It isn't a cost benefit, neither is keeping him if he has no value. Eather way we have to pay him unfortunately, and whether he sits in the stand or on his sofa, he is not an asset to the club.
If we can loan him out, then maybe parts of his wage will be covered, but probably only a percentage, if we can sell him great, but can't see it happening, it's like trying to sell a farmer a fiat 500 to use to plough his fields!
Cutting your loses and making space for another player, sometimes is the best way.

He's not taking up any space though so I'm not following your logic to "pay him up".
If you do that you will not get anything against part of his wages and you can't sell him.

He won't be in the squad, so where is the benefit to just paying up his contract to leave?

 

[Keen Blade]

On all available evidence, and without comment from CW himself, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Holding was benched to allow JLT to notch up enough games to trigger an extension

Holding deserved opportunities to show what he could bring and help us over the line.

Brewster - it's absolutely no surprise that we're in discussion on a new contract. He's here until Wilder isn't

Oddly enough, I'm genuinely chuffed we lost out. The early indicators are that nothing has changed in terms of effective decision making to take us forward.

The farcical Wilder/Robinson (not Holding)/Brewster axis ,
which is infecting my club with 'no progress' ,
looks more like corruption with each passing day.

FFS , our owners are supposed to be big businessmen !
Are they actually so naive that a couple of scrapping scallies like Wilder & Robinson can pull a fast one and then pull the wool over their eyes ?

The owners should put Wilder in his place by buying out Robinson's option or paying his extended contract off and getting him out of the door.

If they let Wilder carry on like this they are falling into exactly the same trap that the Prince did .. and warned them to avoid.

 

[Swinton Blade]

56 apperences in 4 years would suggest otherwise
View attachment 212174

He was only at forest for 18 months before we signed him.

 

[mattbianco1]

That’s fair cop. I suppose the point I was trying to get at was that a lot of people have very valid criticisms of Robinson, which doesn’t involve personal hatred in the slightest. And I don’t think any criticism should = hatred of him and therefore be dismissed as such. But I totally get your point and think that’s fair that among some it does spill over into hatred.

I would liken Robinson to Michael Doyle and Nick Montgomery.

All gave 110% every game, all very combative, but also, all very limited in their overall skillset.
Doyle and Montgomery got away with it more as they were in midfield, so any mistakes had a better chance of being dealt with. When Robinson makes a mistake, it's usually in extremely costly areas of the pitch which lead to a good chance and sometimes a goal...

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[TJ blade]

Name one then smart arse. ?

He was allegedly brought in as a striker! Which hasn't t worked! If we are to improve we need better!....utd fuck him off!

 

[BigBed]

He's not taking up any space though so I'm not following your logic to "pay him up".
If you do that you will not get anything against part of his wages and you can't sell him.

He won't be in the squad, so where is the benefit to just paying up his contract to leave?

Wheres the benefit of him being here?
We just realised 4 young players 1 of which was a better keeper than Grbic, it only takes 1 injury and he begins to cost more, I understand your logic, but it isn't your money, we need to clear the dead wood, or cardboard in Grbics case.

 

[Frank the tank]

He was allegedly brought in as a striker! Which hasn't t worked! If we are to improve we need better!....utd fuck him off!

And he's played half a season in a different role and done well enough to earn a new deal

He's a good squad player
Can't say I'm fussed if he stays or goes to be honest much like any of them including the manager

 

[jt64]

Where is the cost benefit of doing this?

I see people throw around the proposal of releasing this player or another who are under contract, and unless the player is willing to take less than they are owed, which is unlikely unless they're in a final year, I don't understand why it would even be considered.

If the lump sum is regarded as similar to a voluntary redundancy payment, as opposed to ongoing wages, presumably SUFC cease to be liable to ongoing NI payments for the player as we would do if he remains under contract. But yep, absolutely with you in that it's fucking insanity to ever consider it unless the player agrees to a big percentage cut of what is owed, which unless their agent already has a new gig lined up that works out better for them, they never will do.

 

[loyalblade95]

I think this summer is where we find out what our new owners are really like.

Personally, I like the squad we have assembled through a crappy summer window last year where no one really knew what was going on and we had a Huge clear out and then had to sell to buy. Some buys were driven by lack of clear big picture, some have been really good.

The Jan window is always crap and even then, it was probably a surprise for all of us (be honest) where we were.

We paid too much for Cannon as it stands but... he has shown he can score at championship level, he's 22 and needs a summer to sort his head out.

This summer is a window where we either have it made clear we just plan on being a above average championship side, or we have serious intentions on the Premier league.

All 3 sides going up this year are likely to come straight back down, so I reckon to stay up, you have to have a season in championship where you literally demolish everything in sight, with a side ready for PL.

If we change manager, I think this makes the challenge bigger.

As rubbish as the end of the season has been, I am still excited as this squad is still at the start of a journey. It just needs some smart additions with a 2 year plan for promotion then staying up... if that's what they want to commit to.

Got a big summer ahead, especially figuring out how we are going to approach next season, formation and tactics wise.

Given how we've used it towards the end of the season and the playoffs, I wouldn't mind us sticking with 4-4-2 as it gets the best out of our strikers, but that means O'Hare misses out, which a few people pointed out to me.

Got this from Jimmy Ramble's stream last night, but would this group of players be more suited to a 3-4-1-2, rather than a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1?

1) it would do away with wingers which we are short on at the moment.
2) we would need to sign quite a few CB's, and while I am not advocating that Robbo should start, he does play better in a 3 rather than a 2
3) Burrows and Seriki as WB's, a role which suits both of them
4) we can play 2 up top (which suits our strikers) and still play O'Hare in his best position.

Players we'd need to sign for the formation:

• CB x 3/4 (depending on Anel situation)
• RB/RWB x 1
• CDM x 1 (even if Souza stays, I'd still sign a CDM as backup at least)
• CAM x 1 (backup/competition for O'Hare)

Total players = 6/7 + any other signings

 

[Balham]

56 apperences in 4 years would suggest otherwise
View attachment 212174

4 years? He was at the TSCs from July 2018 to January 2020. First season he made 36/46 appearances, starting on the bench for the first 4 then playing 36 of the remaining 42 matches. The following season he played in 16/21.

 

[Jan Age]

agree with you there but our manager seems not to know holding was probably a bit rusty but wilder still kept robinson in unforgiveable imo and cost us promotion he can definetly only be back up centre back next season we wouldnt have to look far to find better

Agreed I just do think it’s the tragedy everyone is making it out to be that he’s staying …. IF we sign better and IF he is a sub next season

 

[Wards]

IF we can get loan fees..... did we get a loan fee last season?? Did the team he was loaned to cover more than 25% of his wage??
Might be worth looking into.....

Yes, of course we will have done. I'd be surprised if they didn't cover most of, if not all, of his wage.

 

[Railway Blade]

The farcical Wilder/Robinson (not Holding)/Brewster axis ,
which is infecting my club with 'no progress' ,
looks more like corruption with each passing day.

Really ?

I'm not Robinsons biggest fan and I would certainly be looking for someone better but.
Wilder wasn't even here when he signed his new contract in July 23 with the one year option.
Do we know how many games triggers the extension ? because he had featured in 18 games before Holding walked through the door.
At the point Holding came in he hadn't played a competitive game since Sept 23 so he was hardly going to start.

I get that people are frustrated we are keeping Robbo but to blame it on Wilder or worse corruption is a lot of a stretch.

 

[ISZA ⚔️]

Don't think he was a bench warmer when he left Forest.

He wasn’t a CB either.

 

[54yrblade]

Really ?

I'm not Robinsons biggest fan and I would certainly be looking for someone better but.
Wilder wasn't even here when he signed his new contract in July 23 with the one year option.
Do we know how many games triggers the extension ? because he had featured in 18 games before Holding walked through the door.
At the point Holding came in he hadn't played a competitive game since Sept 23 so he was hardly going to start.

I get that people are frustrated we are keeping Robbo but to blame it on Wilder or worse corruption is a lot of a stretch.

But Wilder was repairing his relationship with the owner long before Hecky was sacked.

He had influence with the Prince. They need each other in equal measure.

 

[coolasanidiot]

The whole Holding thing is quite crazy - without playing he's gathered a status without any proof. The cameos he had , he was OK but certainly no 'Souttar'.

Robinson isn't total shit- he's just bang average- If Wilder and Knilly thought Holding was 'the answer' they would have played him. They see them training every day -

simple as - Holding wasn't ready to taker over Robinson - he was only back up if Anel or Robbo got injured.

Saying all that priority number 1 is replacing Robbo - so that he can be what he is meant to be - BACK UP.

 

[Railway Blade]

But Wilder was repairing his relationship with the owner long before Hecky was sacked.

He had influence with the Prince. They need each other in equal measure.

If you think Wilder had a hand in Robinsons new contract in July 23 when Hecky was just about to start our premier league campaign then I will leave it.

 

[BigBed]

Yes, of course we will have done. I'd be surprised if they didn't cover most of, if not all, of his wage.

But can you say we definitely did, and that more than 25% of his wages were definitely covered??
If you can, then fair enough.....

 

[programmechap]

If the lump sum is regarded as similar to a voluntary redundancy payment, as opposed to ongoing wages, presumably SUFC cease to be liable to ongoing NI payments for the player as we would do if he remains under contract. But yep, absolutely with you in that it's fucking insanity to ever consider it unless the player agrees to a big percentage cut of what is owed, which unless their agent already has a new gig lined up that works out better for them, they never will do.

When being paid off, you only get a percentage of your full contractual entitlement because you're getting it as a lump sum at one go you can invest rather than over a period of time in dribs and drabs

So it can suit both parties to agree a pay off of, say, a 3 year contract at 60% of its value.

 

[Tickhill Blade]

When being paid off, you only get a percentage of your full contractual entitlement because you're getting it as a lump sum at one go you can invest rather than over a period of time in dribs and drabs

So it can suit both parties to agree a pay off of, say, a 3 year contract at 60% of its value.

And the player is free to earn elsewhere in the meantime. So they may be better off overall, with a % of what they are due, and a new salary elsewhere with more playing time for instance.

The NI is a moot point I think. Only the first £30k of any settlement agreement is tax free for the recipient, and similarly the employer pays NI on anything over the £30k. Which is a couple of days wages for some footballers