Stadium Development

[YES Blade]

Disagree, think there should be choice regards admission prices.

We should always strive to have an area (Kop) where prices are affordable but the facilities are basic, that’s means removing the pillars and having kiosks, toilets and bars under cover protected from the wind and rain.

Then we need better but more expensive faculties in the South stand at slightly higher cost. Then we also need to cater for our rich fans who don’t mind spending £80 a ticket in fancy executive seats.

Think McCabes cheap Kop bolt on plan provided almost everything, an extra 3,200 seats at the back of the Kop, no pilars with a fully enclosed concourse under cover for a relatively cheap cost so prices could remain affordable.

The new South stand plan was giving us an extra 6K seats taking our capacity to over 41K. The thinking behind the South stand expansion wasn’t so much to increase capacity, it was to improve the face of the club regards having a private underground car park, larger club shop, larger ticket office, larger improved changing rooms, better media rooms/ facilities, chairman’s boardroom and massively increasing and improvong executive VIP areas.

All this would be done behind the current stands taking just 1 season and 2 Summers to complete, with both the Kop and South still open on math days whilst building work takes place.

The only other cost effective option is to sell both Bramall Lane and Hillsboro and build a new 50K stadium somewhere off Parkway but I’d prefer is to remain at BL.

Based on current prices, the difference in a Kop and South Stand ticket isn’t very much, so adding another £3k to the Kop doesn’t help keep prices affordable. It’s just adding more seats that are slightly cheaper than other areas.

 

[Digs blade]

What about "pissgate"?

One alleged incident around 7-8 years ago.

That’s my point mate. If that is the reason why front rows are blocked off this season then I don’t know about pissgate but someone is taking this piss out of us

 

[The Fox]

A little known fact about Bramall Lane from a Sun article today .

Sheffield is even home to the oldest football stadium in the world.
Sandygate in Bramall Lane, home to Hallam FC and Hallam CC, opened its doors in 1804 – gaining the title in the Guinness Book of Records as the Oldest Football Ground in the World.

 

[Keen Blade]

When the BLUT corner was finished out capacity was 32,609.
The modern all seater record is 32,604, which was the official attendance against Wigan in 2007.

When we returned to the PL in 2020, PL rules meant we had to increase the press box area losing seats in the south stand
We also took out seats for a disabled area, bringing our capacity down to 32,050.
That season our highest attendance was a sell out against Man Utd of 32,024.

Last season in the Premier league official handbook each club has to provide it's current stadium capacity
and for Sheff Utd it gave the official capacity as just over 31,700, so another decrease from the 32K.
Last season our highest attendance was 31,543 against Man Utd, which apparently was another official sell out.

It wouldn't surprise me if our capacity was currently 31K, then when they are sold we can apply to SAG for extra seats to be released.
When they are sold we can ask SAG to release further seats. So basically get near the 31.7K figure we need to sell out well before the match
to give SAG time to have their meeting and consider our request.

There's a block of about 400 in John Street near the away fans which is presumably never for sale - be interesting to see if it's empty v pigs which is officially sold out.

 

[JJBlade]

There's a block of about 400 in John Street near the away fans which is presumably never for sale - be interesting to see if it's empty v pigs which is officially sold out.

No it'll be a block of about 1,400 plus another block in the South Stand H Section which will be empty, plus the first five rows of Bramall Lane Upper Tier empty type of sell out. It'll be one of our lowest attendances of the season because of SYP and the Health and Safety tossers

 

[HD8 Blades]

No it'll be a block of about 1,400 plus another block in the South Stand H Section which will be empty, plus the first five rows of Bramall Lane Upper Tier empty type of sell out. It'll be one of our lowest attendances of the season because of SYP and the Health and Safety tossers

You see Manc derbies with a line of stewards and 5 feet between fans. We have to go way overboard

 

[Keen Blade]

One aspect of the great ground debate which is rarely ventilated is how any expansion or improvement would be financed.
In the absence of a wealthy sugar daddy , the funds would need to be borrowed.
Do people realise that the club is already servicing bank borrowings of £50m which roughly equates to the book value of its fixed assets (ground , hotel , training ground etc) which it had to buy from McCabe ?
As such , it is highly unlikely that the club would be able to borrow the money to fund any significant work , even as small as removing the kop posts + cantilevering the roof.
Talk of investment in the ground is pie in the sky without a settled period in the PL where profits might occur.
"Build it and they will come" is an irrelevant notion when there is no money to build.
Quite rightly , the club appears to have used some of the 23/24 PL income to invest in land at Dore for a new training ground , although it is presumably a lack of cashflow which has meant no ground has been broken yet.
If we don't get promotion before the parachutes run out , I guess it will take some years to install the pitches + construct the buildings.
I have sat on the kop since 1992 and would love it to have a steeper rake & more comfortable seat but it is not going to happen in my lifetime.
There is no prospect of the money to do it and even if there were , there is no business case.
This will not change under any type of commercial ownership.
As to capacity , it is a kind of Catch 22 situation.
Whilst out of the PL , there will never be the money.
When in the PL , there might be the odd £10m profit here & there , but the TV income makes the matchday income quite insignificant , so the need to pay appropriate wages to stay in the PL trumps any idea of spending on the ground.
So don't forget we already owe the bank £50m and stop dreaming of a bigger better ground.
Think Bournemouth & Brentford - that's football these days - PL clubs with tiny grounds but huge TV income

 

[Weasel]

One aspect of the great ground debate which is rarely ventilated is how any expansion or improvement would be financed.
In the absence of a wealthy sugar daddy , the funds would need to be borrowed.
Do people realise that the club is already servicing bank borrowings of £50m which roughly equates to the book value of its fixed assets (ground , hotel , training ground etc) which it had to buy from McCabe ?
As such , it is highly unlikely that the club would be able to borrow the money to fund any significant work , even as small as removing the kop posts + cantilevering the roof.
Talk of investment in the ground is pie in the sky without a settled period in the PL where profits might occur.
"Build it and they will come" is an irrelevant notion when there is no money to build.
Quite rightly , the club appears to have used some of the 23/24 PL income to invest in land at Dore for a new training ground , although it is presumably a lack of cashflow which has meant no ground has been broken yet.
If we don't get promotion before the parachutes run out , I guess it will take some years to install the pitches + construct the buildings.
I have sat on the kop since 1992 and would love it to have a steeper rake & more comfortable seat but it is not going to happen in my lifetime.
There is no prospect of the money to do it and even if there were , there is no business case.
This will not change under any type of commercial ownership.
As to capacity , it is a kind of Catch 22 situation.
Whilst out of the PL , there will never be the money.
When in the PL , there might be the odd £10m profit here & there , but the TV income makes the matchday income quite insignificant , so the need to pay appropriate wages to stay in the PL trumps any idea of spending on the ground.
So don't forget we already owe the bank £50m and stop dreaming of a bigger better ground.
Think Bournemouth & Brentford - that's football these days - PL clubs with tiny grounds but huge TV income

Genuine question. Do we owe the Bank £50m plus? Is this in thr latest accounts (I've no idea as I tend to concentrate on the football side of things rather than the accounts as they generally bore me senseless).

 

[Keen Blade]

Genuine question. Do we owe the Bank £50m plus? Is this in thr latest accounts (I've no idea as I tend to concentrate on the football side of things rather than the accounts as they generally bore me senseless).

I am not the Premier League for corporate accountancy like those such as Sean Thornton , but from my own amateur research at Co.s House :

1. Our latest submitted accounts are those for the year ended 30 June 23 (let's call them the 23 accounts) , which were signed off in January 24.

2. The next set (y/e 30 June 24 - the 24 accounts) are presumably due out in January 25.

3. Recent history - we were in the Championship in 21/22 & 22/23 so , not surprisingly , the 22 accounts show a loss of £15m and the 23 accounts a loss of £30m.
Those huge losses must have been covered by the Prince , by perhaps two means - a Director's Loan to the club and further equity investment into newly issued shares.
This in addition to all the losses he's covered since 2013.

4. Borrowings - the latest available balance sheet (June 23) shows outstanding bank loan of £52m and outstanding loan from the Prince of £28m , so we are a total £80m in debt.

5. PL season 23/24 - we will have to wait until the New Year to discover the actual effect of PL income on the 24 accounts but obviously we had a huge increase in TV income and (at a guess) a doubling in total income from c£60m to c£120m.

6. But of course those pesky PL wages will have hugely increased our costs , probably by £30m.
Crudely speculating , I think we might have been (£60m minus £30m) = a net £30m better off in 23/24. But remember this could be a wildly inaccurate guess by me.

7. If I was the Prince , wanting to sell the club , and worried about whether I would ever recoup my £28m Director's Loan , the first thing i would do with any "spare" cash in 23/24 would be to repay my Director's Loan to myself.
But I don't think we'll find the Prince has done that - especially as we have bought not only the 2 parcels of McCabe land behind the kop but also the land at Dore for the future Training Complex.
I think we'll find he may have repaid himself some of the £28m but certainly not all of it.

8. All of the above leads me to conclude that we cannot possibly have repaid any significant part of the £52m bank loan during 23/24 ...
so I fully expect the June 24 balance sheet to show c£50m bank loan outstanding.
And since we are yet again a loss-making Championship club , that £50m debt will still be there now.
And the Prince himself will have to cover those coming losses.
Look at what happened at the end of the summer window for evidence of how skint we are again.
There can't be many businesses whose turnover can double or halve from one year to the next - running a yoyo club must be a nightmare.
And the rollercoaster ride hasn't finished yet , coz if we don't get to the PL by summer 26 , turnover drops from c£60m to c£15m - try and manage that 75% reduction by a bit of costcutting !
Our turnover could be £15m or it might be £150m - that's a stark contrast.

Please recognise that I am doing my inexpert best to produce a realistic snapshot - my figures are ballpark.

There are others on here who may well have a more accurate grip - and if Sean or similar talents can see substantial errors or misleading mistakes , I would be only too happy to stand corrected.

There's no desire to be a prophet of doom - I just want to curb what might be unrealistic expectations in terms of the stadium , unrealistic even if new owners arrive.

 

[Keen Blade]

No it'll be a block of about 1,400 plus another block in the South Stand H Section which will be empty, plus the first five rows of Bramall Lane Upper Tier empty type of sell out. It'll be one of our lowest attendances of the season because of SYP and the Health and Safety tossers

I know you exaggerate for effect but your point is good - it will be very interesting to see where the unsaleable seats are and the actual size of what is stated on the website to be a sellout crowd - I'm going for 31,075.

 

[reedy63]

Why are the front rows and more of Bramall Lane upper need to be empty. All the stewards stand at the front and sould be able to see anything. plus more empty seats in the other stands. I guess just over 30k in attendance. so 2K not sold. Health and safety the officials will tell you. It seems every season the ground capacity is getting lower.

 

[S64 Blade]

Why are the front rows and more of Bramall Lane upper need to be empty. All the stewards stand at the front and sould be able to see anything. plus more empty seats in the other stands. I guess just over 30k in attendance. so 2K not sold. Health and safety the officials will tell you. It seems every season the ground capacity is getting lower.

People need to find ways to justify their roles and power.

 

[Weasel]

I am not the Premier League for corporate accountancy like those such as Sean Thornton , but from my own amateur research at Co.s House :

1. Our latest submitted accounts are those for the year ended 30 June 23 (let's call them the 23 accounts) , which were signed off in January 24.

2. The next set (y/e 30 June 24 - the 24 accounts) are presumably due out in January 25.

3. Recent history - we were in the Championship in 21/22 & 22/23 so , not surprisingly , the 22 accounts show a loss of £15m and the 23 accounts a loss of £30m.
Those huge losses must have been covered by the Prince , by perhaps two means - a Director's Loan to the club and further equity investment into newly issued shares.
This in addition to all the losses he's covered since 2013.

4. Borrowings - the latest available balance sheet (June 23) shows outstanding bank loan of £52m and outstanding loan from the Prince of £28m , so we are a total £80m in debt.

5. PL season 23/24 - we will have to wait until the New Year to discover the actual effect of PL income on the 24 accounts but obviously we had a huge increase in TV income and (at a guess) a doubling in total income from c£60m to c£120m.

6. But of course those pesky PL wages will have hugely increased our costs , probably by £30m.
Crudely speculating , I think we might have been (£60m minus £30m) = a net £30m better off in 23/24. But remember this could be a wildly inaccurate guess by me.

7. If I was the Prince , wanting to sell the club , and worried about whether I would ever recoup my £28m Director's Loan , the first thing i would do with any "spare" cash in 23/24 would be to repay my Director's Loan to myself.
But I don't think we'll find the Prince has done that - especially as we have bought not only the 2 parcels of McCabe land behind the kop but also the land at Dore for the future Training Complex.
I think we'll find he may have repaid himself some of the £28m but certainly not all of it.

8. All of the above leads me to conclude that we cannot possibly have repaid any significant part of the £52m bank loan during 23/24 ...
so I fully expect the June 24 balance sheet to show c£50m bank loan outstanding.
And since we are yet again a loss-making Championship club , that £50m debt will still be there now.
And the Prince himself will have to cover those coming losses.
Look at what happened at the end of the summer window for evidence of how skint we are again.
There can't be many businesses whose turnover can double or halve from one year to the next - running a yoyo club must be a nightmare.
And the rollercoaster ride hasn't finished yet , coz if we don't get to the PL by summer 26 , turnover drops from c£60m to c£15m - try and manage that 75% reduction by a bit of costcutting !
Our turnover could be £15m or it might be £150m - that's a stark contrast.

Please recognise that I am doing my inexpert best to produce a realistic snapshot - my figures are ballpark.

There are others on here who may well have a more accurate grip - and if Sean or similar talents can see substantial errors or misleading mistakes , I would be only too happy to stand corrected.

There's no desire to be a prophet of doom - I just want to curb what might be unrealistic expectations in terms of the stadium , unrealistic even if new owners arrive.

All well thought out with seemingly logical assumptions, is my take on that. Was interesting to read through it and it has given me a clearer picture of SUFC financial standings.

For my own part, I do find the Utd accounts interesting (most accounting speak I dont and i usually switch off from it) but it's easy for the clear picture to be lost as everyone and their Grandad often want to have their say and things start getting a slanted perspective or lost in translation. It was good to see it broken down into a simple take on where we are (as at 30 June 23) and where we could well be now off the back of those 23 accounts. We also need to add in probable outgoings on the hotel.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. It's appreciated.

 

[Charlieblade]

If the 24/25 rebuild was financed by player sales, it’s no surprise the rebuild is only half done.

I stand by my pre season prediction of a mid table finish. Despite the good start, there will nbe more money needed to finish the season in the black, finance wise.

Another year in the championship will have implications for the club, unless someone with more money than sense buys us!

 

[reedy63]

S65 Blade. I have no idea what you are referring to with your comment. can you explain further.

 

[Sheffsteel]

S65 Blade. I have no idea what you are referring to with your comment. can you explain further.

The council run Safety Action Group have regular meetings about our ground and what the working capacity should be for each and every match.

Not sure if it's true but I heard a rumour that in case of a disaster then every stand be able to be evacuated within a certain number of minutes.
I understand that the concours areas and staircases on the BLUT are too small to enable that to happen, when at full capacity.
However we did put in an additional staircase on the BLUT near the John Street stand.

As S65 said I think SAG make it up as they go along to try to justify their jobs and to make themselves look all powerful and important.

 

[reedy63]

Yes that is what I was told in the ticket office when I bought tickets for the wendy match. I asked the question so you are spot on. The police and Sheffield Council advice.So when you think about it very Hard to argue against it .As they say Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

If the 24/25 rebuild was financed by player sales, it’s no surprise the rebuild is only half done.

I stand by my pre season prediction of a mid table finish. Despite the good start, there will nbe more money needed to finish the season in the black, finance wise.

Another year in the championship will have implications for the club, unless someone with more money than sense buys us!

We aren't finishing mid table.. have you seen the standard of the Championship? I'd say only Leeds are better than us.

 

[Charlieblade]

We aren't finishing mid table.. have you seen the standard of the Championship? I'd say only Leeds are better than us.

I agree the opposition is inconsistent, but mostly poor this season. It might explain Sunderlands current position, but not ours. IMHO of course. Early days.

 

[Westran]

The council run Safety Action Group have regular meetings about our ground and what the working capacity should be for each and every match.

Not sure if it's true but I heard a rumour that in case of a disaster then every stand be able to be evacuated within a certain number of minutes.
I understand that the concours areas and staircases on the BLUT are too small to enable that to happen, when at full capacity.
However we did put in an additional staircase on the BLUT near the John Street stand.

As S65 said I think SAG make it up as they go along to try to justify their jobs and to make themselves look all powerful and important.

They don't make it up, they follow legislation and national guidance. And the SAG isn't Council run, it's multi-agency.

There's a specific guidance document called 'The Green Guide', which is a guide to safety at sports grounds and the guidance set out within it is often a condition of licencing.

It's healthy and safety, counter terrorism, you might not like it, but I personally like to be able to go to football games without the fear of another Hillsborough disaster or Manchester bombing.

It's a bit of a cliched trope to blame the council for being jobsworths.

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

31.1k (sell out) for the derby so around 900 empty seats not allowed to be sold.

I was actually surprised more seats weren't closed off. Upper tier front rows, SS lower section and JS lower section (near away fans) seemed pretty full with no segregation.

 

[Sheffsteel]

31.1k (sell out) for the derby so around 900 empty seats not allowed to be sold.

I was actually surprised more seats weren't closed off. Upper tier front rows, SS lower section and JS lower section (near away fans) seemed pretty full with no segregation.

Agree I was surprised it exceeded 31K.
In the 2022/23 Premier League handbook, just last season, SUFC gave their official stadium capacity as 31,705,
however that season our biggest attendance was when we played Man United, which was sold out well in advance, it ended up being 31,543.

Sheff Wed were only given 2,417 tickets instead of the usual max allocation of 2,720 that we gave Stoke, Derby and also Sunderland.
Looks like the front 2 rows of the away end were closed off, this is obviously to deter pitch invasions.

The gate on Sunday was 31,127, so with a normal away allocation to SW, the gate would have been 31,430, which is pretty close to the max.

 

[reedy63]

Apart from the front row on Bramall Lane upper it looked packet on The Kop on Capacity under 32k. If this gets lower every season cant be good for future fans.

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

Agree I was surprised it exceeded 31K.
In the 2022/23 Premier League handbook, just last season, SUFC gave their official stadium capacity as 31,705,
however that season our biggest attendance was when we played Man United, which was sold out well in advance, it ended up being 31,543.

Sheff Wed were only given 2,417 tickets instead of the usual max allocation of 2,720 that we gave Stoke, Derby and also Sunderland.
Looks like the front 2 rows of the away end were closed off, this is obviously to deter pitch invasions.

The gate on Sunday was 31,127, so with a normal away allocation to SW, the gate would have been 31,430, which is pretty close to the max.

Yeah that makes sense, it seems alot that there's nearly 1k seats empty! Looked full.

 

[YES Blade]

Apart from the front row on Bramall Lane upper it looked packet on The Kop on Capacity under 32k. If this gets lower every season cant be good for future fans.

It was stupidly busy on the Kop Sunday, I went in via the turnstiles nearest to the South Stand and it took me about 15-20 minutes to go for a piss and get to my seat.

I dread to think what it would be like trying to get out during an emergency. I really wouldn’t be surprised if over the next few years the amount of tickets we are allowed to sell gets reduced on safety grounds.

 

[Teofilo Cubillas]

Not sure if it's true but I heard a rumour that in case of a disaster then every stand be able to be evacuated within a certain number of minutes.
I understand that the concours areas and staircases on the BLUT are too small to enable that to happen, when at full capacity.

As I understand it,
IF, and it is a big IF, there is only a single opportunity to redevelop BDTBL, then there are two options.
The first is the one of McCabe, which consists of building-up the South Stand and the Kop. 100% absolute pragmatism.
We have all seen the plans.
The problem with this option is that the Bramall Lane end remains as it is. And forever and ever. Is that sustainable?
Probably not.
It is probable that it still needs to be rebuilt sometime in the future.

A second option can be far more ambitious.
There is so much land wastage behind the South Stand.
How can so much space be used as a car park! It doesn't add-up.

It is only when: the pitch is turned around, the Cricket Pavilion rebuilt as a statement of the sporting heritage of Bramall Lane, and the absurdity of the hotel knocked-down that Bramall Lane can be redeveloped properly.

Of course it will cost a fortune, but consider... proper bogs, beer and bovril, proper escape routes when being hammered in the Premiership, a proper fanzone that is heated and has comfy seats and is not situated in a disused corner of the ground.
It is not about building a Crisp Bowl... any development of BDTBL has to consider the heritage. The Kop should still be the Kop, only just a bit longer (as it was originally built).

It is all about costing. But if in the Premiership, and if we are able to establish ourselves as Villa or even Fulham have recently done, then it can be economically possible to have a 45,000+ stadium/venue.

It is for certain that the new owners have been examining the potential of Bramall Lane.
Is that why there has been questions over the value of the hotel... or is it because they want to redevelop it as a seven star cancer hospital?

 

[metalblade]

If it was me I would move the kop back towards Shoreham st in a new build along with the pitch. This would allow you to make the pitch a few yards longer to UEFA standards and also give you more space at the Bramall lane end to rebuild the lower tier into the upper tier in other words making one tier at the Bramall lane end. This then makes segregation much easier with away fans top to bottom with a split top to bottom, no home fans above the away fans which just encourages object to be thrown from above. No seats would be lost at that end and you could have one large concourse rather than two cramped ones.
If the kop was built to the same rake as the South stand and John St then you could fill the corners in seamlessly giving you even more useable seats.

 

[JayGreen17]

I think the match on Sunday clearly shows that we need a much bigger stadium to not only hold our current fan base but to grow, for a start if we give the whole of the away end to away fans and move out and from the BL upper tier then we need expansion to seat them. If in the prem 80% of clubs would fail the away end.

I’d love a total rebuild of the stadium as happened to Spurs but realistically that would cost an absolute fortune.

But is tinkering with the existing stands worth it? or should the new owners go all out to make us a top English club bite the bullet and get it built, 45-50k.

 

[MobileBlade]

According to FIFA new stadiums should be built like this. In other words from John Street/Bramall Lane Corner to Cherry Street/Shoreham Street

 

[Need4speed]

Would we as fans be prepared to have at one stand/kop closed for 12-18 months and take the pain. Season tickets only covering say 2/3rds of games so that every one sees some but not all games backed up by a solid system of transferring tickets back to the club if you are not able to attend. If we as fans bought into that then the development could be much better than tinkering about. Also more expensive so dependant on owners having some real big money