Derby County

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This Kirchner bloke who's failed to get either this or PNE over the line, wonder where he'll cast covetous glances next.....
 

How much time are they getting with all this? Seems to have been numerous deadlines missed.
 
Granted, I haven't read the ins and outs of Derbys troubles (not that interested tbh) and I wouldnt want to see any club go under (Wendy aside) but it does seem that the league have been much more lenient with Derby re deadlines than they have been with smaller clubs further down the football pyramid who they were quick to throw the book at. Bury being an example. Maybe if I looked into the full details of each case it would disprove my thoughts but that's how it feels to me anyway. They seem to have bent over backwards for DCFC and giving repeated extended deadlines whilst repeating that they are 'very concerned'. I'd be pretty pissed off if I was a fan of a club who has had the league jump on them like a tonne of bricks.
 
Weasel said:
Granted, I haven't read the ins and outs of Derbys troubles (not that interested tbh) and I wouldnt want to see any club go under (Wendy aside) but it does seem that the league have been much more lenient with Derby re deadlines than they have been with smaller clubs further down the football pyramid who they were quick to throw the book at. Bury being an example. Maybe if I looked into the full details of each case it would disprove my thoughts but that's how it feels to me anyway. They seem to have bent over backwards for DCFC and giving repeated extended deadlines whilst repeating that they are 'very concerned'. I'd be pretty pissed off if I was a fan of a club who has had the league jump on them like a tonne of bricks.
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I would agree mate. The EFL are very inconsistent when it comes to rule application.

It also baffles me as to why the EFL and Prem are run by two different bodies.
 
Perhaps losing Bury, cost the EFL 3000 attendances, Derby will lose us potentially 30000 a week. Those 30000 are hardly likely to go to Forest or Chesterfield. So they thanks to criminals defrauding the game they are lost from football altogether.
 
Is this Kirchner chappie an Ashley insider? Make a bid, withdraw it, allowing the main man to sneek in as the last minute saviour and get it at a knock down price.

Ps...chasing the Premier league dream sometimes has devastating consequences..
 
Jan Age said:
I would agree mate. The EFL are very inconsistent when it comes to rule application.

It also baffles me as to why the EFL and Prem are run by two different bodies.
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I’d like to be able to say they’d learnt their lesson from Bury and were applying the rules more sensibly but does anyone really believe that?
 
Hull Blade said:
Is this Kirchner chappie an Ashley insider? Make a bid, withdraw it, allowing the main man to sneek in as the last minute saviour and get it at a knock down price.

Ps...chasing the Premier league dream sometimes has devastating consequences..
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Something like that, I think there is a bit of last minute shithousing going on to get the cheapest deal possible.
 
tincan said:
Perhaps losing Bury, cost the EFL 3000 attendances, Derby will lose us potentially 30000 a week. Those 30000 are hardly likely to go to Forest or Chesterfield. So they thanks to criminals defrauding the game they are lost from football altogether.
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I suspect that at least 20,000 will turn up for the first season in the Midland League or wherever the phoenix club ends up. When they get back to the EFL they will all be back.

I've often thought that this sort of journey would be preferable to the kind of purgatory clubs like Ipswich suffered in something like 20 seasons the Championship.

That said i've never understood why football debt has any special status in insolvency or administration. The fans are not going anywhere, every historic football club with a decent local fanbase is sustainable in the long term.

If it was made clear that; clubs, players and agents hold all the risk when the money runs out they would manage and assure sustainability requirements themselves, without any need for the league to devise a framework.
 

tyneblade said:
That said i've never understood why football debt has any special status in insolvency or administration. The fans are not going anywhere, every historic football club with a decent local fanbase is sustainable in the long term.
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The idea there is that it prevents a domino effect from one club failing and taking out a series of others to whom money is owed. Makes sense from a football league integrity perspective but difficult to reconcile when it involves the St John Ambulance being left £50k out of pocket.
 
Balham Blade said:
The idea there is that it prevents a domino effect from one club failing and taking out a series of others to whom money is owed. Makes sense from a football league integrity perspective but difficult to reconcile when it involves the St John Ambulance being left £50k out of pocket. the principle was removed agents would ensure that their profits and contracts weren't at an unacceptable risk.
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If the principle was removed agents would be much more sensitive to potential risk, so would act and advise accordingly. Hate to say it, but they might even become useful;)

The idea of these parasites having a better claim on assets than the public, via HMRC, or a local business is revolting.
 
Shakespeare blade said:
They are proper fucked, oh dear.
Speaking to a Derby friend yesterday about why the deal wasn’t done and apparently there appears to be loads of debt, not included in the administration attached to the Stadium so to buy that they have to clear the debt to & buy the stadium
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Debt and stadium is similar to our third division neighbours isn't it? To buy Chancer out would cost debt + £60m?
 
Hull Blade said:
Is this Kirchner chappie an Ashley insider? Make a bid, withdraw it, allowing the main man to sneek in as the last minute saviour and get it at a knock down price.

Ps...chasing the Premier league dream sometimes has devastating consequences..
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Not possible in this case. The price to buy Derby now is absolute lowest it can be in theory due to the way their debts are structured.

There is the option to pay back less in the pound to all the unsecured creditors than the EFL have demanded but that will incur further points deductions.

By all accounts Ashley is trying to drive down the administrators fees as he feels they are excessive. This is why they are trying their upmost to find another buyer other than him.
 
Ainsley Harriott said:
Debt and stadium is similar to our third division neighbours isn't it? To buy Chancer out would cost debt + £60m?
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The price for Pride Park is £20m as Mel Morris still owns it. That is on top of the money to buy the football club.
 
Upton_Blade said:
Not possible in this case. The price to buy Derby now is absolute lowest it can be in theory due to the way their debts are structured.

There is the option to pay back less in the pound to all the unsecured creditors than the EFL have demanded but that will incur further points deductions.

By all accounts Ashley is trying to drive down the administrators fees as he feels they are excessive. This is why they are trying their upmost to find another buyer other than him.
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How much is owed to Her Madge's Inland Revenue and Customs....in other words Tax. They chased me for £2.5k I hid but they smoked me out with rashers of succulent bacon. Barstools.
 
tyneblade said:
I suspect that at least 20,000 will turn up for the first season in the Midland League or wherever the phoenix club ends up. When they get back to the EFL they will all be back.

I've often thought that this sort of journey would be preferable to the kind of purgatory clubs like Ipswich suffered in something like 20 seasons the Championship.

That said i've never understood why football debt has any special status in insolvency or administration. The fans are not going anywhere, every historic football club with a decent local fanbase is sustainable in the long term.

If it was made clear that; clubs, players and agents hold all the risk when the money runs out they would manage and assure sustainability requirements themselves, without any need for the league to devise a framework.
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Given the governments fan led review, quotes football as having 45million supporters, Derby may well be saved in someway by the reports actions and it redefining football as a community asset rather than just a business.

(https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ll-governance-securing-the-games-future#chap1)
 
Derby when alls said and done tried to hide millions by buying their own ground a la Chansiri
in other words tried to cheat the system
Theyve been offered far more get outs than Bury got which in itself is wrong

competition rules are set to make it fair, not to look at ways of circumnavigating the rules

one day maybe all clubs will receive the same leeway and be punished equally but maybe not in our lifetime
 
Hull Blade said:
How much is owed to Her Madge's Inland Revenue and Customs....in other words Tax. They chased me for £2.5k I hid but they smoked me out with rashers of succulent bacon. Barstools.
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A lot of it I think.

Whoever buys it is basically just paying whatever the debts that can't be written off will cost.

HMRC and MSD Holdings are the main creditors that have to be paid in full. The EFL have set the price in the pound that it'll cost to pay off the unsecured creditors. 25p in the £ rings a bell but I may be wrong.

Even once that has all been paid the buyer won't own the stadium. That's another £20m on top.

Whichever way it's gets spun it's a hell of a lot of money for a L1 side.
 
blade too long said:
Derby when alls said and done tried to hide millions by buying their own ground a la Chansiri
in other words tried to cheat the system
Theyve been offered far more get outs than Bury got which in itself is wrong

competition rules are set to make it fair, not to look at ways of circumnavigating the rules

one day maybe all clubs will receive the same leeway and be punished equally but maybe not in our lifetime
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They also had issues with how they were booking player depreciation in the accounts.

Morris has well and truly fucked up in the biggest terms.
 

Winding-up petition, December 2018 – July 2019Edit​

Businessman Steve Dale bought the club from Stewart Day for £1 in December 2018[38][39]and, in February 2019, paid an outstanding tax bill to avoid a HM Revenue and Customs(HMRC) winding-up order.[40] However, financial problems resurfaced on 2 April[41]after staff and players did not receive their March salaries on time.[42] On 10 April, former head coach Chris Brass, claiming to be a creditor of the club, issued a winding-up petition to be heard in the High Court.[43] Amid the EFL's "extreme concern" about the club's situation, there was doubt about whether the home game against Colchester United on 13 April would be played (it was; Bury won 2–0). On 12 April, the club said the outstanding wage bill would be settled within the next seven days. Meanwhile, the winding-up petition was adjourned until 15 May (after the end of the league season). In addition to Brass's claim, HMRC was claiming approximately £277,000.[44]

On 25 April, Dale said the club's financial problems were "far in excess" of what he understood when he took over, and placed the club on the open market. Around £1.6m was needed to pay wages, HMRC and pensions to the end of May, with only £180,000 income expected during that period.[45] On 19 June, a High Court hearing on the winding-up petition was adjourned until 31 July, to allow additional time for a potential sale.[46]

To secure the club's future, Dale proposed a Company Voluntary Arrangement (CVA) to ensure payment of the club's football creditors in full while unsecured creditors, including HMRC, would receive 25% of monies owed. That was approved by creditors on 18 July. As a result, the winding-up petition was dismissed by the High Court on 31 July.[47]

EFL intervention, July–August 2019Edit​

Under EFL rules, a CVA is an insolvency event and left the club liable to a 12-point deduction ahead of the 2019–20 league season. Bury's preparation for the new season was further impacted by the loss of manager Ryan Lowe and several members of the first-team squad.[48]

On 25 July, the EFL sought further details on how Bury would satisfy the CVA; without proof of the club's financial viability, Bury could be expelled from the EFL.[49] Satisfactory proof was not provided, and on 29 July the club's opening league match of the season (against MK Dons at Gigg Lane) was suspended,[50][51]as were four further league games.[52][53][54][55] An EFL Cup tie was cancelled and awarded to Sheffield Wednesday.[56][55]

On 8 August, Bury was given 14 days to provide the EFL with a plan to pay off outstanding creditors. The EFL repeatedly insisted it was working with the club to try and resolve the problems,[56][57][58] but Bury faced expulsion if financial order could not be restored by 23 August.[54]

On 12 August, Dale said he would consider selling the club after staff 'implored' him to accept a newly received offer to buy the club,[59] but, on 20 August, he rejected a deal that would have secured the survival of the club, believing he could get a better offer.[55] Bury North MP James Frith wrote to EFL chair Debbie Jevans asking for the expulsion deadline to be extended;[60] Andy Burnham, the Mayor of Greater Manchester, also requested an extension.[61] On 22 August, the EFL gave an extra 48 hours to avoid expulsion after it emerged that four parties were interested in a takeover.[61] Late on 23 August, Dale was said to have agreed a sale to analytics company C&N Sporting Risk. The following morning, an EFL board meeting gave Bury until 17:00 BST on Tuesday 27 August to complete the sale,[62] though Jevans later said a further short extension might be granted if the sale was very close to conclusion.[63]Shortly before the deadline, however, C&N Sporting Risk pulled out of the deal saying it was "unable to proceed".[64]

At around 23:00 BST on 27 August, the EFL announced that Bury's membership of the league had been withdrawn.[65][66] Bury were the first club to be expelled from the Football League since Maidstone United in 1992.[66][67]After the expulsion, it emerged that a late bid from a Brazilian-backed potential buyer had been rejected.[68] The Insolvency Practitioners Association said it would investigate Bury's CVA over allegations that Dale had tried to engineer a payout to a newly formed company, RCR Holdings, run by his daughter's partner,[69] and 140 youth players were released by Bury's academy.[70]
 

BushBlade said:

Winding-up petition, December 2018 – July 2019Edit​

Businessman Steve Dale bought the club from Stewart Day for £1 in December 2018[38][39]and, in February 2019, paid an outstanding tax bill to avoid a HM Revenue and Customs(HMRC) winding-up order.[40] However, financial problems resurfaced on 2 April[41]after staff and players did not receive their March salaries on time.[42] On 10 April, former head coach Chris Brass, claiming to be a creditor of the club, issued a winding-up petition to be heard in the High Court.[43] Amid the EFL's "extreme concern" about the club's situation, there was doubt about whether the home game against Colchester United on 13 April would be played (it was; Bury won 2–0). On 12 April, the club said the outstanding wage bill would be settled within the next seven days. Meanwhile, the winding-up petition was adjourned until 15 May (after the end of the league season). In addition to Brass's claim, HMRC was claiming approximately £277,000.[44]

On 25 April, Dale said the club's financial problems were "far in excess" of what he understood when he took over, and placed the club on the open market. Around £1.6m was needed to pay wages, HMRC and pensions to the end of May, with only £180,000 income expected during that period.[45] On 19 June, a High Court hearing on the winding-up petition was adjourned until 31 July, to allow additional time for a potential sale.[46]

To secure the club's future, Dale proposed a Company Voluntary Arrangement (CVA) to ensure payment of the club's football creditors in full while unsecured creditors, including HMRC, would receive 25% of monies owed. That was approved by creditors on 18 July. As a result, the winding-up petition was dismissed by the High Court on 31 July.[47]

EFL intervention, July–August 2019Edit​

Under EFL rules, a CVA is an insolvency event and left the club liable to a 12-point deduction ahead of the 2019–20 league season. Bury's preparation for the new season was further impacted by the loss of manager Ryan Lowe and several members of the first-team squad.[48]

On 25 July, the EFL sought further details on how Bury would satisfy the CVA; without proof of the club's financial viability, Bury could be expelled from the EFL.[49] Satisfactory proof was not provided, and on 29 July the club's opening league match of the season (against MK Dons at Gigg Lane) was suspended,[50][51]as were four further league games.[52][53][54][55] An EFL Cup tie was cancelled and awarded to Sheffield Wednesday.[56][55]

On 8 August, Bury was given 14 days to provide the EFL with a plan to pay off outstanding creditors. The EFL repeatedly insisted it was working with the club to try and resolve the problems,[56][57][58] but Bury faced expulsion if financial order could not be restored by 23 August.[54]

On 12 August, Dale said he would consider selling the club after staff 'implored' him to accept a newly received offer to buy the club,[59] but, on 20 August, he rejected a deal that would have secured the survival of the club, believing he could get a better offer.[55] Bury North MP James Frith wrote to EFL chair Debbie Jevans asking for the expulsion deadline to be extended;[60] Andy Burnham, the Mayor of Greater Manchester, also requested an extension.[61] On 22 August, the EFL gave an extra 48 hours to avoid expulsion after it emerged that four parties were interested in a takeover.[61] Late on 23 August, Dale was said to have agreed a sale to analytics company C&N Sporting Risk. The following morning, an EFL board meeting gave Bury until 17:00 BST on Tuesday 27 August to complete the sale,[62] though Jevans later said a further short extension might be granted if the sale was very close to conclusion.[63]Shortly before the deadline, however, C&N Sporting Risk pulled out of the deal saying it was "unable to proceed".[64]

At around 23:00 BST on 27 August, the EFL announced that Bury's membership of the league had been withdrawn.[65][66] Bury were the first club to be expelled from the Football League since Maidstone United in 1992.[66][67]After the expulsion, it emerged that a late bid from a Brazilian-backed potential buyer had been rejected.[68] The Insolvency Practitioners Association said it would investigate Bury's CVA over allegations that Dale had tried to engineer a payout to a newly formed company, RCR Holdings, run by his daughter's partner,[69] and 140 youth players were released by Bury's academy.[70]
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Can you repeat that please?
 
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