Will relegation really matter?

[Jim Chimmerney]

To all of the above (Broomers apart !) of course I enjoyed the great days of the past as I did scrappy 1-0 wins against higher opposition but people are picking out odd games in 20 years. When have we consistently played decent football in that period ?

I know I keep harping on about Blackpool and maybe it's because it's been rammed down my throat for the last 12 months or so but they have approached the game under Holloway in a complete different way to the way say Warnock and Blackwell did, which was worry about the opposition first. Yes Blackpool got tanked at Arsenal but they were the better team for the 1st 20 mins until they conceded and got a player wrongly sent off. Chelsea tore them apart for the 1st 30 minutes but they kept trying to attack and play football. They may well go down but I'd much rather we'd attacked our year in the Prem the way they're doing. How often have we seen a Blades team play like they did at Forest in the 2nd leg of the play-offs and again at Wembley ?

OK, Stoke went up 'playing ugly' for want of a better phrase but they're in a minority, invariably, the teams who attack and have that bit of class in certain areas are the ones who succeed. We made it on 06 but Reading were the team that season and were streets ahead of us in all areas of the pitch as it showed the following season.

I'm not decrying what we've achieved over the years, and I'm not saying we haven't had some great seasons, all I'm saying is after 30 odd years I'm fed up of craning my neck to follow the ball and am ready for a change and if there's going to be a 'good football brigade' then put me as Chairman !

 

[Nick Jansky]

To all of the above (Broomers apart !) of course I enjoyed the great days of the past as I did scrappy 1-0 wins against higher opposition but people are picking out odd games in 20 years. When have we consistently played decent football in that period ?

I know I keep harping on about Blackpool and maybe it's because it's been rammed down my throat for the last 12 months or so but they have approached the game under Holloway in a complete different way to the way say Warnock and Blackwell did, which was worry about the opposition first. Yes Blackpool got tanked at Arsenal but they were the better team for the 1st 20 mins until they conceded and got a player wrongly sent off. Chelsea tore them apart for the 1st 30 minutes but they kept trying to attack and play football. They may well go down but I'd much rather we'd attacked our year in the Prem the way they're doing. How often have we seen a Blades team play like they did at Forest in the 2nd leg of the play-offs and again at Wembley ?

OK, Stoke went up 'playing ugly' for want of a better phrase but they're in a minority, invariably, the teams who attack and have that bit of class in certain areas are the ones who succeed. We made it on 06 but Reading were the team that season and were streets ahead of us in all areas of the pitch as it showed the following season.

I'm not decrying what we've achieved over the years, and I'm not saying we haven't had some great seasons, all I'm saying is after 30 odd years I'm fed up of craning my neck to follow the ball and am ready for a change and if there's going to be a 'good football brigade' then put me as Chairman !

I would like to be another member of that brigade, put me down too. I have loathed much of the football I have had to endure over the years at the Lane, and you are right, although there has been the odd great day & performance there have been countless drab, crap wars of attrition, which I don't find remotely exciting or entertaining. In the past I have been embarassed walking away from games, home and away, & hearing the opposition fans say how glad they are about not having to watch that crap every week, and they were right, it was horrible, horrible crap.

Proper football all the way for me, every time.

 

[Ollessendro]

We need to attack more. It was the same under Blackkwell and Speed is still too unconvincd by his squad to go out and try to win matches. But it's not working and he'll have to make changes. Football isn't just either hoof of flowing total football. I think most fans who've excpeted the reality that we've blown our chnaces of near term top flight football, would just like to be entertained every other match. That was definitely not going to happen under Blackwell. The jury is out on Speed who must be afforded much more time given resources and what he's inherited.

Think you've hot the nail on the head here Alco. Speedo is too much a chip of the old Blackwell block in the sense he wants results and would sooner not lose, rather than go for it. We went for it against Derby and were convicncing winners. However against Scunthorpe it backfired. We played some decent stuff, but got punished. Speed seems to have lost his bottle a but since then and has resorted to more Blackwell like tactics. He has been too concerned about the oppostion and not tried to play to our strenghts. That said it is dificult for his, as we don't really have any strenghts. Still, I think fans would appreciate if we really went for it. Never mind sitting back, keeping it tight etc, let's get up and at them from the very first minute. I'd take a few more Scunny results if it got us scoring again. The 1-0 losses where we don't have a meaningful chance are much more demoralising.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

To all of the above (Broomers apart !) of course I enjoyed the great days of the past as I did scrappy 1-0 wins against higher opposition but people are picking out odd games in 20 years. When have we consistently played decent football in that period ?

I know I keep harping on about Blackpool and maybe it's because it's been rammed down my throat for the last 12 months or so but they have approached the game under Holloway in a complete different way to the way say Warnock and Blackwell did, which was worry about the opposition first. Yes Blackpool got tanked at Arsenal but they were the better team for the 1st 20 mins until they conceded and got a player wrongly sent off. Chelsea tore them apart for the 1st 30 minutes but they kept trying to attack and play football. They may well go down but I'd much rather we'd attacked our year in the Prem the way they're doing. How often have we seen a Blades team play like they did at Forest in the 2nd leg of the play-offs and again at Wembley ?

OK, Stoke went up 'playing ugly' for want of a better phrase but they're in a minority, invariably, the teams who attack and have that bit of class in certain areas are the ones who succeed. We made it on 06 but Reading were the team that season and were streets ahead of us in all areas of the pitch as it showed the following season.

I'm not decrying what we've achieved over the years, and I'm not saying we haven't had some great seasons, all I'm saying is after 30 odd years I'm fed up of craning my neck to follow the ball and am ready for a change and if there's going to be a 'good football brigade' then put me as Chairman !

You seem to be making two different points. You want us to play more attacking, exciting football. So do I and so does everyone else! You also want to see us pass the ball through midfield. I don’t really care whether we do that or not. Who decided that’s the only way to play “proper” football?

The most “attacking” side we’ve had in the last 20 odd years was probably Bassett’s team with Deane, Agana and two goalscoring wingers. 171 league goals in two seasons. The most “exciting” side we’ve had was 02-03 with Nuddy’s skill, Tonge’s dribbling, Brown’s shooting, passion, camaraderie, late winners.

Did those teams play “decent” football? Good to watch? Class in certain areas? I would say yes, the “passing football only” brigade would apparently say no it was just “kick and rush” and we have to move away from it.

Heath tried and failed to re-invent us a “passing” team, so did Robson. The football under both was supposed to be “proper” football but was dismal to watch. I just wish Speed would get more attacking, flair players on the pitch, try and outscore the opposition and play to our current strengths.

Our current strengths don’t include knocking the ball around like Brazil and won’t do until he’s allowed to replace half the team. Would that really matter if we were scoring and winning?

 

[Revolution]

Who decided that’s the only way to play “proper” football?

The media (Jonathan Wilson in the Guardian being the prime suspect), and fans of teams like Arsenal who are too recent converts to remember the likes of Ian Wright.

There's a good article in last month's When Satruday Comes about this point, Southall, that's worth a read.

My favourite United seasons are the back to back promotion seasons and I'd take football like that - using wingers, attacking away from home in a 4-2-4 formation - over this tippy tappy 4-5-1 crap any day. Unless you have superb midfielders 1 up front is in my opinion an extremely boring way to play.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

You seem to be making two different points. You want us to play more attacking, exciting football. So do I and so does everyone else! You also want to see us pass the ball through midfield. I don’t really care whether we do that or not. Who decided that’s the only way to play “proper” football?

The most “attacking” side we’ve had in the last 20 odd years was probably Bassett’s team with Deane, Agana and two goalscoring wingers. 171 league goals in two seasons. The most “exciting” side we’ve had was 02-03 with Nuddy’s skill, Tonge’s dribbling, Brown’s shooting, passion, camaraderie, late winners.

Did those teams play “decent” football? Good to watch? Class in certain areas? I would say yes, the “passing football only” brigade would apparently say no it was just “kick and rush” and we have to move away from it.

Heath tried and failed to re-invent us a “passing” team, so did Robson. The football under both was supposed to be “proper” football but was dismal to watch. I just wish Speed would get more attacking, flair players on the pitch, try and outscore the opposition and play to our current strengths.

Our current strengths don’t include knocking the ball around like Brazil and won’t do until he’s allowed to replace half the team. Would that really matter if we were scoring and winning?

The days when we were successful under Bassett were the days when kick and rush was the 'in thing'. Wimbledon went from the 4th to the top division playing it, Charlton got Ireland to the World Cup finals playing it and we did it pretty well. All I'm saying is that football has changed but we haven't. It may take Speed or whoever 2 years to do it but to me it's a change we have to make if we ever going to compete and move on. Just because it's been tried and failed doesn't mean we should forget about it. Heath and Robson were hardly given long were they.

Put it another way, how many times in the last 10 years for example have we come away from games moaning that we've been outpassed and the opposition have been far more attractive to watch even when we've been at home ? I've said elsewhere that 02/03 was as close as we've been but what happened the two seasons after that ?

 

[Sothall_Blade]

All I'm saying is that football has changed but we haven't....it's a change we have to make if we ever going to compete and move on.?

Just because you keep saying it, that doesn't make it true. Stoke and Bolton got promotion and had relative success in The Premiership by playing a similar style to Wimbledon and Ireland which kind of proves that football hasn't really changed and we don't need to change to compete.

Put it another way, how many times in the last 10 years for example have we come away from games moaning that we've been outpassed and the opposition have been far more attractive to watch even when we've been at home ?

I don't come away moaning if the other team has passed it more than us. I might come away moaning if we've played defensively, had no flashes of skill or individual brilliance and failed to create chances and score. "Attractive football" = skill, crosses, chances and goals not just passing for the sake of it.

I've said elsewhere that 02/03 was as close as we've been but what happened the two seasons after that ?

You know what happened, the same as always happens with United. The best players in the team got too old or were sold and not replaced. It was nothing to do with football suddenly changing and "direct" football going out of fashion, as we proved by going up playing the "wrong" way 3 seasons later.

 

[super_pig]

the bigger teams had a problem with hoofball at first but then worked it out.. stop giving away corners and free kicks. that is why not many teams play that style any more.. hoofball is all about field position.. winning set pieces and being able to execute them.. we have noone who can deliver a ball to a high standard.. everyone used to moan about a certain john gannon, but without him the deane/agana team would have been nothing as he took all of the set pieces.. stoke rely on winning throw ins which are more difficult to prevent than free kicks.. when delap goes they will be nothing and pulis knows this which is why he is currently undergoing a conversion process to proper football.. bolton realised this too which is why they changed managers last year.. 'proper' football is better as it relies on a changing point of attack.. the proof of the pudding is in the eating.. all of the top teams play 'proper' football.. you don't have to go and buy lionel messi to implement this style.. there are players at this level who are capable of doing this.. blackpool added adam and with an optimistic go for it attitude are now in the premier league.. we passed up on hoolihan, wellens, adam in the last season or two.. i would suggest a look at woolford (scunthorpe).. we were in the same situation when lord brown joined us and lit the blue touch paper.. the reason he is still held in such regard by blades fans .. even if he has turned into an annoying little shit since

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Stoke and Bolton got promotion and had relative success in The Premiership by playing a similar style to Wimbledon and Ireland which kind of proves that football hasn't really changed and we don't need to change to compete.

So that's two teams in 10 years, kind of proves my point not yours.

Of course there's a happy medium which is why Arsenal are struggling to win the Prem. They can't 'win dirty' when they need to whereas Chelsea and ManU can mix the good stuff with the ugly wins. Who are the better teams in the World Cup, who are the better teams in the Champions League, the ones that pass the ball about with movement and if you think football and footballers haven't moved on in the last 10 years then fine.

 

[raul]

So that's two teams in 10 years, kind of proves my point not yours.

Of course there's a happy medium which is why Arsenal are struggling to win the Prem. They can't 'win dirty' when they need to whereas Chelsea and ManU can mix the good stuff with the ugly wins. Who are the better teams in the World Cup, who are the better teams in the Champions League, the ones that pass the ball about with movement and if you think football and footballers haven't moved on in the last 10 years then fine.

If you're going to start quoting exceptions that prove the rule, you're going to be in big trouble......

How do the Blackpool fans view themselves? I see them as comfortable on the ball, but still wanting to get it forward as quickly as possible. In an ideal world, I'd like us to adopt this best of both approach rather than trying to adhere to a strict philosophy.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

If you're going to start quoting exceptions that prove the rule, you're going to be in big trouble......

How do the Blackpool fans view themselves? I see them as comfortable on the ball, but still wanting to get it forward as quickly as possible. In an ideal world, I'd like us to adopt this best of both approach rather than trying to adhere to a strict philosophy.

Fair enough, I could have listed the dozen teams that have gone up playing exciting passing football

Obviously there's plenty of bandwagoners at Blackpool now but even the fans I know who have been going for donkeys (pardon the pun) are saying this is the best football they've seen since the 70's.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

So that's two teams in 10 years, kind of proves my point not yours. QUOTE]

Ok then before I concede your point, give me your long list of teams that have gone up and stayed up for at least two seasons (like Stoke and Bolton) while being lauded for the beauty of their passing game.

Blackpool? Haven't done it yet
Burnley? No.
West Brom. No.
Reading? Erm no.
Wigan under Paul Jewell? Not really the beautiful game.
Wolves under Mick McCarthy? Pele wouldn't approve etc....

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Ok then before I concede your point, give me your long list of teams that have gone up and stayed up for at least two seasons (like Stoke and Bolton) while being lauded for the beauty of their passing game.

Oh, we're adding little factors like 'staying up for two seasons' now are we For the record, Bolton were never really a long ball team, just a physical, well organised team who got lumped with the 'long ball' tag due to Allardyce and the fact they use Kevin Davies as a target man.

You're well aware of the point I'm trying to make, if you look at the teams who have been promoted from the Chumpionship in the last 10 years or so, the majority have done it with attacking flair and by playing football, not the 'Stoke way'. Now what happens when they get there is a different debate as there's a whole new set of factors thrown in and we know that the odds are pretty much that 2 of the promoted teams come straight back down regardless of how they play.

If you think 'The Stoke Way' is the template we need to look at with the crowd only getting excited when they get a throw-in then fine.

 

[alcoblade]

Oh, we're adding little factors like 'staying up for two seasons' now are we For the record, Bolton were never really a long ball team, just a physical, well organised team who got lumped with the 'long ball' tag due to Allardyce and the fact they use Kevin Davies as a target man.

You're well aware of the point I'm trying to make, if you look at the teams who have been promoted from the Chumpionship in the last 10 years or so, the majority have done it with attacking flair and by playing football, not the 'Stoke way'. Now what happens when they get there is a different debate as there's a whole new set of factors thrown in and we know that the odds are pretty much that 2 of the promoted teams come straight back down regardless of how they play.

If you think 'The Stoke Way' is the template we need to look at with the crowd only getting excited when they get a throw-in then fine.

Turning it on it's head, if long ball was al the rage at some point, who were the teams that flourished? Before Wimbledon I'd never really heard of it. My point is that I don't think football has really changed. The players are of a higher standard, but out and out long ball was always an exception from my recollection.

I have to pick you up on this;

"If you think 'The Stoke Way' is the template we need to look at with the crowd only getting excited when they get a throw-in then fine."......do you really believe that Stoke fans have not been far more excited than the vast majority of football fans outside the big few over the last few years?

I don't disagree with your general point that we should move away from it. I've argued for it myself. But I do believe that football can be played in many ways and be entertaining, and in many ways and be dull as dishwater. Warnock and Blackwell have proved this point.

UTB

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Turning it on it's head, if long ball was al the rage at some point, who were the teams that flourished? Before Wimbledon I'd never really heard of it. My point is that I don't think football has really changed. The players are of a higher standard, but out and out long ball was always an exception from my recollection.

I have to pick you up on this;

"If you think 'The Stoke Way' is the template we need to look at with the crowd only getting excited when they get a throw-in then fine."......do you really believe that Stoke fans have not been far more excited than the vast majority of football fans outside the big few over the last few years?

I don't disagree with your general point that we should move away from it. I've argued for it myself. But I do believe that football can be played in many ways and be entertaining, and in many ways and be dull as dishwater. Warnock and Blackwell have proved this point.

UTB

You can argue all day about what 'long ball' is, generally, the likes of Man U and Chelsea play a long skillful pass, Wimbledon and ourselves play a hopeful long ball ! I'm not stupid enough to say that there's only two ways of playing and that those two ways are easily explained but anyone who's watched us over the last 20-30 years should know what I'm getting at, the difference between Bassett's style and Kendall's, Spackman's and Blackwell's. I'm not saying all can't be exciting, I'm not saying all can or can't be successful, I'd just rather we went the footballing way primarily.

For example, could you see Kozzy pinging those cross field passes Calve has been nailing, 3 in particularly on Saturday. That's not tippy, tappy football, but a skillful pass rather than a hopeful hoof.

 

[JJ Sefton]

But the trouble is, they wouldn't. Cresswell has a big 3 year contract at 31 years old. He's a decent pro but it's doubtful anyone else would take on his contract. Evans is rumoured to be on £20K per week, Ryan France £7K. The list will go on. Which other clubs would take on these contracts? Unfortunately we'd be waiting for contracts to expire. Everything that's saleable has been sold.

UTB

Ive heard that Britton is on about 20k per week

 

[alcoblade]

Ive heard that Britton is on about 20k per week

At least Britton is our best player. Ched is our second worst, pipped by France - both stealing a wage....

UTB

 

[bricktop]

I think it is unfair to start the judgement and the depressing post mortem on this season now. I think Gary Speed needs to be given time and patience to see what he can do for us, and to see how he can put his stamp on the team and the way we play. He is still playing with a different managers team, and he didn't have a full summer and pre-season to work on the team playing to his style of play, and although he was at the club at the coach, it was ultimately Kevin Blackwell's call.

As for the style of football, i like to see us strong and hard to beat before we start beginning to get the ball down and play the pretty football. If we are to start getting stuff out of games then we need to keep clean sheets, its a simple fact that any team who doesn't not concede does not lose.

 

[SwissBlade]

At least Britton is our best player.

He's started ok, but best player? A few well placed passes isn't what i'd call "best player" he's alreight and has potential but has done no more or less than ched has so far this season

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Oh, we're adding little factors like 'staying up for two seasons' now are we For the record, Bolton were never really a long ball team, just a physical, well organised team who got lumped with the 'long ball' tag due to Allardyce and the fact they use Kevin Davies as a target man.

You're well aware of the point I'm trying to make, if you look at the teams who have been promoted from the Chumpionship in the last 10 years or so, the majority have done it with attacking flair and by playing football, not the 'Stoke way'. Now what happens when they get there is a different debate as there's a whole new set of factors thrown in and we know that the odds are pretty much that 2 of the promoted teams come straight back down regardless of how they play.

If you think 'The Stoke Way' is the template we need to look at with the crowd only getting excited when they get a throw-in then fine.

I'll take that answer as "no I can't name many" then. I mentioned staying up for two seasons as it suggests a bit of longevity and saves you the trouble of coming back with the "but they soon got found out playing that way" line. Do the Stoke crowd REALLY only get excited when they have a throw-in? Or is that another myth propagated by the "you must pass to succeed" brigade?

I'd be happy to play the "Bolton way" rather than the "Stoke way" if that means 10 years in the Premiership, four successive top ten finishes, League Cup finals and Uefa (Europa) Cup qualification.

 

[Ollessendro]

He's started ok, but best player? A few well placed passes isn't what i'd call "best player" he's alreight and has potential but has done no more or less than ched has so far this season

who has been better than him this season then Swiss? If you can't name someone, can you name a better footballer at the club?

 

[Bergen Blade]

I think the biggest mistake when trying to change the playing style is thinking slow build ups and possession football is going to bring you enough goals to be successful. If you underestimate the value (or effectiveness) of hitting the opp osition on the break, catching them out when they are trying to go forward you'll struggle getting enough goals. Most goals in football are scored following three or fewer passes within the team, and the biggest thing to learn from that stat is that you should do things quickly when you get a real chance.

I don't think any of the last few Blades managers have put enough emphasis on this.

 

[alcoblade]

he's alreight and has potential but has done no more or less than ched has so far this season

Coming from one of this message boards voices of reason, I could barely keep a straight face whilst reading that. He's looked like a breath of fresh air every time he's played and has got progressively stronger as we've learned how and where to play him. After a season and a third, Ched has continued in the same vein - slow, skill less and positionally grossly naive - and most importantly failing miserably to perform his primary role - to score.

I think you've just had a moment there fella....

UTB

 

[SwissBlade]

who has been better than him this season then Swiss? If you can't name someone, can you name a better footballer at the club?

For me Bartley up until his injury was really starting to impress. Always looked good on the ball, decent in the air and as I said after Leeds away he really started to grow some balls. Really disappointed to see him get injured.

As for better footballer, was that a loaded question?

Most consistent player so far has been Monty. Despite protests by some, Monty has been excellent every game i've seen. Sorry if that disappoints or stirs up another debate, but he's a ball winner, he's won the ball.

Coming from one of this message boards voices of reason, I could barely keep a straight face whilst reading that. He's looked like a breath of fresh air every time he's played and has got progressively stronger as we've learned how and where to play him. After a season and a third, Ched has continued in the same vein - slow, skill less and positionally grossly naive - and most importantly failing miserably to perform his primary role - to score.

I think you've just had a moment there fella....

UTB

Was that a back handed compliment alco?

It all depends which side of the argument you sit. Yes Britton on getting better, but the games I've seen him play he's not yet lived up to his billing. Its not to say I think he's crap, but I don't think he's anywhere near as good as his best form.

I've said on many threads that I think we're weak in midfield. All across the midfield and whilst Britton gets the ball down, is he that effective from sitting just in front of the back 4. Perhaps I'm being unfair on him, perhaps I expect too much, I just don't think he's there yet.

 

[alcoblade]

^^^^^Well actually I'd have to disagree. If we're to change the culture of our club and with it our performances on the pitch, it's Monty who will have to make way. Yes he's won the ball, and I'm a massive fan. But the arrival of Britton shows just how far we've drifted from a true footballing side, if that's what we want to be. Britton was Swansea's Monty, the anchorman (on top of that he's head and shoulders in front in terms of distribution -let's be honest, Monty doesn't). Pratley was the playmaker. Could you imagine us risking that? Yet they were succesful with it and given a decent striker I think they'd have been promoted.

I digress. Britton is a top midfielder and if he doesn't deliver for us it says everything about what we are at the moment and not a lot about him.

UTB

PS it was just a compliment, no backhander....

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

If we're to change the culture of our club and with it our performances on the pitch

Hang on, hang on, are you with me or not

 

[SwissBlade]

^^^^^Well actually I'd have to disagree. If we're to change the culture of our club and with it our performances on the pitch, it's Monty who will have to make way. Yes he's won the ball, and I'm a massive fan. But the arrival of Britton shows just how far we've drifted from a true footballing side, if that's what we want to be. Britton was Swansea's Monty, the anchorman (on top of that he's head and shoulders in front in terms of distribution -let's be honest, Monty doesn't). Pratley was the playmaker. Could you imagine us risking that? Yet they were succesful with it and given a decent striker I think they'd have been promoted.

I digress. Britton is a top midfielder and if he doesn't deliver for us it says everything about what we are at the moment and not a lot about him.

UTB

PS it was just a compliment, no backhander....

Well in a way you're not disagreeing with me entirely as I also want to change the culture of the club, I just didn't mention that. I mentioned the here and now. We're in a transitional period we need a Monty, what we don't need is a Monty and an Ertl on the same pitch, for me the pair don't work. We need 4-4-2 at home, with wingers who can deliver the ball into the box.

Whilst Swansea played pretty football, they didn't have much fight about them. I thought that was their problem.

Monty can't be compared to Britton in the same role as they did/ do completely different jobs. There is a place for both. Personally I'd prefer to see Britton used further up the field and let Monty sit deep to cut up play. Or at least see them swap around if needed.

Monty can play the deep and the advanced ball winner role, but can Britton play the advanced role?

 

[BarcaBlade]

Oh bugger. Must pay more attention. I was still hoping to get into the play offs and was organizing my 2011 schedule around a glorious trip to Wembley...