Wilder's biggest test

[bertieblade]

Most of the time....? So how did we finish 3rd then

We were very lucky at the start of the season as we had Souter who not only played v well but organised our defence.
Since he was injured we have conceded more goals.
We have only really dominated one team, Coventry and we did that by getting on the front foot, it worked as we have good quality forward players. But like all forward and attacking midfield players they thrive on space in front of them, unfortunately we are generally too slow to exploit this.
The games we have won have been usually by one goal and usually down to a piece of individual brilliance and then hanging on at the end. How many games has Wilder put defensive substitutes on for the last ten / fifteen minutes as his style of football has not been good enough to score more goals to put the opposition to bed and subsequently relies on hanging on?

Yes Wilder has done ok, we have won matches, but :——
We have rarely dominated a game.
We have rarely created more chances than the opposition,
We have rarely felt relaxed in the last ten / fifteen minutes of a match knowing we were in control.
We have not made the best use of players in their correct positions and used substitutes to create as opposed to nullify.
In short it has been bloody hard work

 

[Frank the tank]

We were very lucky at the start of the season as we had souttar

Stopped reading here

 

[bertieblade]

Stopped reading here

Ok who has replaced him and who is responsible for organising our defence?
Intrigued to know if you have sat through the last ten / fifteen minutes of most of our matches relaxed in the knowledge that Wilders tactics and style of play had ensured that we could comfortably see the game out?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Stopped reading here

Wondered why he mentioned an Indian guitar?

Bertie’s post was pretty accurate.

 

[Frank the tank]

Wondered why he mentioned an Indian guitar?

Bertie’s post was pretty accurate.

Yeah it was extremely lucky to have a defender who was good fancy that

 

[100% part time blade]

The idea that the manager is this extraordinarily huge factor in a club’s success or failure just seems very exaggerated to me.
The manager’s position is one factor - often arguably a small factor - in a club’s success or failure.
Hecky made this point in what I though was a very sensible interview once, about the enormous team that contributes to success (scouting network, academy coaches, transfer negotiators, medical team, strategic planning board members, first team coaches, sports psychologists, every member of playing staff … and more), and conversely how any of those not doing their job properly, will probably mean the 1st team manager is fired.

The manager’s position can make a contributory improvement (as Wilder did in League 1), but was Adkins’ success at Southampton due to the incredible difference he made, or the players he found himself with there? Was it Hecky’s brilliance that got us promoted or Ndiaye’s? And who should be credited with Ndiaye’s rise to star player? Hecky? Youth team scouts? Academy coaches? The board? Or Ndiaye himself?

The truth in my view is that most managers don’t make that much difference - if Scott Parker and Daniel Farke had been at Blackburn and Millwall this season, does anybody seriously believe they would have taken those two clubs up?
If Hecky had got the Burnley job, is there reason to suppose they wouldn’t have got promoted?

Fans of virtually every club demand the sacking of their manager most of the time. I guarantee there will be Burnley message boards from this season moaning about Parker during all their frustrating nil- nils. And I’m sure Leeds will have been yelling that Farke should be sacked every time they slipped into 2nd or 3rd! If clubs actually did it every time, we’d all be appointing each others’ managers about once a month, then being shocked and amazed that it’s almost exactly the same as it was under the last guy!

Directors sack managers because it’s a fairly easy, relatively inexpensive way to change something - in the hope it makes something different happen. Some directors / owners do this repeatedly and don’t actually fundamentally do anything else to improve the football club - unsurprisingly it doesn’t work, and the instability brings failure more often than not.

I get why people are disappointed. But if we get into a cycle of sack the manager, sack the next manager, sack him as well quick, then I don’t see a positive future ahead. The new owners need to consider everything: development of the Cat 1 academy, scouting network and systematic identification of targets, recruitment and transfer negotiation strategies, long-term vision, playing staff, and - calmly and collectively - manager’s position.
The last one should be changed when a suitable replacement has been lined up and is ready to go, when the change is most likely to provide long-term success, and done in a way that provides good value financially and maintains the club’s reputation as a well-run outfit.

Basically, I don’t think sacking a manager a few days before the play-offs and giving the job to anyone who’s currently available is a suggestion that anyone should even give a moment’s consideration to.

 

[bertieblade]

Yeah it was extremely lucky to have a defender who was good fancy that

The point being, he has never been replaced, fancy that!

 

[Sean Thornton]

Yeah it was extremely lucky to have a defender who was good fancy that

You’d think replacing someone that good would be a priority.

 

[Frank the tank]

The point being, he has never been replaced, fancy that!

Why was it lucky that he was good
Can't you give wilder credit for doing something right or was it just a fluke.?

And all the bad things like us not playing well except for one game are his fault
But souttar being good at his job for half a season is totally responsible for us being 3rd

 

[JJBlade]

He'll be okay if we don't go up, he'll get what he's a bit better at, the opportunity to manage players who aren't that good.

 

[Tarqs]

agree. I hate Scott Parkers brand of football. Cheating, falling over, trying to get opponents booked. Negative rear guard defensive football. Totally alien to the United way. Yes, they have achieved promotion, but only because we seemed to run out of steam. Much prefer front foot attacking style football it has its downfalls from time to time, sloppy goals conceded, but far more entertaining. If Burnley continue the same next season, they will be the whipping boys and hopefully VAR will find them out for cheating. How many times yesterday did we see them dive? How many times did they run up to the ref asking for yellows? That is a bookable offence it itself, ask Vini. Poor refereeing imo.

I completely agree...

How many games have we played front foot attacking football this season? I'm going with 5/6 out of 44 matches.

 

[Frank the tank]

You’d think replacing someone that good would be a priority.

Absolutely you would
But my original point before you jumped into defend your mate was how have we finished 3rd when we have been so shit
As Bertie’s had stated so categorically in his previous post ?

Souttar not being replaced doesn't explain why a team that is shit finished 3rd
It surely is more reason not to

 

[Nick Jansky]

Why was it lucky that he was good
Can't you give wilder credit for doing something right or was it just a fluke.?

It was a major mistake not replacing Souttar no matter how you dress it up. It’s not even arguable. At this point you’ve become a parody, Frank, which is a shame. You used to make sensible posts. You seem to have lost the plot over the last few weeks.

 

[Carlton Blade]

I'd be quite happy if our best manager in the past 30 years is still here next season. He's certainly over-performed this season regardless of the outcome of the play-offs,

Time and time again we've got rid of a decent manager in the belief that we can get someone 'better'. Time and time again it's been a step backwards.

Get rid of Porterfield, get Billy McEwan instead. Get rid of Warnock, get Brian Robson in. Sack Danny Wilson, get David Weir in. Get rid of Clough, get Adkins in. Each time we thought things would be better under the new guy. They weren't.

As I've said before, fans today seem to want change if we don't win every game. They come out with personal abuse of decent players and a very good manager. They want a change whenever there's a bad result.

Of course we're a work in progress and mistakes have been made in selection and tactics. But we've out-performed 21 teams in the division this season. And in other seasons our points tally would have given us an automatic place.

I fear for the future of the club if an obviously excellent management team is deemed 'not good enough' for the Blades because we only finish 3rd out of 23 teams in arguably the most competitive division in the world.

I think the 3rd best squad is finishing 3rd. It's a par season.

The other seasons are irrelevant. There were more competent teams so the teams at the toplist more games.

Not saying he should be fired because of results. Just disagree that this is an overperformance

 

[Sean Thornton]

Why was it lucky that he was good
Can't you give wilder credit for doing something right or was it just a fluke.?

And all the bad things like us not playing well except for one game are his fault
But souttar being good at his job for half a season is totally responsible for us being 3rd

Surely he meant lucky as he was playing so well we were that much stronger in defence enabling us to rely more on the attacking tactics rather than any dig at CW being lucky in signing him?

 

[Nick Jansky]

Surely he meant lucky as he was playing so well we were that much stronger in defence enabling us to rely more on the attacking tactics rather than any dig at CW being lucky in signing him?

That’s how I read it.

 

[Tarqs]

How many time have we heard this? It is absolutely not true.

When we are chasing a game we often change tactics. We have players on the bench who are there to defend, and players who are there to attack. Substitutions are made and formations are tweaked. Of course we are flexible in our tactics and formations. Wilder is a lot more willing to make substitutions early in the second half if things aren't going to plan. More than eg PH who often left it until the 80th minute before making a change.

There is a lot of lazy criticism of CW that doesn't stand up to scruitiny. 'No plan B' is one of them. Do people really think that CW / AK never discuss changes in tactics and formation if we are chasing a game?

There are valid criticisms of Wilder. 'No Plan B' isn't one of them. Neither is 'busted flush'.

The number of goals we've scored in the last 20 mins of a game is alarming.

Doesn't matter if we're ahead, or behind, we create barely anything in the last 20 mins of a match.

Aside from a 3 game period where we scored 4 goals, we've scored 5 goals after the 70th minute in the remaining 41 matches - that's mental.

We've conceded 15 in that same period.

 

[Frank the tank]

It was a major mistake not replacing Souttar no matter how you dress it up. It’s not even arguable. At this point you’ve become a parody, Frank, which is a shame. You used to make sensible posts. You seem to have lost the plot over the last few weeks.

I think the 3rd best squad is finishing 3rd. It's a par season.

The other seasons are irrelevant. There were more competent teams so the teams at the toplist more games.

Not saying he should be fired because of results. Just disagree that this is an overperformance

Surely he meant lucky as he was playing so well we were that much stronger in defence enabling us to rely more on the attacking tactics rather than any dig at CW being lucky in signing him?

That’s how I read it.

So my question of how we managed to finish 3rd if we were so shit is because.... Souttar played well for half a season
.... Luckily.

OK I am. Definitely missing something but I am willing to. Concede to the majority

 

[Carlton Blade]

So my question of how we managed to finish 3rd if we were so shit is because.... Souttar played well for half a season
.... Luckily.

OK I am. Definitely missing something but I am willing to. Concede to the majority

Where did I say we were shit?

 

[Frank the tank]

Where did I say we were shit?

Sorry quoted you by accident

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

See, I'm torn on Wilder...

On the one hand, his biggest flaw is that he gets grumpy, rigid in his mindset, determined to prove that he is right and incredibly inflexible, tactically. He hates being questioned, to the point of almost sabotaging us.

I just wish he'd have that added bit of humility and introspection. Because, on the other hand, I can think of no one better to lead us into the Playoffs. He wants this as much as we all do, because it's his club and he'd fight tooth and nail for this club. I think that's why he gets so rigid if we criticise him, because he perceives that his own lot are having a pop at him.

Oh, and I just wish we'd take the handbrake off a bit and attack teams. He's masterminded some brilliant attacking football for us over the years and he has the squad capable of it.

We need resilient, defiant, fighting (but not stubborn) Wilder to turn up.

 

[Nick Jansky]

We need resilient, defiant, fighting (but not stubborn) Wilder to turn up.

I would say we need clear headed Wilder who’s in control of his emotions.

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

I would say we need clear headed Wilder who’s in control of his emotions.

The two aren't too far apart.

 

[100% part time blade]

It was a major mistake not replacing Souttar no matter how you dress it up. It’s not even arguable. At this point you’ve become a parody, Frank, which is a shame. You used to make sensible posts. You seem to have lost the plot over the last few weeks.

Whose mistake was it?

 

[GEARYstolemyBEER]

Just seen this on twitter, hopefully lights a fire in him get us up…

 

[Champagneblade]

CW needs to forget this 90 points thing. Rest the players he has to, keep Hamer from getting more bookings.

There’s no reason why both can’t be achieved.

He has depth in the squad. It’s Stoke and. Blackburn.

Stoke just got pasted 6-0 and we’re gifting chances at every given moment. Whatever strike force he goes with should be very good compared to their defence.

We’ve got a much of a muchness in quite a few positions and some players need games rather than rest.

 

[bornablade]

The idea that the manager is this extraordinarily huge factor in a club’s success or failure just seems very exaggerated to me.
The manager’s position is one factor - often arguably a small factor - in a club’s success or failure.
Hecky made this point in what I though was a very sensible interview once, about the enormous team that contributes to success (scouting network, academy coaches, transfer negotiators, medical team, strategic planning board members, first team coaches, sports psychologists, every member of playing staff … and more), and conversely how any of those not doing their job properly, will probably mean the 1st team manager is fired.

The manager’s position can make a contributory improvement (as Wilder did in League 1), but was Adkins’ success at Southampton due to the incredible difference he made, or the players he found himself with there? Was it Hecky’s brilliance that got us promoted or Ndiaye’s? And who should be credited with Ndiaye’s rise to star player? Hecky? Youth team scouts? Academy coaches? The board? Or Ndiaye himself?

The truth in my view is that most managers don’t make that much difference - if Scott Parker and Daniel Farke had been at Blackburn and Millwall this season, does anybody seriously believe they would have taken those two clubs up?
If Hecky had got the Burnley job, is there reason to suppose they wouldn’t have got promoted?

Fans of virtually every club demand the sacking of their manager most of the time. I guarantee there will be Burnley message boards from this season moaning about Parker during all their frustrating nil- nils. And I’m sure Leeds will have been yelling that Farke should be sacked every time they slipped into 2nd or 3rd! If clubs actually did it every time, we’d all be appointing each others’ managers about once a month, then being shocked and amazed that it’s almost exactly the same as it was under the last guy!

Directors sack managers because it’s a fairly easy, relatively inexpensive way to change something - in the hope it makes something different happen. Some directors / owners do this repeatedly and don’t actually fundamentally do anything else to improve the football club - unsurprisingly it doesn’t work, and the instability brings failure more often than not.

I get why people are disappointed. But if we get into a cycle of sack the manager, sack the next manager, sack him as well quick, then I don’t see a positive future ahead. The new owners need to consider everything: development of the Cat 1 academy, scouting network and systematic identification of targets, recruitment and transfer negotiation strategies, long-term vision, playing staff, and - calmly and collectively - manager’s position.
The last one should be changed when a suitable replacement has been lined up and is ready to go, when the change is most likely to provide long-term success, and done in a way that provides good value financially and maintains the club’s reputation as a well-run outfit.

Basically, I don’t think sacking a manager a few days before the play-offs and giving the job to anyone who’s currently available is a suggestion that anyone should even give a moment’s consideration to.

Some good points there.

However a new manager generally has the authority to appoint his own backroom staff. With that privileged authority there has to be a balanced sense of responsibility.

If one (or more) of those backroom staff are not performing then its down to the manager to make them perform (or get rid) as after all they were the ones he appointed or certainly accepted them as part of the club.

Chris Wilder has often remarked he has his fingerprints all over the club. That freedom comes with accountability. I am not in the 'Sack Wilder' camp, the jury's still out as far as I am concerned but Hecky's summary (if applied to SUFC at present) is a little swayed in favour of the manager.

I agree the owners need to be calm and collective in their assessment of the club and team's performance since they arrived. The only message we've received from them is 'we want to make SUFC an established Premier league club'. Objectives generally need to be time-based. They haven't revealed any time frame apart from giving Wilder a 3 year contract.

The development of the Cat 1 academy and a creating a long term vision (as you quite correctly mention) added to the 3 year contract makes me believe Chris Wilder's job is safe.

We are all a little bit raw following the 3 consecutive defeats and Monday evening. We want promotion. So do the owners but as we stand at present they may see a chance of promotion via the play-offs as a successful season.

 

[Houston_Blade]

I've watched every game this season. We're constantly trying new set-pieces, unexpected passes, very fast moves, combinations to create openings. Most of the time you can see what we're trying to do, and sometimes it works. We sometimes play the unexpected ball with pace through the middle, which has the chance of giving us a one-on-one. The interplay on the wings outside the opposition box is often very good to watch, with players switching positions and interchanging passes. This often results in releasing a man close to the goal-line. Our fast switching from defence to attack can be fantastic to watch. Sometimes it fails but you always know the intention. It can be laborious to break down solid defences but our players are always making runs off the ball, creating space for a pass. And our finishing is often top draw, Campbell, BBD and Hamer especially.

But yeah, the only think that Wilder and Knill say to the players in training is 'give it to Gus'.

There’s sticking up for Wilder and then there’s just pure delusion. You must be the only one to have seen all of the things you’ve mentioned so you’re either a visionary, capable of seeing things us mere mortals can’t, or just plain making stuff up to try and make a point.

 

[Houston_Blade]

But most of the time the keeper does not have a safe to make as we do not create chances.
Oxford and Plymouth should have been taken to the cleaners as they have conceded more than most in the division but we created very few chances, which unfortunately blows your theories out of the water.
All for giving praise where it is due but unfortunately, Wilders slow laborious methods enable the opposition to get back to their positions, have a chat, cup of coffee and needless to say watch as we play all our football in front of them and create bil nil

You’d hope that with such a free flowing and creative side that we’ll easily put 6 past Stoke in the upcoming game. Let’s see if we do shall we?!

 

[The Vicar]

You have to consider the mental scars of last season,

WHAT…….Mental scars my Cruxifix! They get paid £1000,s a week, train a few hours a day, live celebrity lives in their local area, and you say get mental scars?

12 hours on shifts, working nights, minimum wage, down the pit, under a vehicle, etc, etc, don’t patronise me. The little darlings live in pampered bubbles attracting all the attractive groupies who want to snag a money tree.

Mental scars are what my father had after running up a beach on D Day with real bullets being fired at him and friends dropping around him.