Stadium expansion

[Charlieblade]

There is another positive downside to that though!

Is my passport out of date?

 

[BanderSerge]

In this order.
1st 11.
Training complex.
Ground.

 

[Harrisblade]

I agree totally but that idea went out of the window when we made the kop all seater and built the John Street Stand.

The time to do what you suggest has long since gone and every bit of the ground improvements (if you can actually call them that) have been done on a piece meal basis with no thought what so ever put into having new stands actually look part of what it is next to - even down to the fact that John Street is longer than South Stand - It starts in the same place on the kop end, but at the Bramall Lane end it is a few seats longer. This is only apparent when you are in H block.

We didn't even build the Copthorne with the South Stand 2nd tier in mind - any 2nd tier will be shorter at the Copthorne end than what will then be the SS lower tier. This is quite clear from the original video that came out of this upgrade a number of years ago. Building a hotel without taking into consideration a stadium upgrade is just plain stupid, especially when extra floors could probably have been added on top of the Copthorne at design stage.

The whole upgrade(s) to the stadium at what ever stage since I started watching us when it was a 3 sided ground has been nothing short of pathetic from a design perspective. Admittedly costs along the way may have had some input but at the end of the day there is zero excuse for not designing expansion and connectivity in. If ever a piecemeal development is evident - it's evident at BDTBL.

UTB

How could any previous development have been anything BUT piecemeal given our financial state over the past umpteen years?

 

[Blade for Sale]

In this order.
1st 11.
Training complex.
Ground.

I get that but when do you decide the 1st XI is good enough? It gets refreshed twice a year, at some point the 'player' financial pot is going ton have to compete with the 'stadium'and 'training ground' financial pots.

The first team is a constant work in progress.

 

[YES Blade]

I get that but when do you decide the 1st XI is good enough? It gets refreshed twice a year, at some point the 'player' financial pot is going ton have to compete with the 'stadium'and 'training ground' financial pots.

The first team is a constant work in progress.

Surely any major work on the Lane and a new training ground would be financed by a long term loan/mortgage?

 

[Upton_Blade]

I don't think the opportunity has completely gone, but (and it's a huge but), it will be more expensive than the cheap options which we currently have planning permission for. Anything is possible if you've got the money, like Spurs new stadium for example.

Spurs didn't have the money though. They borrowed it and have now had to borrow another £170m through one of the government schemes just to tide them over. No shock they haven't exactly been that active in the transfer market over the last couple of years and look where they have been left in the league. Quite sure their predictions/budgets for a super stadium like that included yearly champions league football.

I love Bramall Lane but that's mainly down to the memories I have there, it's certainly not a stadium that fans of other clubs are envious of.

And yet, never mind what league we are in, it it always comes out near the top of opposing fans favourite away day.

indeed, we all love our grounds, but i agree, it is a poor design by 2020 standards. Spurs have set the new benchmark and we could never get anywhere near that, but we should at least try in future and do it better than before. Prem money will obviously help but apart from John Street, the other three sides need serious attention.

John Street, IMO, is probably the 2nd stand, after the kop, that needs attention the most but the chances of us being able to do anything with are virtually nil unless we bought up all the houses behind it, moved the pitch nearer the SS and knocked it down and started again. Woeful capacity for a premier league stand.

In fact , I think there's more likelihood of a new stadium , if the land at the Lane becomes desirable for other purposes.

Do people seriously hate the idea of the bolt on designs that much that they would be prepared to move from BDTBL? I'm no land expert but I can't see anywhere within the city centre footprint that would be suitable for a 50k seater stadium and I'm really not sure how much selling the lane would generate. Spurs ground cost circa £1b, Evertons new ground is going to be £500m plus but they are selling everything commercially apart from probably the players underpants. Usmanov has paid £30m just for 1st dibs at the stadium naming rights not the actual rights themselves as no real way to value these until it's finished.

Because we nigh on sell out every week. If we don't sell out, it's due to restricted view and single tickets only being available or the ability to only give 2,700 tickets to away fans when most clubs at this level could bring double that. We also pretty much sell out every week in spite of the fact that this season the club have made it impossible for new fans

Not meaning to be argumentative just for the sake of it but how many times this season have we had more than 3k away tickets irrespective of stadium size?

Also, irrespective of the Lane, building a new stadium would cost stupid money we don't have. Sorry to disagree but I think you're wrong here Luke.

See above. Unless something changes we have one of the poorest owners in the league. Rich compared to you and me but in Prem terms not so much.

We’re in a new era at Bramall Lane, get the small time McCabe mentality out of your head! If you can dream it, Wilder can make it happen!

Possibly one of the most "head in the clouds" comments I've ever read on here. It's all good and well dreaming it, we all do, but the reality of making it happen is a totally different matter and I find the notion that anyone trying to suggest even a modicum of common sense regarding finances has a "small time McCabe" mentality extremely offensive. Easy when it's not your money isn't it???

I’m sorry but the days of standing on a crumbling terrace are over. We should rightly expect a club of our size to provide facilities to match clubs such as Brighton. There are League One clubs with better facilities than us for god sake!

Now you're just blatantly on a wind up surely? Brighton FFS. Terrible stadium. What next? The Madesjki, The Ricoh, The New York Stadium? If you'd rather move to a soulless bowl just to have slightly better facilities then I'm not sure there's any hope for you!

As good as the new spurs ground is, if we tried something like that it would end up more like a slightly bigger Madejski and we'd regret it for eternity

Correct!

Teams like Leicester and wolves are expanding their grounds. I think Palace and Southampton too. These are the clubs we should be competing with.

I'll give you Wolves and Palace to an extent but Leicester and Southampton, albeit better than most, are just more examples of terrible bowl stadiums that could be any team in the country. Going down this route would be the absolute last resort for me.

Surely any major work on the Lane and a new training ground would be financed by a long term loan/mortgage?

We've just taken one to buy the ground in the 1st instance. Not sure there's a never ending supply of credit available at this time nor would I want us to go down the Spurs route as it's already going tits up for them.

 

[JohnDenver]

I get that but when do you decide the 1st XI is good enough?

The first xi is good enough. The trigger should be when our back up players are capable of holding the fort in an injury crisis or when the current generation peak.

If Palace are going to spend tens of mion a new stand, and simultaneously lose Zaha, I’d predict big trouble for them. Not just because they’re so reliant on him, but the rest of the team look to have little improvement left in them.

So I’d want Wilder to believe we can survive a rocky season before spending big on the ground. Based on squad strength and financial contingency for January.

 

[Rochdaleblade]

I wasn't suggesting building an out of town bowl, merely adding more capacity at the lane. Despite capping season tickets and only giving away fans 2700 ish seats, there are still plenty of blades fans who cannot get into matches. The club is losing out on potential income and also the next generation of fans in Sheffield. I am not advocating prioritising the ground over the first team, but if we don't expand, then other clubs are likely to overtake us.

 

[Upton_Blade]

I wasn't suggesting building an out of town bowl, merely adding more capacity at the lane. Despite capping season tickets and only giving away fans 2700 ish seats, there are still plenty of blades fans who cannot get into matches. The club is losing out on potential income and also the next generation of fans in Sheffield. I am not advocating prioritising the ground over the first team, but if we don't expand, then other clubs are likely to overtake us.

Isn't that the whole point of the bolt on designs? Stadium expansion at relatively little cost and no moving from the lane.

Apologies if I misread your post. Been away for the weekend and trying to skim through to catch up.

 

[Rochdaleblade]

Isn't that the whole point of the bolt on designs? Stadium expansion at relatively little cost and no moving from the lane.

Apologies if I misread your post. Been away for the weekend and trying to skim through to catch up.

Pretty much and with as little disruption as possible.

 

[SUFC Guy]

 

[SUFC Guy]

Seriously though, think about the grunters and how would they possible cope if we have a larger capacity than them ?

Can they handle that right now?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

View attachment 85698

Not in Sunderland.

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

Not in Sunderland.

Thats just plain old bait.

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

I wonder if Leeds have any stadium expansion plans,it is an old hovel afterall.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

Personally I think any stadium upgrade needs to be focused on facilities and increasing the matchday £revenue rather than more bums on seats!

As an example - when the International Bar was open, I'd happily get there 1ish and sit and drink and look out onto the pitch and watch the stadium fill up!

No that's gone, I take my money elsewhere before the game. The facilities all round our ground are awful with pubs around the ground closing, there's even a business opportunity for the club to step up and fill the void!

If we're being imaginative - imagine a rooftop bar serving Peroni on top of the John Street and South Stands?!?

 

[LoughboroBlade]

If, as we seem to be planning, the Kop pillars are being planned to be removed – I think it would be a good moment to replace the existing seats with rail seating. This is permitted for seating within the current regulations, and it currently looks likely that the government will bring forward the legislation it committed to bring in once the final report from the Sports Grounds Safety Authority lands in the next month. But even if that were to be suddenly shelved (which at this stage would be a big surprise), bringing rail seating into the Kop would:

• improve safety when fans stand (which they do more there than anywhere else in the ground)
• increase the room taken up by the current seating when the seat is tipped up or down (as current rail seating options have a reduced depth compared to our early 90s seating rows)

Improves safety, increases leg-room, future proofing to potentially increase the capacity there when the expected law change comes in. It in my opinion would make sense to get that all done while the Kop isn’t being used (and when work on the pillars is being done).

 

[Berkshire Blade]

Isn't the current rail seating plan to keep capacity same as if seated? So little actual benefits in terms of capacity.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Isn't the current rail seating plan to keep capacity same as if seated? So little actual benefits in terms of capacity.

That’s what you can only do at the moment, yes, were we to introduce it tomorrow.

But the end of the all-seater law will open up the potential to look at, for example, 1.5x use. As I said though, I think there are benefits even if there was 0 change on the capacity front.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

Isn't the current rail seating plan to keep capacity same as if seated? So little actual benefits in terms of capacity.

At the risk of being the party pooper, how many games have we actually sold out in the past 3 years? Typically that would be the driver for a capacity increase and selling 2 or 3 home games a season isn't going to drive that expenditure.

Conversely, the quickest win would be increasing our capacity for away fans, but the logistics behind that are tough.

We're miles off both at the moment. Another couple dozen executive boxes, a fine dining restaurant and a helipad on top of the Copthorne will be further up the To Do List!!

 

[YES Blade]

That’s what you can only do at the moment, yes, were we to introduce it tomorrow.

But the end of the all-seater law will open up the potential to look at, for example, 1.5x use. As I said though, I think there are benefits even if there was 0 change on the capacity front.

From a safety perspective, would we be allowed to increase the capacity by 1.5 times with safe standing? For example, do we have enough emergency exits?

 

[LoughboroBlade]

From a safety perspective, would we be allowed to increase the capacity by 1.5 times with safe standing? For example, do we have enough emergency exits?

The Green Guide updated in 2018 made provision for increasing capacity in seating-with-barriers if the anticipated law change goes ahead, subject to several strict provisos. Egress and access would be factors, and obviously we’d need to ensure there are expanded/extra facilities that would be sufficient for any increased number.

I suspect that any increases in capacity would be much lower in the Kop though compared to a more modern construction that has under-stand exits and wider rows. As I’ve mentioned before elsewhere, at 650mm width per row the Kop is already beneath the minimum recommended width on a modern stand. It’s one of the reasons my preference is for a full rebuild. But if we aren’t prepared to do that, my preference is to make the current structure as good as it could be.

I’d need to look into it a bit more, but it might be the case that the Kop corner row depth would make a capacity increase there, while being far more modest, more feasible.

 

[JohnDenver]

At the risk of being the party pooper, how many games have we actually sold out in the past 3 years? Typically that would be the driver for a capacity increase and selling 2 or 3 home games a season isn't going to drive that expenditure.

Conversely, the quickest win would be increasing our capacity for away fans, but the logistics behind that are tough.

We're miles off both at the moment. Another couple dozen executive boxes, a fine dining restaurant and a helipad on top of the Copthorne will be further up the To Do List!!

You’re right but the cost/building involved in in adding exec boxes means you’re unlikely to do it in abstraction from capacity increases.

 

[S64 Blade]

At the risk of being the party pooper, how many games have we actually sold out in the past 3 years? Typically that would be the driver for a capacity increase and selling 2 or 3 home games a season isn't going to drive that expenditure.

We've sold out quite a few, even Bournemouth at home this season, which was on Sky.

Despite that, we have been at probably 98% capacity in the home stands every single game this season. There's a couple of reasons why it hasn't been more;

1. Ticket policy - Rightly the club have protected regular fans and given them first dibs on matchday tickets. On a number occasions this season, the club have left it way too close to the matchday to allow for non-members the chance to buy a ticket. We haven't been able to increase our fan base really as casual fans/newbies have had an incredibly limited opportunity to buy a ticket. We need to make it easy for people who aren't established fans to buy a ticket, so that some day, they too might become a ST holder.

2. Seating availability - It's rare that anything other than single seats remain available, especially in the nicer areas of the ground. If you can't go and sit with your mate, or family, you probably will give it a miss.

3. Growth - Tying the two points above together, you can only grow with increase capacity. If there's very limited opportunity to expand the fan base, it won't happen. The last time we were in the Premier League we capitalised on this. We were probably still seeing the benefits of this during the Adkins era - averaging 20k in League One. We barely managed that prior to our last promotion to the Premier League.

 

[Inter_blade83]

Spurs didn't have the money though. They borrowed it and have now had to borrow another £170m through one of the government schemes just to tide them over. No shock they haven't exactly been that active in the transfer market over the last couple of years and look where they have been left in the league. Quite sure their predictions/budgets for a super stadium like that included yearly champions league football.



And yet, never mind what league we are in, it it always comes out near the top of opposing fans favourite away day.



John Street, IMO, is probably the 2nd stand, after the kop, that needs attention the most but the chances of us being able to do anything with are virtually nil unless we bought up all the houses behind it, moved the pitch nearer the SS and knocked it down and started again. Woeful capacity for a premier league stand.



Do people seriously hate the idea of the bolt on designs that much that they would be prepared to move from BDTBL? I'm no land expert but I can't see anywhere within the city centre footprint that would be suitable for a 50k seater stadium and I'm really not sure how much selling the lane would generate. Spurs ground cost circa £1b, Evertons new ground is going to be £500m plus but they are selling everything commercially apart from probably the players underpants. Usmanov has paid £30m just for 1st dibs at the stadium naming rights not the actual rights themselves as no real way to value these until it's finished.



Not meaning to be argumentative just for the sake of it but how many times this season have we had more than 3k away tickets irrespective of stadium size?



See above. Unless something changes we have one of the poorest owners in the league. Rich compared to you and me but in Prem terms not so much.



Possibly one of the most "head in the clouds" comments I've ever read on here. It's all good and well dreaming it, we all do, but the reality of making it happen is a totally different matter and I find the notion that anyone trying to suggest even a modicum of common sense regarding finances has a "small time McCabe" mentality extremely offensive. Easy when it's not your money isn't it???



Now you're just blatantly on a wind up surely? Brighton FFS. Terrible stadium. What next? The Madesjki, The Ricoh, The New York Stadium? If you'd rather move to a soulless bowl just to have slightly better facilities then I'm not sure there's any hope for you!



Correct!



I'll give you Wolves and Palace to an extent but Leicester and Southampton, albeit better than most, are just more examples of terrible bowl stadiums that could be any team in the country. Going down this route would be the absolute last resort for me.



We've just taken one to buy the ground in the 1st instance. Not sure there's a never ending supply of credit available at this time nor would I want us to go down the Spurs route as it's already going tits up for them.

RE: John St. It's only 1,000 seats less than the south stand.

Ideally you buy up the properties behind, close the road off and add a big upper tier above the existing boxes. Another 4k on there and 5k on the South will give us the space to knock down the kop and build a proper stand there instead of the shed we currently have. The 10k capacity of the Kop is the reason we cannot do anything. Too many people miss out. Add 9k elsewhere and then we can build a new one. Even if it's smaller with a better rake, say 8k, we would then have a modern stadium with just under 40k capacity.

 

[S5Blade]

RE: John St. It's only 1,000 seats less than the south stand.

Ideally you buy up the properties behind, close the road off and add a big upper tier above the existing boxes. Another 4k on there and 5k on the South will give us the space to knock down the kop and build a proper stand there instead of the shed we currently have. The 10k capacity of the Kop is the reason we cannot do anything. Too many people miss out. Add 9k elsewhere and then we can build a new one. Even if it's smaller with a better rake, say 8k, we would then have a modern stadium with just under 40k capacity.

I though the reason we cant do anything with the KOP was because its basically built on some kind of landfill / toxic foundations to the cost to remove and dispose of them would be absolutely horrendous.

 

[Inter_blade83]

I though the reason we cant do anything with the KOP was because its basically built on some kind of landfill / toxic foundations to the cost to remove and dispose of them would be absolutely horrendous.

Over years that kind of thing stops being an issue doesn't it?

Remember before the Jury's Inn was built, the land was blocked off with contamination signs for a while before building was allowed to commence.

Remove the contamination, leave for a few months and then start building.

If the other things have been built, no one misses out. That was my point.

Imagine knocking it down without the means to seat 10k fans every other week. It would disastrous for the club and fans.

 

[FallowfieldBlade]

Just do the kop then see where we are , it doesn’t matter if we get relegated next season the kop still needs redoing and it would make bramall lane look 100x aesthetic

No need to do the south stand just yet 35k is probably what we can sell out every week with giving the away fans 3k.

Do the south stand when we’ve been in the Europa league for 2/3 seasons

 

[LoughboroBlade]

The Green Guide updated in 2018 made provision for increasing capacity in seating-with-barriers if the anticipated law change goes ahead, subject to several strict provisos. Egress and access would be factors, and obviously we’d need to ensure there are expanded/extra facilities that would be sufficient for any increased number.

I suspect that any increases in capacity would be much lower in the Kop though compared to a more modern construction that has under-stand exits and wider rows. As I’ve mentioned before elsewhere, at 650mm width per row the Kop is already beneath the minimum recommended width on a modern stand. It’s one of the reasons my preference is for a full rebuild. But if we aren’t prepared to do that, my preference is to make the current structure as good as it could be.

I’d need to look into it a bit more, but it might be the case that the Kop corner row depth would make a capacity increase there, while being far more modest, more feasible.

To clarify after digging a bit into the planning details and revisiting what’s permitted for rail seating capacity increases:

• There is nothing to prevent rail seating being installed now, used as seating (or unofficial standing), and then used officially as standing once the all-seater laws are scrapped as expected
• However, it would not be possible unless there’s a change in guidance from the SGSA to increase the numbers in those rows. A minimum of 700mm is currently needed with seat tipped up – the Kop rows themselves are 650mm in depth. It would be therefore capacity neutral were the sections to be licensed for standing.
• That said, the proposed extended rows on the current plans would, at 850mm, be more than ample for this. These are supposed to increase seating by 2,900 under current plans, so rail seating would with the law change enable at least an extra 1,450 capacity. So an overall Kop capacity of 14,750 compared to current 10,400.
• I can’t see the dimensions on the row depth for the Kop corner, but it seems deeper on the designs, so a capacity increase there might be possible under the expected law change.

One thing to add from re-examining the plans, and given the talk here about increasing the executive box capacity. I’d completely forgotten that the plans for extending the Kop included as part of that plans to build 6 new executive boxes on the Kop corner. Might be the sweetener for doing the work.

 

[Lower Drop Blade]

RE: John St. It's only 1,000 seats less than the south stand.

Ideally you buy up the properties behind, close the road off and add a big upper tier above the existing boxes. Another 4k on there and 5k on the South will give us the space to knock down the kop and build a proper stand there instead of the shed we currently have. The 10k capacity of the Kop is the reason we cannot do anything. Too many people miss out. Add 9k elsewhere and then we can build a new one. Even if it's smaller with a better rake, say 8k, we would then have a modern stadium with just under 40k capacity.

Maybe the people living in John street will tell them to fuck off and stop kicking them out of there homes .... maybe