Sheffield clubs: The Transfer Policies

[raul]

edited. If you won't listen to Pinchy there's really no point in saying anything.

Where will you be selling these T-Shirts and how much are they?

 

[JJBlade]

They have a guy willing to throw money at it and we don't

That's as simple as it is

For all Wilders talk about sensible budgets and sensible transfer fees he would spend ridiculous amounts of money if he had the backing

What option would he have other than to leave a club who were backing him to the hilt ?

In these circumstances he would pay over the odds

 

[Cerberus Blade]

Morning fellow Blades of the world.

Firstly I apologies for polluting our beautiful forum with a mention of the dark side.. however I feel the need to scope your thoughts on the contrasting transfer policies of the two Sheffield teams.

Wilder has mentioned it several times, that we've clearly adopted this approach to buy the best from the lower leagues. Players whose stock is rising - captains, players of the season, the right age etc. Stearman being the exception.

I look at the transfer activity at Hillsborough. Boyd, to be fair, I still think is a decent player who will likely play a lot of games for them this season. However he fits a mould of players who they have signed who have already peaked and are on their way down, maintaining big contracts:

Fletcher
Jones
Wallace
Hooper & Rhodes - I'd have both, however I'm including these players in this bracket as they've hit the PL and not cut the mustard.
Hutton - linked with them this week, 32 and one of the highest earners at Villa, seemingly willing to let him go.

My point is this. Two clubs, one city. Yet the transfer policies differ greatly. I see them 'spunkin moneh' on big transfers and high wages and yet I feel no jealousy at all. I prefer our approach - in an era where I am growing vastly disillusioned with modern football and daft amounts being spent, what we are doing gives me hope that success can be achieved in this modest way.

Finally I have a sneaky feeling it could implode at Wednesday this season. I saw some comments from Carvalhal in the paper and reading between the lines I don't think they're able to continue with the big transfer fees due to FFP. My opinion is they will fail to make the play-offs this time round. Could well be wrong, hope I'm not!

Thoughts ??

UTB

agree. read something similar a few days ago on here:

http://southyorksfooty.proboards.com/thread/2960/contrasting-approach-2-sheffield-clubs

 

[Sean Thornton]

not you Pinchy , but thats bullshit
changing titles was for financial reasons
is it still swfc ., if not how are they allowed in the league as a "new" club

they are having their cake and eating it

I'm sure, like Pinchy, the legal advisors to Dave Allen, indoor pond diver Richards, Meelan and the Dolphin Killer, were quite sure of the legal position over this when they were getting involved with the club.

Basically the original company held the shares in a subsidiary formed in 1990 and quite legally transferred the assets into that at some point, including membership of the FL/FA/PL whatever.

The only pleasure to be taken from this is that they are only twenty seven years old and have no League title or FA Cup wins to their name as these were won by a separate legal entity.

 

[Sean Thornton]

They have a guy willing to throw money at it and we don't

That's as simple as it is

For all Wilders talk about sensible budgets and sensible transfer fees he would spend ridiculous amounts of money if he had the backing

What option would he have other than to leave a club who were backing him to the hilt ?

In these circumstances he would pay over the odds

Wilder lying #4237

 

[Pinchy]

not you Pinchy , but thats bullshit
changing titles was for financial reasons
is it still swfc ., if not how are they allowed in the league as a "new" club

they are having their cake and eating it

The police can certainly be sued. In the name of the Chief Constable who is vicariously liable for the torts (negligence, civil assaults etc.) of his constables (all officers of any rank are constables). The CC enjoys legal personality as a Corporation Sole (other examples are a Lord Mayor, a Duchy and certain clergy) with the effect that there is a continuity of legal liability.

Limited companies have legal personality too, but criminal and tortious (to keep it simple) liability cannot be passed on from one legal personality to another. There are exceptions (too complicated for present purposes) where changes are a sham for the sole or primary purpose of avoiding legal liability.

Graham Halibut or whatever he was had a personal statutory responsibility as Secretary in relation to the H and S Certificate, hence his prosecution. If any other individuals in Piggy office at the time personally committed offences they too could be prosecuted (subject to time limitations for minor offences). What the law can't do is to prosecute legal person A (be it human or company) for offences alleged against legal person B. Civil liability is slightly different but it's the same basic principle.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Where will you be selling these T-Shirts and how much are they?

Placed the order with Adidas this morning Raul. Due to pre order demand, they've pushed it to the top of their four year olds production run.

I'm afraid our away kit will now make nice Christmas presents.

 

[Pinchy]

Wilder lying #4237

Nothing, absolutely nothing, be it the truth, common sense, reason or sanity, can get in the way of the agenda. It has no limitations.

 

[JJBlade]

Nothing, absolutely nothing, be it the truth, common sense, reason or sanity, can get in the way of the agenda. It has no limitations.

That's not what I said
If unlimited supplies of money were injected into the club Wilder would use it. He'd be shopping at a level that means EVERYBODY is overpaying

 

[elgoog44]

again I quote the tevez response
no mlud wasnt us was the previous board , , no it wasnt it was west ham united

if you could just change the boards make up to get away with previous misdemeanors thered be board changes every month and fiddling across the league

swfc were responsible for crowd safety , just like we are as a club

any deaths should be the responsibility of the club

corporate manslaughter , is undeniable in this case

The police can certainly be sued. In the name of the Chief Constable who is vicariously liable for the torts (negligence, civil assaults etc.) of his constables (all officers of any rank are constables). The CC enjoys legal personality as a Corporation Sole (other examples are a Lord Mayor, a Duchy and certain clergy) with the effect that there is a continuity of legal liability.

Limited companies have legal personality too, but criminal and tortious (to keep it simple) liability cannot be passed on from one legal personality to another. There are exceptions (too complicated for present purposes) where changes are a sham for the sole or primary purpose of avoiding legal liability.

Graham Halibut or whatever he was had a personal statutory responsibility as Secretary in relation to the H and S Certificate, hence his prosecution. If any other individuals in Piggy office at the time personally committed offences they too could be prosecuted (subject to time limitations for minor offences). What the law can't do is to prosecute legal person A (be it human or company) for offences alleged against legal person B. Civil liability is slightly different but it's the same basic principle.

Apologies Pinchy I got you dragged into that as it was me who mentioned the Hillsborough Disaster, however that is a very clear and concise overview of why they cant be held accountable, thanks for that as it helps clear it all up for me and appreciate it..

 

[Sean Thornton]

That's not what I said
If unlimited supplies of money were injected into the club Wilder would use it. He'd be shopping at a level that means EVERYBODY is overpaying

So his "sensible" comments aren't true then, because you KNOW, what he would do.

I'm sure he knows what the budget is. With his stock being so high, I'm shocked he hasn't joined a club with the chance to "overpay" on players and by ridiculous amounts.

Surely there are rich men out there willing to spend unlimited amounts on us. Kev really wants his phone number on 118118 for these folks rather than be ex directory. Or something.

 

[Pinchy]

How come they managed to keep the ground and the training ground? Keep the assets but not the liabilities?

As you might imagine, I have never had anything to do with the Pigs on or off the field. I didn't even know about the change until the recent enquiry.

Subject to the Companies Act (and one has to assume it all was) Company A can transfer assets to a 'successor' company B with or without consideration, just as I can sell or give property to my daughter.

 

[Pinchy]

Apologies Pinchy I got you dragged into that as it was me who mentioned the Hillsborough Disaster, however that is a very clear and concise overview of why they cant be held accountable, thanks for that as it helps clear it all up for me and appreciate it..

Actually I didn't explain it as well as I ought. I didn't make it particularly clear that Limited Companies are not Corporations Sole, which is key to the issue. The Limited in Limited Companies is, as most know, short for Limited Liability. That extends to crime and torts as well as debts. It is a fundamental reason for adopting that trading style.

Thanks for your thanks but it was B-

 

[Sean Thornton]

As you might imagine, I have never had anything to do with the Pigs on or off the field. I didn't even know about the change until the recent enquiry.

Subject to the Companies Act (and one has to assume it all was) Company A can transfer assets to a 'successor' company B with or without consideration, just as I can sell or give property to my daughter.

It was a wholly owned subsidiary I believe. The original company then pretty much acting as a holding company. Mandaric bought the shares of the subsiduary off the original company.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Actually I didn't explain it as well as I ought. I didn't make it particularly clear that Limited Companies are not Corporations Sole, which is key to the issue. The Limited in Limited Companies is, as most know, short for Limited Liability. That extends to crime and torts as well as debts. It is a fundamental reason for adopting that trading style.

Thanks for your thanks but it was B-

Another tshirt here raul ?

 

[Pinchy]

So his "sensible" comments aren't true then, because you KNOW, what he would do.

I'm sure he knows what the budget is. With his stock being so high, I'm shocked he hasn't joined a club with the chance to "overpay" on players and by ridiculous amounts.

Surely there are rich men out there willing to spend unlimited amounts on us. Kev really wants his phone number on 118118 for these folks rather than be ex directory. Or something.

I'm going off Tufty. His Tuftyball is fantastic but his constant demonstrable lies are sucking away all my trust. It's like having a wife who cooks to Michelin standard but shags the gardener.

 

[Pollingtonblade]

So what happens if Kev and the Prince get this investment they're after and we start spending 'big money' are we all to kick off and say no we wish to keep buying scraps?

 

[Pinchy]

Another tshirt here raul ?

The first sentence in quotation marks above a photo of me?

 

[Sean Thornton]

So what happens if Kev and the Prince get this investment they're after and we start spending 'big money' are we all to kick off and say no we wish to keep buying scraps?

We don't have the big money. that's the point. We haven't got any additional investment. The ability to pay big fees isn't there.

Let's get behind Tufty and his team of scraps though.

 

[Pinchy]

So what happens if Kev and the Prince get this investment they're after and we start spending 'big money' are we all to kick off and say no we wish to keep buying scraps?

I should think we rejoice but ask them to be careful we don't become a Portsmouth, Leeds or (I believe time will tell) Pigs. It's make or break for the grunters next season. I've a strong feeling it won't be make.

 

[I should coco]

If unlimited supplies of money were injected into the club Wilder would use it.

Good point, well made.

On a similar theme, if an unlimited number of monkeys, with an unlimited number of typewriters and an unlimited amount of time were put in an (unlimited) room, they would eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare.

Wilder might lie about it, but we would know it to be a truth because the S2 forum board has said it is so.

 

[blade too long]

Your West Ham comments are plain wrong in any event. CEO and in house lawyer Scott Duxbury was with the club throught until Gold Sullivan and Brady kicked him out. His untruths is what cost them the case.

but . the argument was it was a different entity,
that proves personnel changes dont matter surely

 

[raul]

Another tshirt here raul ?

XXL only I suspect Sean.

 

[blade too long]

I'm sure, like Pinchy, the legal advisors to Dave Allen, indoor pond diver Richards, Meelan and the Dolphin Killer, were quite sure of the legal position over this when they were getting involved with the club.

Basically the original company held the shares in a subsidiary formed in 1990 and quite legally transferred the assets into that at some point, including membership of the FL/FA/PL whatever.

The only pleasure to be taken from this is that they are only twenty seven years old and have no League title or FA Cup wins to their name as these were won by a separate legal entity.

tell that to owls fans

 

[Sean Thornton]

but . the argument was it was a different entity,
that proves personnel changes dont matter surely

That wasn't the argument at all. You yourself stated it was a different board. That's not a change in the legal entity of the company. But the man who lied was there throughout.

 

[blade too long]

The police can certainly be sued. In the name of the Chief Constable who is vicariously liable for the torts (negligence, civil assaults etc.) of his constables (all officers of any rank are constables). The CC enjoys legal personality as a Corporation Sole (other examples are a Lord Mayor, a Duchy and certain clergy) with the effect that there is a continuity of legal liability.

Limited companies have legal personality too, but criminal and tortious (to keep it simple) liability cannot be passed on from one legal personality to another. There are exceptions (too complicated for present purposes) where changes are a sham for the sole or primary purpose of avoiding legal liability.

Graham Halibut or whatever he was had a personal statutory responsibility as Secretary in relation to the H and S Certificate, hence his prosecution. If any other individuals in Piggy office at the time personally committed offences they too could be prosecuted (subject to time limitations for minor offences). What the law can't do is to prosecute legal person A (be it human or company) for offences alleged against legal person B. Civil liability is slightly different but it's the same basic principle.

but surely the police have similarly been changed ,
they are under the crime commisioner now a totally different method of rule


and the council like all council can change from labour to lib dem etc

its in your opinion , not changed
but swfc still claim to have won 4 league titles and 3 fa cups despite not being the same entity oh and I believe they had won one league cup more recently . but that was prior to the changes
surely to avoid prosecution they must deny their total past

 

[Sean Thornton]

tell that to owls fans

I have, the ones that don't get angry just look vacant.

 

[yorkshirecoast]

The fact the pigs have so far wasted a lot of money does not alter the fact that in the majority of cases the bigger the budget, the more chance you have of success. Of course there are exceptions but any proper analysis will show a clear link between budget and success.

Wilder has done a great job so far but the pitiful budget he appears to have been given (for a club of our size) will definitely make it more dufficult to keep progressing.

Wilder and new, richer and more ambitious owners would be the ideal scenario.

 

[blade too long]

I have, the ones that don't get angry just look vacant.

and how does that differ from their normal look ?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Good point, well made.

On a similar theme, if an unlimited number of monkeys, with an unlimited number of typewriters and an unlimited amount of time were put in an (unlimited) room, they would eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare.

Wilder might lie about it, but we would know it to be a truth because the S2 forum board has said it is so.

The monkeys possibly could do that. Doubtful they'd come up with JJ's nonsense though......