Run the gauntlet

[The Dark Canuck]

Originally Posted by: Olliesendro

If you think that BT is the best striker to play at the Lane since Deane,...

I very rarely post. But I do read quite often. And this continued insistance from Ollie has entertained me. So I did some simple maths of some well known strikers who've played at the Lane, about their production for our club.

[DISCLAIMER: only repeated because some people are thick; and when they get an idea however wrong they stick to it doggedly] All numbers are only considering goals and matches for Sheffield United:

Keith Edwards: .55 goals per match
Brian Deane: .42 GPM
Jan Aage Fjortoft: .56 GPM
James Beattie: .55 GPM
Evans, Cresswell, Porter: each have a goals per match ratio of .25

That math tells me that Beattie is a better striker than Brian Deane, and is actually in a draw for second best striker since Keith Edwards, behind Fjortoft. This can be derived from the fact that strikers are simply judged by supporters on goals scored, actually they're also judged by clubs on that same ability. It also tells me that on that basis Beattie is a substantial upgrade on our current strikers, because his goals to matches ratio in a United kit is better.

 

[Ollessendro]

I very rarely post. But I do read quite often. And this continued insistance from Ollie has entertained me. So I did some simple maths of some well known strikers who've played at the Lane, about their production for our club.

[DISCLAIMER: only repeated because some people are thick; and when they get an idea however wrong they stick to it doggedly] All numbers are only considering goals and matches for Sheffield United:

Keith Edwards: .55 goals per match
Brian Deane: .42 GPM
Jan Aage Fjortoft: .56 GPM
James Beattie: .55 GPM
Evans, Cresswell, Porter: each have a goals per match ratio of .25

That math tells me that Beattie is a better striker than Brian Deane, and is actually in a draw for second best striker since Keith Edwards, behind Fjortoft. This can be derived from the fact that strikers are simply judged by supporters on goals scored, actually they're also judged by clubs on that same ability. It also tells me that on that basis Beattie is a substantial upgrade on our current strikers, because his goals to matches ratio in a United kit is better.

Brian Deane played 3 seasons in the top flight for the Blades. Hardly a level playing field.

 

[judge]

Brian Deane played 3 seasons in the top flight for the Blades. Hardly a level playing field.

he also played an equal ammount in lower divisions than the top flight

 

[Bergen Blade]

Make it goals per minutes and Erik Tønne may be our best ever striker!

 

[The Dark Canuck]

Originally Posted By: Ollesendro

Brian Deane played 3 seasons in the top flight for the Blades. Hardly a level playing field.

Keith Edwards scored 35 goals in Division Four and a substantial amount in Divison Three, does that disqualify his totals? No it doesn't as strikers are judged based on the amount of goals they score, you failed to take the most important fact from it.

Brian Deane also scored 22 goals in Division Three, which vastly inflates his GPM ratio. So I'll do some more work for you Ollie just in the interests of a level playing field. Brian Deane turned out for Sheffield United in the Second Tier of English football 72 times and accounted for 32 league goals, which is 2 less than the number of league goals scored by James Beattie (34) during his nine (62) fewer matches, therefore according to the numbers James Beattie was a better striker for this club, at that level, but why let the facts get in the way of a grudge, eh old chum?

FACTS AT SECOND TIER LEVEL:

Brian Deane: 72 matches 32 goals for a Goals Per Match Ratio of .44, also if I take out the 3 matches from the 2005-06 "Victory Lap" to allow Deano to end his career as a Blade his totals read 32 goals in 69 matches which is still only a ratio of .46
James Beattie: 62 matches 34 goals for a Goals Per Match Ratio of .55

Post Script: Because I'm a fan of facts, as opposed to mindless love and hate (although, yes, I will admit that I was the only child in the Niagara Region growing up with dreams of being the Canadian Brian Deane) I decided to look at their goals per matches played in the English Top Flight.

ENGLISH TOP FLIGHT TOTALS at all clubs

Brian Deane: 354 matches 95 goals for a .27 goals per match ratio
James Beattie: 309 matches 92 goals for a .30 goals per match ratio

Sadly again the player was a hero of mine growing up is statistically not as good as the player you seem to have a very very large hate on for Ollie. In fact the only area they are statistically equal is in goals scored per match, is in the England jersey with a rating of 0.00 (Deane in 3 caps and Beattie in 5).

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Keith Edwards scored 35 goals in Division Four and a substantial amount in Divison Three, does that disqualify his totals? No it doesn't as strikers are judged based on the amount of goals they score, you failed to take the most important fact from it.

Brian Deane also scored 22 goals in Division Three, which vastly inflates his GPM ratio. So I'll do some more work for you Ollie just in the interests of a level playing field. Brian Deane turned out for Sheffield United in the Second Tier of English football 72 times and accounted for 32 league goals, which is 2 less than the number of league goals scored by James Beattie (34) during his nine (62) fewer matches, therefore according to the numbers James Beattie was a better striker for this club, at that level, but why let the facts get in the way of a grudge, eh old chum?

FACTS AT SECOND TIER LEVEL:

Brian Deane: 72 matches 32 goals for a Goals Per Match Ratio of .44, also if I take out the 3 matches from the 2005-06 "Victory Lap" to allow Deano to end his career as a Blade his totals read 32 goals in 69 matches which is still only a ratio of .46
James Beattie: 62 matches 34 goals for a Goals Per Match Ratio of .55

Post Script: Because I'm a fan of facts, as opposed to mindless love and hate (although, yes, I will admit that I was the only child in the Niagara Region growing up with dreams of being the Canadian Brian Deane) I decided to look at their goals per matches played in the English Top Flight.

ENGLISH TOP FLIGHT TOTALS at all clubs

Brian Deane: 354 matches 95 goals for a .27 goals per match ratio
James Beattie: 309 matches 92 goals for a .30 goals per match ratio

Sadly again the player was a hero of mine growing up is statistically not as good as the player you seem to have a very very large hate on for Ollie. In fact the only area they are statistically equal is in goals scored per match, is in the England jersey with a rating of 0.00 (Deane in 3 caps and Beattie in 5).

Yeah but the facts don't matter to Olle because he balances his argument on something that can't be measured - the fact that James Beattie is apparently lazy and selfish and somehow makes any team he plays in worse despite scoring a shitload of goals.

Just think of all those goals he scored and all those matches he played for poor old Southampton, what a waste. They'd probably have won the Premier League a few times in those seasons if it wasn't for old James holding back the squad.

 

[Bladesway]

None of it is important right now and as great as the facts are (thanks Canuck) in supporting the Beattie argument, it will all be settled one way or another in the coming weeks and hopefully months through to the end of the season.

Noises coming from both parties are good. BT wants to stay for the season at the least and understands what he needs to do. Thankfully Ched is banging the goals in at the moment so it won't be a case of BT having no competition. With recent goings on I find the argument pretty pathetic to be honest. Can we not just see this as a positive statement by the club to get in a player who COULD bang in the goals to get us up the league?

 

[Ollessendro]

Ok, I concede Chanuc. Beattie in his hay day would have actually been fit to clean Brian Deane's boots. I can only think that you catching only the odd game of footy on Sky Sports sandwiched between ice hockey matches would have given you the impression that BT is not lazy. I never denied that Beattie has a good goals to games ratio, but think he is lazy and individualistic. His grand achievements in the game add up to zilch. But, as advised I am going to go silent on this (I have become bored) so let's see what happens. If anyone else wants to get their knickers in a twist then how about they actually run the gauntlet?

 

[JJ Sefton]

I never denied that Beattie has a good goals to games ratio, but think he is lazy and individualistic.

Much the same was said about Tony Currie.

---------- Post added at 09:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 AM ----------

His grand achievements in the game add up to zilch.

I think that goes for anyone likely to sign for Third Division Sheffield United. I may be wrong, but I dont think were going to be signing European Cup winners anytime soon unless Peter Withe is on his way back.

 

[Bladesway]

I think that goes for anyone likely to sign for Third Division Sheffield United. I may be wrong, but I dont think were going to be signing European Cup winners anytime soon unless Peter Withe is on his way back.

Good point, well put.

 

[Wapping Blade]

unless Peter Withe is on his way back.

I was so excited when we signed Withe and so disappointed when he got here!

 

[Ecco_Blade]

I never denied that Beattie has a good goals to games ratio, but think he is lazy and individualistic. [/U]

It would appear his team-mates of the time had a different view on his contribution:

JAN 13th (2009)

James Beattie has now completed his move to Stoke City. It is very disappointing for everyone at Sheffield United because he is an excellent player and a very popular member of the dressing room. He was the one who used to organize everything from investments to Christmas parties! Always full of energy and very young at heart, he was always upbeat and reminded me of my ten year old son after he had drunk two cans of coke in quick succession, always fooling around! It is something you have to deal with as a footballer, when you think that the team has a chance to achieve something and your top scorer is suddenly sold but that is the nature of football.

 

[The Dark Canuck]

Originally Posted By: Ollessendro (For some reason I always thought there was only 1 's', well my apologies)

Ok, I concede Chanuc. Beattie in his hay day would have actually been fit to clean Brian Deane's boots. I can only think that you catching only the odd game of footy on Sky Sports sandwiched between ice hockey matches would have given you the impression that BT is not lazy.

How very condescending with regards to my football watching history, I thank you. I presented you with finite evidence, you presented me with pithiness, that however is fine, I mean some times you have to muddy the waters to make it appear deep.

Originally Posted By: Ollessendro

I never denied that Beattie has a good goals to games ratio, but think he is lazy and individualistic.

Okay, I can't see anywhere where you've denied any of the numerical evidence pointed out. But the solid fact of the matter is strikers are judged purely by how many goals they score, not on how lazy or individualistic they may seem. For instance, as pointed out our own legend Tony Currie was often called both of these things, but he is hero worshiped by us all (but he was a midfielder so therefore is judged differently). In his time at Southampton Matt Le Tissier was often called fat and out of shape, but on match day, he was the player the fans wanted to have the ball. Why? He got the job done (again another midfield example). I am in no way comparing James Beattie to these players, just using their "appearance" as a kind of base, since your arguing a point that finite evidence cannot disprove. Much like I am in no way comparing Beattie to Christiano Ronaldo who people have always complained does not track back well, but why should he? He is a forward/striker. He's judged on goals he scores not if he tracks back. Again do not misunderstand and assume I'm comparing any of these players, as there is no finite evidence which makes that comparison possible.

Originally Posted By: Ollessendro

His grand achievements in the game add up to zilch.

That statement is disingenuous at best. My achievements in the game add up to zilch, since I never played the game professionally. James Beattie's achievements are as of current, 400 League Matches, 124 League Goals, 5 England Caps, at clubs such as Blackburn, Southampton, Everton, Sheffield United, Stoke, Rangers, and Blackpool. An FA Cup final runners up medal in 2003, as well. Those are very good achievements for any footballer, but the most important one of all isn't measured, he has made a very comfortable living playing a game.

Originally Posted By: Ollessendro

But, as advised I am going to go silent on this (I have become bored) so let's see what happens. If anyone else wants to get their knickers in a twist then how about they actually run the gauntlet?

This will be my final post as well on the matter, not because I have become bored but because I don't see an end game. Just wanted to get my last word in. Ollie I'm not going to say your not allowed to have your opinion, because as you rightly we don't live in North Korea.

For all intents and purposes Ollie, I think your an intelligent person, who loves a debate, which is good as I do too. However, you do remind me of a friend I once had, who was so cocksure of his debating skills that when he was losing would pretty much stick his fingers in his ears so as to ignore the points being made and yell out "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND" in an attempt to, I don't know throw the other debater off, or because he actually thought that by yelling out over top of his opponent that they didn't understand those watching would agree with him.

Post Script: I apologize if any of this seems disjointed or rambley, it is currenly 6am in Niagara and I may have gotten about 2 hours sleep. I hope the quality of my debate has not been affected

Regards,

The Dark Canuck

 

[shorehamview]

This thread in a nutshell -

Olle - "It's my ball, and if you won't let me take all the throw ins and corners and free kicks and penalties and goal kicks and be top scorer then I'm taking my ball home with me. So ner ner ner, and you all smell of wee."

Everyone else, in the entire world, with the exception of one or two sycophants - "But Olle, you won't listen to the facts."

Olle, with fingers in ears, eyes shut and yelling at top volume - "I can't hear you, la la la la la la la la."


Meanwhile, in a matter that's entirely unrelated, does anyone have any nice postcards they'd like to share with us? Pictures of the seaside, and all that jazz.

Here's one that's in no way connected with this thread.

 

[Ollessendro]

I've been away from the forum for a while and also out of touch with Sheffield United, how is mr VFM doing so far? Is Beattie proving me wrong and have I got egg on my face for saying it would be a bad signing??

 

[bricktop]

I've been away from the forum for a while and also out of touch with Sheffield United, how is mr VFM doing so far? Is Beattie proving me wrong and have I got egg on my face for saying it would be a bad signing??

Maybe if you had stayed in closer contact then you would know, mind i can't really say that i've missed your attention seeking posts.

 

[Ollessendro]

Maybe if you had stayed in closer contact then you would know, mind i can't really say that i've missed your attention seeking posts.

Actually brownie, I told a white lie, I have been following progress. So far, I've seen everything that I expected to see. There have been no extra bums on seats, BT has pulled a (probably considerable) wage and not even not featured (and looks no closer to doing so than when he first put pen to paper) and the team looks better without him being anywhere near it. I was hoping that the days of dishing out lucrative contracts to players in their early to mid 30's, past their best and 'ex heros' had gone. Perhaps he'll feature after Christmas and then I might be proved wrong. It's funny that this even bucks the trend. At least Cresswell and Simmonsen put in some shifts to win their big, end of year contracts. Beattie might just get himself one without even playing!?

 

[Mousey]

What concerns me the most is we have a supposed "Blade" here hoping that one of our players turns out to be a failure for us. And hoping to profit out of that failure.

Don't forget, this is a guy who wanted us to lost 4-0 to Wednesday at Hillsborough 2 years ago so that Blackwell might be sacked.

United's success Vs Attention is a match up that seems to swinging towards Attention.

 

[Ollessendro]

Don't forget, this is a guy who wanted us to lost 4-0 to Wednesday at Hillsborough 2 years ago so that Blackwell might be sacked.

United's success Vs Attention is a match up that seems to swinging towards Attention.

On the contrary Mousey, I want United to be successful and hence why I am opposed to this unecessary signing. At the moment we are showing that we don't really need BT and further proving my point.

As for the Wedensday thing: I said (hypothetically) that I would take a 5-0 defeat to Wednesday IF it would get Blackwell sacked. This was supposed to portray how much I was against Blackwell and wanted rid of him. I stick by that. Never would I want us to lose and especially to Wednesday.

It is funny how all the Beattie lovers were so critical of my opinions in the run up to the signing, but then no one would run the gauntlet. People have been pretty silent about the fact he has done absolutely nothing except bleed United out of a hefty wage despite signing almost a month ago.

 

[bricktop]

As for the Wedensday thing: I said (hypothetically) that I would take a 5-0 defeat to Wednesday IF it would get Blackwell sacked. This was supposed to portray how much I was against Blackwell and wanted rid of him. I stick by that. Never would I want us to lose and especially to Wednesday.

That's quite a contradiction.

 

[Ollessendro]

That's quite a contradiction.

not all. On the contrary, it is seeing the bigger picture. Blackwell had clearly taken us as far as he could and it was in Sheffield United's best interests to get rid of him. That's why I wanted him out. Same reason I opposed the pathetic Micky Adams, when it was clear he was taking us down and had no ability to stop the sinking ship.

 

[super_pig]

>Is Beattie proving me wrong
he hasnt even made the bench yet so thus far you've been spot on mate.. he needs to stay clear of the curry houses by the sound of it

 

[FlyingFjortoft]

As for the Wedensday thing: I said (hypothetically) that I would take a 5-0 defeat to Wednesday IF it would get Blackwell sacked. This was supposed to portray how much I was against Blackwell and wanted rid of him. I stick by that. Never would I want us to lose and especially to Wednesday.

I wouldn't take a 5-0 defeat to Wednesday if it meant £10,000, a hundred virgins and a night with Christa Ackroyd.

1-0 maybe...

 

[Ollessendro]

http://www.sufc.co.uk/page/Previews/0,,10418~2548583,00.html

Another cheque drawn, but the fans favouruite is no closer to featuring. Money well spent. All the BT lovers are being pretty quiet at the moment. The silence is deafening. The only thing louder at the moment is the bells ding donging to the tune of 'Olle was right' (again). It's a good job all those lilly livered mediocrity lovers did not have the balls to put their money where their mouths are and run the gauntlet.

All that is left now is to give him a lucrative end of career deal now. I was hoping those days had gone, but it appears they are ingrained and even worsening (Cresswell and Simmo earned theirs!?).

 

[Mousey]

http://www.sufc.co.uk/page/Previews/0,,10418~2548583,00.html

Another cheque drawn, but the fans favouruite is no closer to featuring. Money well spent. All the BT lovers are being pretty quiet at the moment. The silence is deafening. The only thing louder at the moment is the bells ding donging to the tune of 'Olle was right' (again). It's a good job all those lilly livered mediocrity lovers did not have the balls to put their money where their mouths are and run the gauntlet.

All that is left now is to give him a lucrative end of career deal now. I was hoping those days had gone, but it appears they are ingrained and even worsening (Cresswell and Simmo earned theirs!?).

Please note when reading the above post that it was written by someone that would have been happy if we had lost 5-0 to Wednesday, just so we could have got rid of the most successful manager (win percentage) we've ever had.

 

[shorehamview]

Look at me. Look at how the person who responds most to my posts is me. Look! Look!

LOOK! LOOK LOOK LOOK LOOK LOOK!

LOOK!

LOOK AT ME!


LOOK AT ME!!!!!!!

It's getting a bit, well, boring now. If you were a small child we'd have taken the sweeties off you and sat you on the naughty step.

Or given you up for adoption.

Or sold you to slave traders, then moved house so they couldn't bring you back for a refund.

We know Beattie hasn't played yet. Give it a fucking rest.

 

[super_pig]

>If you were a small child we'd have taken the sweeties off you and sat you on the naughty step
why?? he was RIGHT wasn't he? .. he's playing this week.. FACT

 

[Ollessendro]

Mousey - you're better of pointing out spelling mistakes than trying to debate. You are factually wrong on both accounts!

SV - if you do that to your kids, just because they were a bit smarter than you, predicted what was going to happen or spoke any general words of wisdom, then god help us!?

 

[shorehamview]

SV - if you do that to your kids, just because they were a bit smarter than you, predicted what was going to happen or spoke any general words of wisdom, then god help us!?

My daughter isn't an attention seeking brat though Olle. That's the difference, and she's only eight.

I'll accept that the signing of Beattie isn't the best this season. Now you've told us, several times, perhaps you might be able to move on. I sincerely doubt it though, as this is another one of your threads that you'll keep dragging up. How's the shed?

 

[Ollessendro]

Will we ever learn??

Wilson has 'got no money' to spend, yet we can stump up the cash to offer mr VFM a contract until the end of the season (http://www.sufc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10418~2589646,00.html). Why not offer him a lucrative 3 year contract to finish his career with United? We love these VFM twilight deals. And after all he did wear Sheff Utd shin pads (on the treatment table) at Rangers. To be fair, he deserves it. The contribution he has made has been immense. Our recent winning run is clearly down to him being in and around the dressing room. Did you see the way he 'protected' Lowton last week. Never mind the 3 game ban and loss of the game. What a hero. Perhaps he can do a few visits to Hallamshire hospital whilst he is collecting his 5 figure salary and sitting out the next 3 games.

Pretty good job none of you had the balls to take on my bet. Even Porter has found the net twice since BT has been here.