Outgoing? SANDER BERGE ON WAY OUT ?

[Nah den]

Will he be fit for the start of the season? We know he's not been in Spain due to injury and he's not played much in the last 6+ months. It took him a bit of time to get up to speed with the English game when he first arrived. Given his size and physical shape he strikes me as someone that needs a run of games to get match fit.

 

[gaffablade]

£15 -£20 m isn’t cheap for Berge though.

Are people seriously suggesting that he increased his value based on his spell with us?

Yes.

 

[Darthblade]

£15 -£20 m isn’t cheap for Berge though.

Are people seriously suggesting that he increased his value based on his spell with us?

Yes .....

UTB & FTP

 

[SouthportBlade]

£15 -£20 m isn’t cheap for Berge though.

Are people seriously suggesting that he increased his value based on his spell with us?

It might be semantics but I'd argue, situationally yes. However not necessarily based on performances.

It was agreeable for both Genk to sell and us to buy for around £20m, hence that was his value.

But he's moved to the Premier League and had a fee established, even though we've got relegated we still have parachute payments so may not NEED to sell and seemingly much bigger clubs with bigger bank balances than us are interested in him. Therefore, we are well within our rights to set our asking price above what we paid.

Whether other clubs pay that is a different matter and remains to be seen.

 

[dc_blade]

£15 -£20 m isn’t cheap for Berge though.

Are people seriously suggesting that he increased his value based on his spell with us?

Thing is, there's no objective measure of his value, is there? So I think almost all of us agree his performances have been largely disappointing. There's some disagreement over why, but I think a majority would take into account him being played out of position, the overall style of football being played by the team, the impact of the lockdown etc. Many (myself included) would perhaps question his attitude.

The big disagreement is on how far, if at all, his stock has fallen in the broader footballing world since he joined us. It's a separate question from how well he has played. I don't believe it has fallen as far as you and some others here seem to think. Having said that, I think talk of a big profit on him is a pipedream.

 

[alcoblade]

Thing is, there's no objective measure of his value, is there? So I think almost all of us agree his performances have been largely disappointing. There's some disagreement over why, but I think a majority would take into account him being played out of position, the overall style of football being played by the team, the impact of the lockdown etc. Many (myself included) would perhaps question his attitude.

The big disagreement is on how far, if at all, his stock has fallen in the broader footballing world since he joined us. It's a separate question from how well he has played. I don't believe it has fallen as far as you and some others here seem to think. Having said that, I think talk of a big profit on him is a pipedream.

Why do you assume that I think his stock has fallen a long way?

We bought him for £20m, he’s disappointed and has a relatively poor injury record, yet has some extenuating circumstances. I think we’d probably get £15m for him, which is a long way from suggesting he’s shite, and not miles from what we paid.

What gobsmacks me is those who think his value would have actually increased, and are seemingly happy to watch the season start with few fresh additions, on the expectation Berge improves us significantly - something he definitely hasn’t so far.

Valuations of £35m are simply laughable.

 

[dc_blade]

Why do you assume that I think his stock has fallen a long way?

We bought him for £20m, he’s disappointed and has a relatively poor injury record, yet has some extenuating circumstances. I think we’d probably get £15m for him, which is a long way from suggesting he’s shite, and not miles from what we paid.

What gobsmacks me is those who think his value would have actually increased, and are seemingly happy to watch the season start with few fresh additions, on the expectation Berge improves us significantly - something he definitely hasn’t so far.

Valuations of £35m are simply laughable.

I just had that impression. You've been one of the more critical voices in regards to Berge. I stand corrected!

If the transfer market as a whole wasn't so depressed at the moment, I think it's possible we would've made a slight profit on him. As disappointed as we have been in him, my feeling is that he's still highly regarded elsewhere. If we didn't need the money I'd be in favour of keeping him and seeing what he can do in a different system with a different manager. But in the current circumstances I think we really need to sell him, even if it's at a slight loss.

I also think it's pretty poor that he hasn't shown up for preseason yet.

 

[alcoblade]

It might be semantics but I'd argue, situationally yes. However not necessarily based on performances.

It was agreeable for both Genk to sell and us to buy for around £20m, hence that was his value.

But he's moved to the Premier League and had a fee established, even though we've got relegated we still have parachute payments so may not NEED to sell and seemingly much bigger clubs with bigger bank balances than us are interested in him. Therefore, we are well within our rights to set our asking price above what we paid.

Whether other clubs pay that is a different matter and remains to be seen.

We can set our asking prices at whatever we like - of course that’s our right.

Looking at loans is thinly veiled code for “skint”. That’s where, after wage commitments and mortgage payments are covered, I think we are.

So the problem is, if we need money to deal, and we set his value at twice what he’s worth (my point v many others here) then we won’t sell him, and will start next season with more or less the same squad. If you’re happy with that, fair enough.

 

[Greg.]

Seems fair. Not sure he'd be a full time starter for any Premier League team if coming off an injury and maybe risks a Saliba situation at Arsenal where they paid £27m and never played him?

 

[ancientblade]

Why do you assume that I think his stock has fallen a long way?

We bought him for £20m, he’s disappointed and has a relatively poor injury record, yet has some extenuating circumstances. I think we’d probably get £15m for him, which is a long way from suggesting he’s shite, and not miles from what we paid.

What gobsmacks me is those who think his value would have actually increased, and are seemingly happy to watch the season start with few fresh additions, on the expectation Berge improves us significantly - something he definitely hasn’t so far.

Valuations of £35m are simply laughable.

he will be playing in a far inferior league for one thing if he were to stay he will be a big player for us playing more attacking football for what its worth i think he will go but if we do sell him it cant be for anything less than 25m

 

[Danetheblade]

We can set our asking prices at whatever we like - of course that’s our right.

Looking at loans is thinly veiled code for “skint”. That’s where, after wage commitments and mortgage payments are covered, I think we are.

So the problem is, if we need money to deal, and we set his value at twice what he’s worth (my point v many others here) then we won’t sell him, and will start next season with more or less the same squad. If you’re happy with that, fair enough.

I'm more than happy with that personally. Arguably the best midfielder in the league (Berge). Three strikers who've averaged 20 goals a season (sharp, MCB and Brewster) the best keeper in the league (Ramsdale), two full backs full of promise (One back from international duty with Wales) (Bogle/RCD) a few smart loans and I'd say we're pretty equipped.

 

[Yogi]

Seems fair. Not sure he'd be a full time starter for any Premier League team if coming off an injury and maybe risks a Saliba situation at Arsenal where they paid £27m and never played him?

The saliba problem is between his ears that’s why he doesn’t feature. Berge is according to everyone who’s ever worked with him a model pro to the point where Norway take him on international duty even when injured because of his influence on the squad. If he went to arsenal he’d be competing with partey/xhaka to play in a 2 so he’d probably see significant minutes also arsenal have staff from when he was at genk hence the interest.

 

[alcoblade]

I'm more than happy with that personally. Arguably the best midfielder in the league (Berge). Three strikers who've averaged 20 goals a season (sharp, MCB and Brewster) the best keeper in the league (Ramsdale), two full backs full of promise (One back from international duty with Wales) (Bogle/RCD) a few smart loans and I'd say we're pretty equipped.

Personally, I think we lack individual creativity and are too dependant on a system working.

But I hope you’re right fella.

 

[JJBlade]

Amazing that our fans still think there is something reasonable about the transfer market

The clubs interested in Berge are Arsenal and perhaps Liverpool if some reports are to be believed.

When these clubs come in for a player, they have obviously seen something in him, and you absolutely milk the shit out of them, reasonable or not.

 

[SwindonBladeJnr]

Sander Berge's market value is not only determined by how he has performed since being with us. That is just one single factor.

Think about how the housing market works to understand the point.....I know of people who bought a house, did fuck all to it, and sold it for decent profit just a couple of years later.

 

[10-0 win]

Arsenal forked out 50m for Ben White

 

[Yellarbellyblade]

Arsenal forked out 50m for Ben White

So £35m each for Ramsdale and Berge feels unlikely

 

[Charlieblade]

Because we've just been relegated, which means a big drop in revenue. That's compounded by covid losses. Our owner isn't rich enough to cover our losses, so we need to raise money from sales. Berge probably wants to leave but he hasn't played well enough for us to demand top dollar--he's also just coming back from a long injury. We're just not in a very strong negotiating position, in my opinion.

I believe the opposite could also keep him at the lane, for now. Relegation means wages will be lower and we get parachute payments. We could also see paying fans back at the lane.
Meanwhile Berge is not yet fit enough to play for us, or anyone else.
That doesn’t mean we are in a week negotiating position. IMHO until he plays, and proves he still has value, we don’t need to even think about negotiations.
How many silly money bids do you think we might get in the above circumstances?

 

[ATL Recs]

I'm more than happy with that personally. Arguably the best midfielder in the league (Berge). Three strikers who've averaged 20 goals a season (sharp, MCB and Brewster) the best keeper in the league (Ramsdale), two full backs full of promise (One back from international duty with Wales) (Bogle/RCD) a few smart loans and I'd say we're pretty equipped.

Agree but how do we pay for the additions then seeing we have a 40 million hole

 

[Bladeinleeds]

Amazing that our fans still think there is something reasonable about the transfer market

The clubs interested in Berge are Arsenal and perhaps Liverpool if some reports are to be believed.

When these clubs come in for a player, they have obviously seen something in him, and you absolutely milk the shit out of them, reasonable or not.

Not sure we are in a massive position of strength to be honest.

we can’t have 20m plus player unhappy (which he obviously will be after playing CL football 18months ago), plus a drop in revenue and presumably massive transfer fee payment outstanding on various signings

we are going to sell, it’s your Liverpool etc why are you waiting to be milked the price isn’t likely increasing the closer we get to the end of the window.

 

[Champagneblade]

Not sure we are in a massive position of strength to be honest.

we can’t have 20m plus player unhappy (which he obviously will be after playing CL football 18months ago), plus a drop in revenue and presumably massive transfer fee payment outstanding on various signings

we are going to sell, it’s your Liverpool etc why are you waiting to be milked the price isn’t likely increasing the closer we get to the end of the window.

How important is CL football? Surely at his age playing regularly is more useful for his development.

The CL on the whole until the knockouts is hugely overrated in my opinion, full of mismatches where the result is a foregone conclusion bar a few.

At this stage of his development, he's either going to be playing for a lesser team getting pumped as soon as they play someone decent or playing for a bigger team against the lesser teams to give a breather for a more established player. That more established player will take his spot as soon as the bigger game comes along.

I don't see this as building him up that much.

I'd rather say that after injury and his age, a good 46 game league season where he can build trust in his body again, try things and add to his game knowing he's going to get a good run at it would be far better.

He can then enter next season with hopefully an excellent body of work and a promotion behind him.

In that scenario he'll be more proven, be the lynchpin of a confident team and have more established teams interested with the added bonus that United could then hold out for 45m rather than the 35m which is active when we got relegated.

Remember Partey went for about 47m and he was 27 already. Berge will only be 24 and still has 2 big moves and arguably 3 big contracts left in him. IF he fulfils his potential, which is of course down to him.

 

[Weasel]

Not sure we are in a massive position of strength to be honest.

we can’t have 20m plus player unhappy (which he obviously will be after playing CL football 18months ago), plus a drop in revenue and presumably massive transfer fee payment outstanding on various signings

we are going to sell, it’s your Liverpool etc why are you waiting to be milked the price isn’t likely increasing the closer we get to the end of the window.

Provided that the lads doesn't just down tools (highly unlikely given all previous reports on the lad) then I'm not sure why you are so certain that 'we are going to sell'?

The lad has already been in discussion with SJ and the gaffer has asked him to stay for this season and try and help get us promoted and if we don't manage it then we will actively try to move him on. Seems to me then that the club are wanting him to stay but will let him go IF an acceptable bid comes in. Until that happens though he isn't going anyway. So no, I don't agree that it is certain that 'we are going to sell' (at least not in this transfer window). If we get a decent fee in (£25m plus I would guess) then I would see it happening, but nothings certain. I very much see him still being at the Lane next season.

 

[Weasel]

How important is CL football? Surely at his age playing regularly is more useful for his development.

The CL on the whole until the knockouts is hugely overrated in my opinion, full of mismatches where the result is a foregone conclusion bar a few.

At this stage of his development, he's either going to be playing for a lesser team getting pumped as soon as they play someone decent or playing for a bigger team against the lesser teams to give a breather for a more established player. That more established player will take his spot as soon as the bigger game comes along.

I don't see this as building him up that much.

I'd rather say that after injury and his age, a good 46 game league season where he can build trust in his body again, try things and add to his game knowing he's going to get a good run at it would be far better.

He can then enter next season with hopefully an excellent body of work and a promotion behind him.

In that scenario he'll be more proven, be the lynchpin of a confident team and have more established teams interested with the added bonus that United could then hold out for 45m rather than the 35m which is active when we got relegated.

Remember Partey went for about 47m and he was 27 already. Berge will only be 24 and still has 2 big moves and arguably 3 big contracts left in him. IF he fulfils his potential, which is of course down to him.

I agree. The best thing for the lad career wise is to stay at the Lane next season and try and achieve promotion with Utd. If he goes up with us he will have proven himself and had more football under his belt at a decent ish level. If we don't manage promotion then the club will actively look to move him on. Works for both parties I think (provided no PL comes in for him with an acceptable bid this pre season).

Worked out OK for Buendia at Norwich.

Money wise, better for the lad to move on. Career wise, better for the lad to give it a crack with us next season (imo).

 

[robbiez666]

We're a stepping stone for Sander and we sank a bit so more of a leap than a step.

I don't understand why he'd want to stick around. Presumably the plan was to get a season or two of PL experience and then move to a bigger team. He doesn't need Championship experience. He has played almost 200 games so far in his career.

I suspect we'll probably end up selling and in a depressed transfer market maybe just getting our money back. If we were stilla PL team I think we'd hold out much easier.

I suspect, given the injury, we might hold onto him until January but unlikely to be any longer than that unless we're running away with the league.

 

[Champagneblade]

We're a stepping stone for Sander and we sank a bit so more of a leap than a step.

I don't understand why he'd want to stick around. Presumably the plan was to get a season or two of PL experience and then move to a bigger team. He doesn't need Championship experience. He has played almost 200 games so far in his career.

I suspect we'll probably end up selling and in a depressed transfer market maybe just getting our money back. If we were stilla PL team I think we'd hold out much easier.

I suspect, given the injury, we might hold onto him until January but unlikely to be any longer than that unless we're running away with the league.

I understand what you describe is probably his and his agent's desired career trajectory.

Let's also consider though that he was also part of the team that got relegated. It's not as if it had nothing to do with him. He was also part of a midfield that between him, Fleck, Norwood and Lundstram managed not a single goal from open play between them all season. He did miss a fair chunk through injury but the dye had already been cast for the season by the time he got injured.

He is also where he is right now due in some part to his own contribution.

He has potential, but he didn't realise enough of this last season for us. If Arsenal come in, they are paying for what they hope he becomes not what he has shown so far.

 

[dc_blade]

I believe the opposite could also keep him at the lane, for now. Relegation means wages will be lower and we get parachute payments. We could also see paying fans back at the lane.
Meanwhile Berge is not yet fit enough to play for us, or anyone else.
That doesn’t mean we are in a week negotiating position. IMHO until he plays, and proves he still has value, we don’t need to even think about negotiations.
How many silly money bids do you think we might get in the above circumstances?

I doubt we'll get any silly money bids, which is why we'll be forced to accept less. I admire your efforts to find positives in our financial situation and I hope you're right. But I strongly suspect that selling Berge (and possibly Ramsdale) is central to our strategy for the coming season. We have just experienced a huge drop in revenue, parachute payments or not, and have a relatively poor owner. I can't see any other way of squaring the circle.

 

[finlaytheblade]

Will he be fit for the start of the season? We know he's not been in Spain due to injury and he's not played much in the last 6+ months. It took him a bit of time to get up to speed with the English game when he first arrived. Given his size and physical shape he strikes me as someone that needs a run of games to get match fit.

Cant see Arsenal taking a punt on him at this juncture .Think we will have at least half a season out of him! If it goes well maybe even keeping him.
I think he has to prove his fitness to get a big move.
The prince is not McCabe and will not take the first offer on the table ! In my opinion.

 

[Bladesman]

Damn right, pay up or piss off Arsenal.

 

[Balham]

Arsenal forked out 50m for Ben White

So £35m each for Ramsdale and Berge feels unlikely

Au contraire. In a world where Arsenal are willing to pay £50m for an essentially unproven centre half, £35m each for Ramsdale and Berge is a bargain.

 

[AdamSufc1997]

Don't really need to sell this season so if no one pays it we keep him simple as