The Battle of Bramall Lane

[grafikhaus]

'20 Refereeing Decisions That Shook The World', 8.00 ITV4 tonight. At around 12th place is TBOBL.

Our United version?
1. Penalty for Liverpool (2006) cos 'the ref. thought Morgs was going to foul Stevie G'
2. Non-penalty for us v. Wimbledon away (1993) when that crook Fashanu tried to give away 2 penalties. The ref. gave the first but the second, an mirror image of a blatant handball, somehow saw the ref. ignore it (and probably divvy up later with Fashanue, Segers and Grobelaar.
3. Koz disllowed goal at West Ham (2006/7) despite the ball being as far over the line as Lampards v. Germany. Any more?

 

[Darren]

'20 Refereeing Decisions That Shook The World', 8.00 ITV4 tonight. At around 12th place is TBOBL.

Our United version?
1. Penalty for Liverpool (2006) cos 'the ref. though Morgs was going to foul Stevie G'
2. Non-penalty for us v. Wimbledon away (1993) when that crook Fashanu tried to give away 2 penalties. The ref. gave the first but the second, an mirror image of a blatant handball, somehow saw the ref. ignore it (and probably divvy up later with Fashanue, Segers and Grobelaar.
3. Koz disllowed goal at West Ham (2006/7) despite the ball being as far over the line as Lampards v. Germany. Any more?

The Wimbledon pen was on 23/3/91 and Kozluk's goal was not disallowed becasue it wasn't over the line, but because a United player had allegedly fouled the WHU goalie as he went up for the cross Kozluk scored from. I believe the alleged fouler was that giant Geary.

 

[Ollessendro]

'20 Refereeing Decisions That Shook The World', 8.00 ITV4 tonight. At around 12th place is TBOBL.

Our United version?
1. Penalty for Liverpool (2006) cos 'the ref. thought Morgs was going to foul Stevie G'
2. Non-penalty for us v. Wimbledon away (1993) when that crook Fashanu tried to give away 2 penalties. The ref. gave the first but the second, an mirror image of a blatant handball, somehow saw the ref. ignore it (and probably divvy up later with Fashanue, Segers and Grobelaar.
3. Koz disllowed goal at West Ham (2006/7) despite the ball being as far over the line as Lampards v. Germany. Any more?

The decision to give the goal that Freddie Ljundberg scored at Old Trafford for Arsenal in the FA cup semi final. Absolute scandal. The assault on Allison by Keown was bad enough, but then Poll running into and flattening Tonge (when Tonge was in a decent counter attacking position and loads of space) was just simply criminal.

There was a great one back in the mid to late 90's (Darren might be able to help) think it was against Stoke. The ref clearly gave a free kick to United and a Stoke chancer took the free kick and they ended up scoring. The goal stood, but we came back and won the game (3-2 I think?). Apparently the ref came into the dressing room and apologised afterwards.

 

[blader]

Killa's Red card at the sty a couple of years ago?

Andy Johnson NOT getting sent of for his horror challenge on Santos?

NO penalty and NO red card for Gabriel Heinze for committing GBH on Luton Shelton in the Man U penalty area at Old Trafford?

 

[Trafford]

The "goal" against Derby in the mid 80's that hit the back corner stantion of the net but the referee said had hit the post; or the penalty awarded to Everton that helped them come back from 2-0 down to win 3-2 and send us down from the old Division 1 on the last day of the season.

 

[Micalijo]

Not sure it shook the world, but the non-penalty decision at Old Trafford in 06/07 when Heinze I believe grassed Shelts is undoubtedly the worst 'decision' I have ever seen.

 

[judge]

the carling cup semi v liverpool at anfield where chris kirkland should have recieved three red cards all in a 5 second spell where he fouled wayne allison in the box ,handballed outside the box and then pushed the referee

obviously he got a yellow and we were awarded a free kick just outside the box which tommy mooney took and skyed with oh lord micheal brown stood alongside him

i was apopleptic

 

[Micalijo]

the carling cup semi v liverpool at anfield where chris kirkland should have recieved three red cards all in a 5 second spell where he fouled wayne allison in the box ,handballed outside the box and then pushed the referee

obviously he got a yellow and we were awarded a free kick just outside the box which tommy mooney took and skyed with oh lord micheal brown stood alongside him

i was apopleptic

It was deflected wasn't it? Poor strike though, agreed.

 

[judge]

also remember a challenge on mitch ward that ended with him being stretchered off with broken ribs and a punctured lung

the notts county player who commited the assault got a booking and then scored the winner
i remember the on duty copper stood alongside me in the away end said he would have arrested him for that

 

[SE1Blade]

The "goal" against Derby in the mid 80's that hit the back corner stantion of the net but the referee said had hit the post; or the penalty awarded to Everton that helped them come back from 2-0 down to win 3-2 and send us down from the old Division 1 on the last day of the season.

The "goal" that hit the stanction was against Grimsby and it was Glenn Cockerill that hit it. I think we drew 3-3. Darren will confim.

For me the worst decision was probably the decision not to give a pen for Kirklands foul on Chief at Anfield. I remember a midweek away game at West Brom in the mid-90's (we lost 1-0 Micky Mellon scored) when we should have had a pen for a neck-high assault on Jostein Flo but because it was Flo it wasn't given. Probably the 2nd worst decision I've seen. 3rd worst was maybe not giving Ainsworth a red card for his challenge on Dane.

 

[bartman]

two spring to mind for me

Tranmere away...New Years Day,lost one to (Andy Parkinson for them)....Blades corner in front of us...their keeper(Achteberg) wraps both arms round Santos and throws him to the ground...ref gives them the free kick.

Nil Nil draw under Robson v Scunny.......Scunny player gets sent off for a challenge that didn't exisit

 

[Darren]

The decision to give the goal that Freddie Ljundberg scored at Old Trafford for Arsenal in the FA cup semi final. Absolute scandal. The assault on Allison by Keown was bad enough, but then Poll running into and flattening Tonge (when Tonge was in a decent counter attacking position and loads of space) was just simply criminal.

There was a great one back in the mid to late 90's (Darren might be able to help) think it was against Stoke. The ref clearly gave a free kick to United and a Stoke chancer took the free kick and they ended up scoring. The goal stood, but we came back and won the game (3-2 I think?). Apparently the ref came into the dressing room and apologised afterwards.

It was Sol Campbell who tangled with Allison and the Stoke game was 2/12/97.

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

The "goal" that hit the stanction was against Grimsby and it was Glenn Cockerill that hit it. I think we drew 3-3. Darren will confim.

For me the worst decision was probably the decision not to give a pen for Kirklands foul on Chief at Anfield. I remember a midweek away game at West Brom in the mid-90's (we lost 1-0 Micky Mellon scored) when we should have had a pen for a neck-high assault on Jostein Flo but because it was Flo it wasn't given. Probably the 2nd worst decision I've seen. 3rd worst was maybe not giving Ainsworth a red card for his challenge on Dane.

It was indeed against Grimsby - 29/9/84 - but we lost 3-2. After the Cockerill "goal", Gary Lund got a hat trick for them before we pulled back 2 late goals through Philliskirk and Morris (pen).

 

[bricktop]

It was Sol Campbell who tangled with Allison and the Stoke game was 2/12/97.

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------



It was indeed against Grimsby - 29/9/84 - but we lost 3-2. After the Cockerill "goal", Gary Lund got a hat trick for them before we pulled back 2 late goals through Philliskirk and Morris (pen).

The Stoke came we had 4 debutants, i bet you can't name them all!

---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------

also remember a challenge on mitch ward that ended with him being stretchered off with broken ribs and a punctured lung

the notts county player who commited the assault got a booking and then scored the winner
i remember the on duty copper stood alongside me in the away end said he would have arrested him for that

94/95 season, lost 2-1

 

[Revolution]

I have seen United "score" 3 times and the goal not be given because the officials could not see it crossed the line:

1. Cockerill in the Grimsby game mentioned above.

2. Deano at Palace in 1991-2. With United dominating and the score 0-0, he headed against the bar. The ball dropped a foot over the line and bounced out. No goal given despite his protests. United lost 2-0.

3. Robert Page at Coventry in 2001-2. Sat on the side with the Coventry fans and clearly saw Page head in a corner which was clawed out by the keeper. No goal given. United lost 1-0.

Of all the terrible decisions in the PL, my personal favourite was the foul on Shelton at Old Trafford. Even Ferguson thought it was a penalty.

On a similar theme, the worst decisions I have ever seen in United's favour is Keith Edwards' goal against Everton in the league cup in 1984-5 being allowed to stand, despite the fact he was about 15 yards offside when the pass was made to him. There is TV footage on one of the United videos which shows how awful this decision was.

It was indeed against Grimsby - 29/9/84 - but we lost 3-2. After the Cockerill "goal", Gary Lund got a hat trick for them before we pulled back 2 late goals through Philliskirk and Morris (pen).

A bit of trivia - name the visiting players who have scored hat tricks at the Lane since Lund did it. By my reckoning, only 2 players have done this...

 

[Bath Blade]

I have seen United "score" 3 times and the goal not be given because the officials could not see it crossed the line:

1. Cockerill in the Grimsby game mentioned above.

2. Deano at Palace in 1991-2. With United dominating and the score 0-0, he headed against the bar. The ball dropped a foot over the line and bounced out. No goal given despite his protests. United lost 2-0.

3. Robert Page at Coventry in 2001-2. Sat on the side with the Coventry fans and clearly saw Page head in a corner which was clawed out by the keeper. No goal given. United lost 1-0.

Of all the terrible decisions in the PL, my personal favourite was the foul on Shelton at Old Trafford. Even Ferguson thought it was a penalty.

On a similar theme, the worst decisions I have ever seen in United's favour is Keith Edwards' goal against Everton in the league cup in 1984-5 being allowed to stand, despite the fact he was about 15 yards offside when the pass was made to him. There is TV footage on one of the United videos which shows how awful this decision was.

Also in United's favour, I remember Peschisolido's winner against Palace on our way to the League Cup semi in 2003 being miles offside.

Staying with the 2002/03 League Cup, for what it's worth, I think the Kirkland/Chief incident was six of one and half a dozen of the other and wasn't a free kick. However, if the ref decided it was a foul (which he did) it had to be a red card as well.

 

[cooperblade]

Grant Hegley's decision not to give a pen when Keeeeeeef Gillespie was taken out by a waist high challenge at the Madejski in our promotion season was an absolute shocker.

Best one in our favour in the same season was when a dazed and confused Paddy grabbed hold of a Hull player's ankle and pulled him over.

 

[Bath Blade]

Grant Hegley's decision not to give a pen when Keeeeeeef Gillespie was taken out by a waist high challenge at the Madejski in our promotion season was an absolute shocker.

That was his second shocker in the game. Paddy had saved a goalbound shot while outside his area and only been booked for it so it felt like he'd evened it up by not giving our penalty.

 

[Ollessendro]

Grant Hegley's decision not to give a pen when Keeeeeeef Gillespie was taken out by a waist high challenge at the Madejski in our promotion season was an absolute shocker.

Best one in our favour in the same season was when a dazed and confused Paddy grabbed hold of a Hull player's ankle and pulled him over.

That was assualt! Terrible decision (but see below)

That was his second shocker in the game. Paddy had saved a goalbound shot while outside his area and only been booked for it so it felt like he'd evened it up by not giving our penalty.

The ref blatantly did not give the pen to make up for things. Kenny should have been off first half and he bottled it. Then (knowing he had made a bad decision) he denied United a definate penalty. For me it was even more stone wall than Heinze's foul on Shelton. It was simply an assualt. Not seen owt like since I used to go out drinking in Rov-ram town centre on a Friday neet!?

How about the assualt (and I don not use the word lightly) on Walker in the play off final? Walker bombing into the box and a shocking challenge that saw the guy throw his arm across young Kyle's chest, whilst throwing his whole body weight into the challenge and of course flattening him.

It was Sol Campbell who tangled with Allison and the Stoke game was 2/12/97.

Really? Could have sworn it was Keown. Appears my mind is playing tricks. Does anyone have video footage of that or is there a website with the clip? There was no 'tangle'. It was a foot through the back of Chief's legs.

 

[Revolution]

Really? Could have sworn it was Keown. Appears my mind is playing tricks. Does anyone have video footage of that or is there a website with the clip? There was no 'tangle'. It was a foot through the back of Chief's legs.

It was definitely Campbell. I have an image in my mind's eye now of him stopping after fouling Chief, waiting for the free kick that never came.

In addition to that and Poll's contribution, we were up in arms about a third issue, which is that from where we were sitting the man on the left (Jeffers, I think) looked offside when the ball was played out to him, although as this wasn't mentioned in the media after the game I assume he was onside...

 

[Ollessendro]

Really? Could have sworn it was Keown. Appears my mind is playing tricks. Does anyone have video footage of that or is there a website with the clip? There was no 'tangle'. It was a foot through the back of Chief's legs.

It was definitely Campbell. I have an image in my mind's eye now of him stopping after fouling Chief, waiting for the free kick that never came.

In addition to that and Poll's contribution, we were up in arms about a third issue, which is that from where we were sitting the man on the left (Jeffers, I think) looked offside when the ball was played out to him, although as this wasn't mentioned in the media after the game I assume he was onside...

Yes you are right. Apologies. Cheers Darren (and Rev). I can still remember the shocking challenge. Then waiting for the foul as Allison laid crumpled on the ground. Then when Poll smashed into Tonge (and Tonge was in acres of space from what I remember and hence there was no danger) and play was allowed to continue I just could not believe what I was watching. I knew Arsenal were going to score and it seemed to pass in slow motion. I remember Chief still being laid out, as United scrambled back and then Ljundberg eventually put the ball in the net. I have never been as angry. The vile tirade of abuse that came out of my mouth scared most of the people around me (I remember one poor old lady looking at me with fear as I did my caged animal impression) and only calmed down when a steward eventually came over and told me I would be removed if I did not calm down. The incident still makes my blood boil. The reason is that United were the better team and only a shocking refereeing decision and brilliant goalkeeping (by Rotherham's finest) stopped us from going to Wembeley for our first cup final since the 30's(?). Never forgiven Poll for that.

---------- Post added at 09:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------

I should also say that Seaman's save was the best i have ever witnessed. Possibly better than Banks save from Pele in 70. Just incredible. Not only him saving from point blank, when going in the wrong direction but the fact he managed to push it out of the danger area. Most keepers would not have saved it. A very good keeper might have got his hand to it, but Pesch would have stabbed in the rebound. How the fuck he did what he did I will never know. The incident was infront of most Blades fans and I was up celebrating* when it left Peschisolido's head. I was confused, bewildered and devestated when I realised it had not gone in!? Here's the vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8qeVgB4j7s&feature=related


* from watching the video link the whiole of the Blades following behind the goal were in exactly the same boat!

 

[Darren]

The Stoke came we had 4 debutants, i bet you can't name them all!

Actually the 4 debutants were in the previous game v Crewe on 29/11/97 - Ford, Dellas, Woodhouse and Stuart.

Don't mess with me when it comes to trivia

---------- Post added at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 AM ----------

I have seen United "score" 3 times and the goal not be given because the officials could not see it crossed the line:

1. Cockerill in the Grimsby game mentioned above.

2. Deano at Palace in 1991-2. With United dominating and the score 0-0, he headed against the bar. The ball dropped a foot over the line and bounced out. No goal given despite his protests. United lost 2-0.

3. Robert Page at Coventry in 2001-2. Sat on the side with the Coventry fans and clearly saw Page head in a corner which was clawed out by the keeper. No goal given. United lost 1-0.

Of all the terrible decisions in the PL, my personal favourite was the foul on Shelton at Old Trafford. Even Ferguson thought it was a penalty.

On a similar theme, the worst decisions I have ever seen in United's favour is Keith Edwards' goal against Everton in the league cup in 1984-5 being allowed to stand, despite the fact he was about 15 yards offside when the pass was made to him. There is TV footage on one of the United videos which shows how awful this decision was.

It was indeed against Grimsby - 29/9/84 - but we lost 3-2. After the Cockerill "goal", Gary Lund got a hat trick for them before we pulled back 2 late goals through Philliskirk and Morris (pen).

A bit of trivia - name the visiting players who have scored hat tricks at the Lane since Lund did it. By my reckoning, only 2 players have done this...

On the opposite side, the goal Bromby scored at Coventry on 4/3/09 almost certainly didn't cross the line.

On the hat tricks, dunno, I don't do opposition players, but would be interested to know.

---------- Post added at 09:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 AM ----------

I should also say that Seaman's save was the best i have ever witnessed. Possibly better than Banks save from Pele in 70. Just incredible. Not only him saving from point blank, when going in the wrong direction but the fact he managed to push it out of the danger area. Most keepers would not have saved it. A very good keeper might have got his hand to it, but Pesch would have stabbed in the rebound. How the fuck he did what he did I will never know. The incident was infront of most Blades fans and I was up celebrating* when it left Peschisolido's head. I was confused, bewildered and devestated when I realised it had not gone in!? Here's the vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8qeVgB4j7s&feature=related


* from watching the video link the whiole of the Blades following behind the goal were in exactly the same boat!

To be fair, although did Seaman did knock it slightly away from Pesch, probably more from luck than judgment, it was hardly out of the danger area and Jagielka should really have done better with the follow up.

 

[SheepdipBlade]

Can anyone think of another occassion where a ref has actually floored a player (as opposed to just run into him)? Poll would have been home at home in the NFL that day.

 

[Toiletduck]

Apart from the decisions that didn't go our way that day. All i can remember is my old man pissing and moaning about Jag's follow up all the way home. He also made me stand on a little bridge? just outside Old Trafford just to look at how great all the Blades fans looked on mass.

 

[Large Mendonca]

also remember a challenge on mitch ward that ended with him being stretchered off with broken ribs and a punctured lung

the notts county player who commited the assault got a booking and then scored the winner
i remember the on duty copper stood alongside me in the away end said he would have arrested him for that

I was at that game. The ref also played zero minutes of added on time when Mitch Ward was down for at least 5 minutes.....

 

[oldblade]

On a similar theme, the worst decisions I have ever seen in United's favour is Keith Edwards' goal against Everton in the league cup in 1984-5 being allowed to stand, despite the fact he was about 15 yards offside when the pass was made to him. There is TV footage on one of the United videos which shows how awful this decision was.

The worst decision I have seen in United's favour was also in a league cup match at home to Shrewsbury in the 1983-4 season. It was in the days when there were two legs in the early rounds. This was a second round second leg match at Bramall Lane. We were trailing 2-1 from the first leg. In the first half at the Bramall Lane end, Edwards received a pass somewhere near the edge of the penalty area. He had one of his arms stuck out and the ball quite clearly struck it and allowed Edwards to bring it under control. It was so obvious that for an instant it looked as though he was playing basketball. Moments later Edwards had the ball in the back of the net, but it was greeted with almost silence from the crowd because noone could quite believe it had been awarded.

It made no difference as we went on to draw the leg 2-2 and lose 4-3 on aggregate. However we should have thrashed them in the first leg at Gay Meadow. I have rarely seen a side dominate a match so comprehensively and lose. Possibly the only other time to match it was at Plymouth the same season when we won 1-0 thanks to a late Philliskirk goal after being completely outplayed for 85 of the 90 minutes.

 

[Darren]

The worst decision I have seen in United's favour was also in a league cup match at home to Shrewsbury in the 1983-4 season. It was in the days when there were two legs in the early rounds. This was a second round second leg match at Bramall Lane. We were trailing 2-1 from the first leg. In the first half at the Bramall Lane end, Edwards received a pass somewhere near the edge of the penalty area. He had one of his arms stuck out and the ball quite clearly struck it and allowed Edwards to bring it under control. It was so obvious that for an instant it looked as though he was playing basketball. Moments later Edwards had the ball in the back of the net, but it was greeted with almost silence from the crowd because noone could quite believe it had been awarded.

It made no difference as we went on to draw the leg 2-2 and lose 4-3 on aggregate. However we should have thrashed them in the first leg at Gay Meadow. I have rarely seen a side dominate a match so comprehensively and lose. Possibly the only other time to match it was at Plymouth the same season when we won 1-0 thanks to a late Philliskirk goal after being completely outplayed for 85 of the 90 minutes.

I recall a game against Millwall at the Lane on 4/2/84 when we were on a very bad run and Millwall were outplaying us. Despite this, we were 1-0 up thanks to a Morris goal when with about 5 mins to go a Millwall player burst into the box with only Tomlinson to beat. He was just teeing up his shot when Stancliffe (I think) came from behind and literally dragged him to the ground. Astonishingly no pen was given. To add insult to Millwall's inury, Arnott got a last minute goal to see us to a 2-0 win.

 

[Revolution]

The worst decision I have seen in United's favour was also in a league cup match at home to Shrewsbury in the 1983-4 season. It was in the days when there were two legs in the early rounds. This was a second round second leg match at Bramall Lane. We were trailing 2-1 from the first leg. In the first half at the Bramall Lane end, Edwards received a pass somewhere near the edge of the penalty area. He had one of his arms stuck out and the ball quite clearly struck it and allowed Edwards to bring it under control. It was so obvious that for an instant it looked as though he was playing basketball. Moments later Edwards had the ball in the back of the net, but it was greeted with almost silence from the crowd because noone could quite believe it had been awarded.

Funnily enough, at the time Edwards rated it as one of the best goals he'd ever scored, as to finish he lobbed Steve Ogrizovic, who was of course a big man...

Anyway, the visiting players to score hat tricks at the Lane since Gary Lund are Jimmy Quinn (in a 3-1 win for Blackburn at the end of 1984-5) and Peter Whittingham (for Cardiff two seasons ago in their 4-3 win).

 

[Guesty]

I always thought Pesch should have done much better with the header. He seemed to believe he just had to touch it for it to go in. If he'd put anything behind it, Seaman wouldn't have had a chance.

 

[cooperblade]

I always thought Pesch should have done much better with the header. He seemed to believe he just had to touch it for it to go in. If he'd put anything behind it, Seaman wouldn't have had a chance.

If he'd had a haircut before the match, he'd have scored.

 

[Ollessendro]

To be fair, although did Seaman did knock it slightly away from Pesch, probably more from luck than judgment, it was hardly out of the danger area and Jagielka should really have done better with the follow up.

He deliberately flicked the ball away from goal, which was pretty special to be honest. He managed to get it into the only area he physically could where Pesch could not score and close to an Arsenal defender. Jags only had a chance at the rebound because of poor defending and tenacity from Pesch (not from Seaman luckily pushing it into the danger area).

I always thought Pesch should have done much better with the header. He seemed to believe he just had to touch it for it to go in. If he'd put anything behind it, Seaman wouldn't have had a chance.

This is true, but come on. It was a truly fantastic save. But you are right that Peschy should have buried it. A downward header, a more powerful header or anything further to the left would have left Seaman with no chance. In was a reaction header though and the point I am making is that 99% of the time it would have been enough (imo).