Old big nose

[Sean Thornton]

<< When Warnock took over at Bramall Lane in December 1999, he knew that the club needed to start producing their own players again. "For some reason," he explains, "we had no youth policy at all anymore. So the first thing I did when I arrived was ask the board to build us an academy."

Three years on, and the centre is in full swing. Of the current first-team squad, no fewer than four players (Tonge, Nick Montgomery, Phil Jagielka and Ben Doane) came through the ranks. Warnock believes that a large part of the scheme's success is down to the academy's director. "And I'm not just saying that because he's my big brother," Warnock junior says. "Right from the off, John and I had a vision. We wanted to try to emulate what Ipswich have achieved. Selling one homegrown player every year is the only logical way we can survive." Should United fail to reach the Premiership this year, Tonge would almost certainly be the first to go, probably to Liverpool. "That's the reality," Warnock says, "and that's why we have to make absolutely sure we get promoted." >>

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-to-fulfil-role-as-man-of-destiny-123996.html

All four players were already at the club when NW was appointed.

 

[S64 Blade]

All four players were already at the club when NW was appointed.

That may be so, but was there the infrastructure in place to give them the best possible chance of getting in to the first team? Was the coaching up to scratch, was there a pathway for them to reach the first team?

As we have seen there's been many good players at poor youth set ups who have then fallen through the net. Some have managed to build their way to the top (Vardy), but there will be many others who we don't even know about.

 

[Sean Thornton]

That may be so, but was there the infrastructure in place to give them the best possible chance of getting in to the first team? Was the coaching up to scratch, was there a pathway for them to reach the first team?

As we have seen there's been many good players at poor youth set ups who have then fallen through the net. Some have managed to build their way to the top (Vardy), but there will be many others who we don't even know about.

All four players made the first team before academy status was granted. I know getting that status takes time and great effort and doesn't happen overnight and there is no doubt that RR and JW elevated our set up, but similarly, those four were established youth players even before NW came to the club.

My point isn't that John Warnock and Ronnie Reid weren't responsible for continued success, they were and we are sti reaping the benefits today, but that NW had little input into the academy.
There's an article on JW where he gives credit to the board for supporting them without mentioning his brother. But unlike Colin John and Ronnie weren't that bothered about seeing their names in the paper every five minutes. Such as claiming he put 17500 on the gates.

 

[dynamoblade]

Sir Neil of Warnock is the only manager worth talking about since Bassett. Until Wilder he was still the inly one worth a moment's thought. He is a football legend in his own right, but more than that he is one of our legends. The sourgrapes on here towards the lad is mindboggling.

 

[Dkc]

The sourgrapes on here towards the lad is mindboggling.

Yep. He didn't do anything wrong except have a big gob on him. He didn't desert us to manage Pompey, the Pigs or anyone else. His work since has shown that he's a very competent manager, and he's also a legend. He was a player for Rotherham and Chesterfield in the 60's. He was already a manager when we dropped to Division 4 in 1981. He took Notts County from the old 3rd division to the first, before it was re-named the Premier League. He took the Blades to League Cup and FA Cup semis, a Play Off final and ultimately got us promoted to the top flight after about 30 years languishing in the lower divisions.

 

[Esablade]

The sourgrapes on here towards the lad is mindboggling.

All part of project 'look the other way'...

 

[BushBlade]

Football manager has big ego shock. Who'd have thought it? A successful manager is a bit of a twat? Thank fuck we never got Brian Clough or Sir Alex Ferguson, what an embarrassment that would have been.

 

[The Crab]

Football manager has big ego shock. Who'd have thought it? A successful manager is a bit of a twat? Thank fuck we never got Brian Clough or Sir Alex Ferguson, what an embarrassment that would have been.

Blades budget, we got Nigel but managed to avoid Darren

 

[Sean Thornton]

Yep. He didn't do anything wrong except have a big gob on him. He didn't desert us to manage Pompey, the Pigs or anyone else. His work since has shown that he's a very competent manager, and he's also a legend. He was a player for Rotherham and Chesterfield in the 60's. He was already a manager when we dropped to Division 4 in 1981. He took Notts County from the old 3rd division to the first, before it was re-named the Premier League. He took the Blades to League Cup and FA Cup semis, a Play Off final and ultimately got us promoted to the top flight after about 30 years languishing in the lower divisions.

30 years? Is that you Neil?

 

[Sothall_Blade]

All four players made the first team before academy status was granted. I know getting that status takes time and great effort and doesn't happen overnight and there is no doubt that RR and JW elevated our set up, but similarly, those four were established youth players even before NW came to the club.

My point isn't that John Warnock and Ronnie Reid weren't responsible for continued success, they were and we are sti reaping the benefits today, but that NW had little input into the academy.
There's an article on JW where he gives credit to the board for supporting them without mentioning his brother. But unlike Colin John and Ronnie weren't that bothered about seeing their names in the paper every five minutes. Such as claiming he put 17500 on the gates.

The average attendance in Warnock's first half season was 13,700.
In the first 10 matches under Adrian Heath the average attendance was 12,490.
In Warnock's last season it was 30,512.
So he actually increased the average attendance by 18,022.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Sir Neil of Warnock is the only manager worth talking about since Bassett. Until Wilder he was still the inly one worth a moment's thought. He is a football legend in his own right, but more than that he is one of our legends. The sourgrapes on here towards the lad is mindboggling.

No sour grapes from me and his best fans comments are fine by me, it's what he does. My opinion is about his conduct and management at the latter part of his time with us and his rewriting of history. Legend? Wouldn't argue with him being a club legend but he left a nasty taste at the end as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

Yep. He didn't do anything wrong except have a big gob on him. He didn't desert us to manage Pompey, the Pigs or anyone else. His work since has shown that he's a very competent manager, and he's also a legend. He was a player for Rotherham and Chesterfield in the 60's. He was already a manager when we dropped to Division 4 in 1981. He took Notts County from the old 3rd division to the first, before it was re-named the Premier League. He took the Blades to League Cup and FA Cup semis, a Play Off final and ultimately got us promoted to the top flight after about 30 years languishing in the lower divisions.

Hang on lad, we'd only been out of the top flight for a decade, 30 years is a little far fetched.

 

[Sean Thornton]

The average attendance in Warnock's first half season was 13,700.
In the first 10 matches under Adrian Heath the average attendance was 12,490.
In Warnock's last season it was 30,512.
So he actually increased the average attendance by 18,022.

View attachment 29602

Not eight thousand then?

He took the gate up back to more or less what they were at first, after a poor season and a dreadful start.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

No sour grapes from me and his best fans comments are fine by me, it's what he does. My opinion is about his conduct and management at the latter part of his time with us and his rewriting of history. Legend? Wouldn't argue with him being a club legend but he left a nasty taste at the end as far as I'm concerned.

NW:- "The first thing I did when I arrived was ask the board to build us an academy"

He didn't say he personally "built the academy", he said he asked the board to build us one.
Lo and behold, an academy was built and his brother was put in charge of running it.
What makes you think that Warnock is lying other than your dislike for him? Any evidence he's lying?
Bearing in mind that you've already been proved wrong about him lying about increased attendances.

 

[Dkc]

Hang on lad, we'd only been out of the top flight for a decade, 30 years is a little far fetched.

Ah yes, apart from the 3 seasons under Bassett. Sorry, my big nose-tinted glasses must have led me to airbrush history

 

[Rodley]

Sir Neil of Warnock is the only manager worth talking about since Bassett. Until Wilder he was still the inly one worth a moment's thought. He is a football legend in his own right, but more than that he is one of our legends. The sourgrapes on here towards the lad is mindboggling.

To be fair if you sit back and reflect over the decades of success we're had, you can see why the Warnock years pale into insignificance for some.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Not eight thousand then?

He took the gate up back to more or less what they were at first, after a poor season and a dreadful start.

NW:- "To think when I took over it was 8,000 crowds and when I left it was 25,500 average".

Warnock is wrong and you are wrong.

He doesn't claim we were averaging 8,000, only that there were crowds of 8000.
We had one crowd of 8,965, so he's exaggerated that slightly.

However, he underestimates massively the average attendance when he left which was actually 30,512.
You were pouring scorn on his claim that he increased average attendances by 17,500 when in fact it was 18,022.

 

[Davalon]

I agree totally there. Fans that say he was out of his depth are very harsh. We got 38 points and that was a decent total and would often keep teams up. We also lost Rob Hulse to injury. I may not like Warnocks comments post leaving us but I rate him very highly as a manager.

I have mixed views on NW and we can argue all day about Tevez and January signings.

However I think 38 points has only got you relegated twice since the PL started, and if you compare the appalling key decisions that went against us compared to the one that went for us we deserved a few points undoubtedly.

When you go down by one goal you can't ignore 3 missed penalties but all in all we were unlucky to go down. All things equal we would have stayed up comfortably.

Unfortunately we wasted the opportunity to get back shortly afterwards and overturn that bad fortune. We can only blame ourselves for that.

 

[Davalon]

Ah yes, apart from the 3 seasons under Bassett. Sorry, my big nose-tinted glasses must have led me to airbrush history

Four seasons. Don't do us down mate, we need to hang on to every little bit of glory we can

 

[Sean Thornton]

NW:- "The first thing I did when I arrived was ask the board to build us an academy"

He didn't say he personally "built the academy", he said he asked the board to build us one.
Lo and behold, an academy was built and his brother was put in charge of running it.
What makes you think that Warnock is lying other than your dislike for him? Any evidence he's lying?
Bearing in mind that you've already been proved wrong about him lying about increased attendances.

Well firstly, bearing in mind his 8000 gates quote, do you have any evidence that he actually said that? No.

You haven't proved me wrong. You've been selective with dates and crowds. The season before, which you omitted, was around 17k average I think. When NW came in, he had three big gates, Fulham around Christmas, Man City and Barnsley with big away support. Heath had no such games. Strip those out and there is little if any difference. He actually got less than 10k against Crewe. Your assertion that he raised gates by over 18000 is disingenuous to say the least.

He did increase gates, improved the team and gave us some great moments, I've never said he hasn't, but let's not massage figures to try to prove a nonsense. I could have easily said that the average only went up because we were in the PL, which would have been equally as daft.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

those four were established youth players even before NW came to the club.

Indeed. And nowhere in the article does Warnock claim that they were. Is he now responsible for lazy journalism in addition to everything else pinned on him?

 

[Sean Thornton]

NW:- "To think when I took over it was 8,000 crowds and when I left it was 25,500 average".

Warnock is wrong and you are wrong.

He doesn't claim we were averaging 8,000, only that there were crowds of 8000.
We had one crowd of 8,965, so he's exaggerated that slightly.

However, he underestimates massively the average attendance when he left which was actually 30,512.
You were pouring scorn on his claim that he increased average attendances by 17,500 when in fact it was 18,022.

Crowds. Plural. Are you saying he was correct then about low gates but didn't have a clue about the other end of the scale.

I've dealt with the rest. You've been deliberately selective. It's not a nice trait. The crowds fell for one season and one season only. 17 to 30 is still excellent but it's not 18000.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Indeed. And nowhere in the article does Warnock claim that they were. Is he now responsible for lazy journalism in addition to everything else pinned on him?

Okay. Lazy journalism. It reads Warnock suggesting the new academy was responsible. Bloody reporters, making things up. Neil has never ever exaggerated before then?

Sothall seems to believe the gate bits though so who to believe.

 

[BushBlade]

If I ever find myself discussing the minutiae of a Warnock interview could someone please remind me that I need to re-evaluate my life?

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Of course. But from wanting striker, he spent the money for the future. It makes no sense to me. Make sure we stay up and in theory he's got a £3m start next season. If he didn't buy for that season, did he think we were safe?

Seck and Fathi, on field wise were a disaster. I'm sure he could've found someone better, who could have done a job. I thought at the time, and still do, that the signings were "odd". Very odd indeed, especially as he kept reminding us, his contract hadn't been renewed for the"future".

Seck was brought in on a free transfer. A 27 year old who had played for his country Senegal six times a few years previously.
It was a reasonable gamble to take for little outlay, didn't work out but it wasn't a transfer made for the future and nothing "very odd" about it.

Fathi was a 22 year old Egyptian International who cost us £700K. We later sold him for £675K, so made a small loss of £25K on the deal.
Hull later signed him for £500K and he made 120 appearances for his country.
Again, a reasonable gamble to take on a player who showed undoubted potential and quality before and after his signing.

Both players could be brought in under the Championship wages budget that NW was working with.
Along with others that he signed like Hulse, CKR, Kilgallon, Shelton and Stead
Not an established Premier League player amongst them because those players won't come and play for Championship wages.

It doesn't seem "very odd" to me, more a case of a man working with a low budget and signing Championship players and foreign gambles accordingly.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I have mixed views on NW and we can argue all day about Tevez and January signings.

However I think 38 points has only got you relegated twice since the PL started, and if you compare the appalling key decisions that went against us compared to the one that went for us we deserved a few points undoubtedly.

When you go down by one goal you can't ignore 3 missed penalties but all in all we were unlucky to go down. All things equal we would have stayed up comfortably.

Unfortunately we wasted the opportunity to get back shortly afterwards and overturn that bad fortune. We can only blame ourselves for that.

Well try as I might I'm struggling to blame Warnock totally for our failure to go straight back up. The best I can come up with is that if he hadn't been fucking greedy, we might have had him for another year and no Robson. See, I knew I was right, all his fault

 

[Sean Thornton]

Seck was brought in on a free transfer. A 27 year old who had played for his country Senegal six times a few years previously.
It was a reasonable to gamble to take for little outlay, didn't work out but it wasn't a transfer made for the future and nothing "very odd" about it.

Fathi was a 22 year old Egyptian International who cost us £700K. We later sold him for £675K, so made a small loss of £25K on the deal.
Hull later signed him for £500K and he made 120 appearances for his country.
Again, a reasonable gamble to take on a player who showed undoubted potential and quality before and after his signing.

Both players could be brought in under the Championship wages budget that NW was working with.
Along with others that he signed like Hulse, CKR, Kilgallon, Shelton and Stead
Not an established Premier League player amongst them because those players won't come and play for Championship wages.

It doesn't seem "very odd" to me, more a case of a man working with a low budget and signing Championship players and foreign gambles accordingly.

He was supposedly after Warnock and Nugent and possibly Murphy. But he spent almost three million plus wages on players for a later season, choosing not to strengthen at all for that season. They were his own words "for the future".

I find that odd. Well I don't actually, not at all. I was making a point. Feel free to telle how many times those reasonable signings pulled on a first team shirt.

 

[Dkc]

Blessed are the big noses

 

[CrookesBlade]

Well firstly, bearing in mind his 8000 gates quote, do you have any evidence that he actually said that? No.

You haven't proved me wrong. You've been selective with dates and crowds. The season before, which you omitted, was around 17k average I think. When NW came in, he had three big gates, Fulham around Christmas, Man City and Barnsley with big away support. Heath had no such games. Strip those out and there is little if any difference. He actually got less than 10k against Crewe. Your assertion that he raised gates by over 18000 is disingenuous to say the least.

He did increase gates, improved the team and gave us some great moments, I've never said he hasn't, but let's not massage figures to try to prove a nonsense. I could have easily said that the average only went up because we were in the PL, which would have been equally as daft.

Regardless of opinions on Warnock and going slightly OT I think its interesting that the crowds never really dropped off below 18,000 even at our lowest ebb in the post Warnock years (i.e the Madkins season), especially when you throw in factors like the ever increasing cost of football, stagnating pay packets and the increasing profile of the Premier League.

I seem to recall after relegation 94' but prior to Warnock we never really went much above 18k even when on the verge of the play offs and had Deane, Fjortoft etc in the side.

 

[BushBlade]

He was supposedly after Warnock and Nugent and possibly Murphy. But he spent almost three million plus wages on players for a later season, choosing not to strengthen at all for that season. They were his own words "for the future".

I find that odd. Well I don't actually, not at all. I was making a point. Feel free to telle how many times those reasonable signings pulled on a first team shirt.

Isn't Wilder doing the same with Thomas, Lundstram and Baldock?