Why would Premier League punish Forest for being big club again?

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finlaytheblade said:
I don't like the way Americans do things in general but ! They do have a system that works in some sports.
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And yet supposedly in a level playing field you still have teams in each sport - NBA, NFL, NHL who are always there or there abouts. The idea in US sports is they dont want teams to dominate - tell that to New England who have dominated the NFL until recently, or the Lakers or Warriors in NBA. Despite every effort in US to make sports fair, owners still play a big role and the salary caps are always fair game to be manipulated - see the recent Todd Boehly effort in Los Angeles
 
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FATTYFOULKE said:
What worries me is they pee of to a super league but try to field a second string in what’s left.

No. We should tell them to go but that’s it. Totally out and they will never be re-admitted back.

I would love to see this happen. A league without City, Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool.

I actually think that would be better for all the clubs left and re-invigorate football in this country.
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It would completely kill the top level domestic game for me, knowing that every single title winner effectively has an asterisk against their name in the history books as they're not ever playing against the best clubs in their country. Would probably end up watching even more non-league than I do now
 
Is the super league not just a Champions League alternative? the teams would still be in the PL wouldn’t they?
 
jt64 said:
It would completely kill the top level domestic game for me, knowing that every single title winner effectively has an asterisk against their name in the history books as they're not ever playing against the best clubs in their country. Would probably end up watching even more non-league than I do now
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But they’d probably be playing second string sides, saving their top players for the super league so any titles would be devalued anyway.
 
Selly said:
The issue for me was, for an impartial journalist, he let his West ham supporting colours come through.

And in doing so started throwing mud at the wronged party via the "Steve Kabba" argument etc. Conveniently forgetting that his club did some thing wrong, lied repeatedly about it, and then did everything in their power to make the decision as difficult as possible for the commission.

There aren`t many more obvious instanced of blatant cheating in the PL era (ongoing FFP cases notwithstanding), and the party responsible wasn`t really punished.
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West Ham at the time completely got 'away' with it because its not fair on their fans...................................what?
 
Melbourne Blade said:
I don't think Samuels fully understands the theory of FFP. However, it pains me to say his team West Ham are a "relatively" financially well run club and managed to reduce overall debt compared to other clubs.
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I think West Ham were given a golden ticket when they got the Olympic stadium for peanuts
not relatively well run just fell on their feet

The total cost of building, stripping back and then transforming the Olympic Stadium in to a new home for West Ham football club has broken the £700million barrier
west ham paid 15m pounds and 2.5 m a year
 
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I did read this despite my less than positive opinion of the greasy fat cunt Samuel. FFP was introduced solely to protect the perceived “big clubs”. However, money and corporate interests have totally rotted sport (motor racing being a prime example) and encouraging more rich owners to chuck money in to solve problems is only going to make things worse.
 
nopigfansintown said:
Cretins like Samuel tie themselves in knots with their hypocrisy. They preach 'fiscal responsibility' and in the next champion 'having a go'. Football clubs are part of an ecosystem. If one club 'has a go' it impacts the whole football league. Players wages, bonuses, contract expectations. No club is an island.

You'll never hear these hypocrites calling for a draft system or wage caps or some other form of marked egalitarianism. The easiest thing to do, after all, is share the wealth equally in the prem and then we can all 'have a go'.Or give us all a budget of say 50% of the poorest club in the league's revenue. Problem solved.

The goal of these mouthpieces is the same as the EPL and government: to maintain the league's preeminence as this huge global revenue generator. At ANY cost to the fans, the sustainability of clubs or the greater good of the game. The "best league in the world TM". Until they propose huge structural changes, opinions like Samuel's are hot air.

What the league does worry about is a lack of competition that is so distinct that it eventually undermines the "greatest league in the world's" sales pitch. It's not hard to see why. Forest are a cautionary tale, not a model to support or wish to emulate.
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Spot on. Especially the ecosystem point.

Supporting Bristol City I am familiar with the Championship moreso. Beside the obvious Parachute clubs I'd say Stoke are or have been quite destabilising- their Covid writeoffs were adjusted for income basically similar to Everton..£56m set against £90m or so in revenue.

That's absurd by any measure given they were still a Parachute club and given some £40-41m transfer market related even worse!

Now my club Bristol City we fluctuate in respect of stability v splurge..we seem to be 2-3 years now tighter budget wise etc, downsizing..but the Championship as z whole has gone up a gear. During and 2 years after Covid the financial picture seemed to be settling down, sane actually!

Summer 2023...Coventry and Stoke especially these 2, then Birmingham all spent well. Hull post the Allams have been spending with gusto..and their owner would spend more still given half a chance! He as I recall 8 months in there on Talksport:

*Proclaimed he has trebled the wage bill or average pay of their players. In 8 months!!
*Said he would spend more but for spending rules.
*Questioned Parachute Payments in respect of FFP..perhaps wanted to spend to keep up with them.
*Spoke of FFP being greater consideration. They'd sold KLP for £15-20m that summer, Allams maintained austerity for years shouldn't even have been a factor.

Characters like him can destabilise a whole division.

He also said he didn't mind throwing money away as he used to be poor.

Preston for them seemed to be spending a certain amount, Millwall too. Btw Blackburn, Millwall, Preston losing £15-20m or above In a season is ridiculous given their turnovers.
 
May have misunderstood the last part but FFP..

1) £13m x 3 in any 3 year cycle, rolling in Championship. If your adjusted loss exceeds £39m after allowables in 3 years sanctions it is.
2) £35m x 3 in any 3 year cycle, rolling in PL. Therefore as above but £105m.
3) 2 years in PL, 1 in Championship..£35m, £35m, £13m=£83m.
4) 2 years in Championship, 1 in PL..£13m, £13m, £35m=£61m.

Covid complicated it in as much as you add the 2 Covid years of 2019-20 and 2020-21 and halve, the average. For the Upper Loss limit it us add the 4 Upper Loss limit, divide by 4 and x 3...if you're in the same division for all 4 years don't bother but beyond..

A) 3 PL, 1 Championship in whatever order.. £35m, £13m, £35m, £35m..£118m/4 x 3=£88.5m plus Covid losses plus Allowables.
B) 2 PL, 2 Championship..fairly easy £72m plus Allowables.
C) Seen it suggested it could be £61m if it is 3 and 1 of Championship and PL but one method I saw was the add 4_
/4 x 3 so £55.5m.

Pertinent in respect of whether Nottingham Forest judged on £61m or £55.5m...£13m + £13m/2 + £13m + £35m=£61m or the aggregate, divide by 4 x 3.
 
Just heard a forest fan on 5 Live discussing their PSR charges. Apparently it’s “unfair” that they’re being punished for choosing to keep Johnson until summer and sell him then, rather than accept accept a £30m bid in January (which would have fallen within the relevant PSR period).

It’s also argued that they had “no choice” but to spend big upon promotion given the state of their squad.

The degree of partisan cluelessness is at 2007 levels again. The fact football is financially loaded in favour of established clubs is a different question to whether Forest are innocent or guilty of the rules everyone agreed to operate by.

They are plainly guilty. They chose to break the rules to limit risk of relegation. Now suck it up.
 
JohnDenver said:
Just heard a forest fan on 5 Live discussing their PSR charges. Apparently it’s “unfair” that they’re being punished for choosing to keep Johnson until summer and sell him then, rather than accept accept a £30m bid in January (which would have fallen within the relevant PSR period).

It’s also argued that they had “no choice” but to spend big upon promotion given the state of their squad.

The degree of partisan cluelessness is at 2007 levels again. The fact football is financially loaded in favour of established clubs is a different question to whether Forest are innocent or guilty of the rules everyone agreed to operate by.

They are plainly guilty. They chose to break the rules to limit risk of relegation. Now suck it up.
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What about that Everton woman claiming they didn't get any sporting benefit from breaking the rules because they were in relegation fights and nobody picked her up to say well, you stayed up,that was the sporting benefit,
 
JohnDenver said:
It’s also argued that they had “no choice” but to spend big upon promotion given the state of their squad.

The degree of partisan cluelessness is at 2007 levels again……. innocent or guilty of the rules everyone agreed to operate by.

They are plainly guilty. They chose to break the rules to limit risk of relegation. Now suck it up.
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💯

Whingers should be bearing this in mind when bleating on about PA not spunkin money Willy nilly

There would be a lovely dollop of irony if us and Luton, who have invested sensibly, were to stay up at the expense of 2teams who haven’t spent responsibly been docked points and go down 🙏
 
Apparently they owe agents substantial amounts of money and could face legal action
 

CityInPeace said:
Spot on. Especially the ecosystem point.

Supporting Bristol City I am familiar with the Championship moreso. Beside the obvious Parachute clubs I'd say Stoke are or have been quite destabilising- their Covid writeoffs were adjusted for income basically similar to Everton..£56m set against £90m or so in revenue.

That's absurd by any measure given they were still a Parachute club and given some £40-41m transfer market related even worse!

Now my club Bristol City we fluctuate in respect of stability v splurge..we seem to be 2-3 years now tighter budget wise etc, downsizing..but the Championship as z whole has gone up a gear. During and 2 years after Covid the financial picture seemed to be settling down, sane actually!

Summer 2023...Coventry and Stoke especially these 2, then Birmingham all spent well. Hull post the Allams have been spending with gusto..and their owner would spend more still given half a chance! He as I recall 8 months in there on Talksport:

*Proclaimed he has trebled the wage bill or average pay of their players. In 8 months!!
*Said he would spend more but for spending rules.
*Questioned Parachute Payments in respect of FFP..perhaps wanted to spend to keep up with them.
*Spoke of FFP being greater consideration. They'd sold KLP for £15-20m that summer, Allams maintained austerity for years shouldn't even have been a factor.

Characters like him can destabilise a whole division.

He also said he didn't mind throwing money away as he used to be poor.

Preston for them seemed to be spending a certain amount, Millwall too. Btw Blackburn, Millwall, Preston losing £15-20m or above In a season is ridiculous given their turnovers.
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The Championship is less predictable despite parachute payments. There always seems to be a Luton / Ipswich / Coventry up there challenging the teams relegated from the PL. 'Big' clubs like Sunderland, Derby, pigs are regularly relegated. It's a more exciting league as a result. But I think it's harder for promoted teams to survive in the PL today, as the standard is so high. Forest needed to 'go for it' ie replace their entire team to stand a chance of survival. Forest spent money that Luton and us could only dream of.

Currently in the PL, unless you're one of the Manc clubs, Liverpool, Newcastle, Chelsea, Spurs or Arsenal, your main ambition is to avoid relegation. The biggest success you can realistically expect is to qualify for the Europa or Conference Leagues. It's not a lot of fun to watch your team be outclassed every week, but that's what most promoted clubs can look forward to.

For me, it's best to see promotion from the Championship as a big financial reward that will keep the club competitive in the 2nd tier, plus a season in the global limelight. Anything else is a bonus. To supporters of clubs like ours it's a problem, but the PL doesn't care as long as the money keeps rolling in.
 
Dkc said:
The Championship is less predictable despite parachute payments. There always seems to be a Luton / Ipswich / Coventry up there challenging the teams relegated from the PL. 'Big' clubs like Sunderland, Derby, pigs are regularly relegated. It's a more exciting league as a result. But I think it's harder for promoted teams to survive in the PL today, as the standard is so high. Forest needed to 'go for it' ie replace their entire team to stand a chance of survival. Forest spent money that Luton and us could only dream of.

Currently in the PL, unless you're one of the Manc clubs, Liverpool, Newcastle, Chelsea, Spurs or Arsenal, your main ambition is to avoid relegation. The biggest success you can realistically expect is to qualify for the Europa or Conference Leagues. It's not a lot of fun to watch your team be outclassed every week, but that's what most promoted clubs can look forward to.

For me, it's best to see promotion from the Championship as a big financial reward that will keep the club competitive in the 2nd tier, plus a season in the global limelight. Anything else is a bonus. To supporters of clubs like ours it's a problem, but the PL doesn't care as long as the money keeps rolling in.
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The problem with the bit i have bolded (and I largely agree with you) is that you end up in a cycle of boom or bust.

And even in a boom year, a bust year follows (as we are seeing this year). Fail to get promoted and the whole club is at risk (unless you do it like we have and simply bank the cash).

Fact is that clubs shouldn`t have to risk everything to have a chance at being competitive - and the issue here isn't so much the big 6/8 - its that even the clubs from 9-17 have been in the PL for years and have squads that would walk into our first team - clubs like Forest didn`t need to replace their whole squad to compete with Liverpool - they needed to do it to compete with Everton/Palace/Fulham.

The beauty of sport is its unpredictability - the PL is becoming horrendously predictable, especially at the foot of the table.

I can`t see us staying up this season, but if we have a chance its points deductions for teams above us - and if they have broken the rules the ONLY sanction that makes sense is points - it was true in 2007 and its true now.
 
CityInPeace said:
May have misunderstood the last part but FFP..

1) £13m x 3 in any 3 year cycle, rolling in Championship. If your adjusted loss exceeds £39m after allowables in 3 years sanctions it is.
2) £35m x 3 in any 3 year cycle, rolling in PL. Therefore as above but £105m.
3) 2 years in PL, 1 in Championship..£35m, £35m, £13m=£83m.
4) 2 years in Championship, 1 in PL..£13m, £13m, £35m=£61m.

Covid complicated it in as much as you add the 2 Covid years of 2019-20 and 2020-21 and halve, the average. For the Upper Loss limit it us add the 4 Upper Loss limit, divide by 4 and x 3...if you're in the same division for all 4 years don't bother but beyond..

A) 3 PL, 1 Championship in whatever order.. £35m, £13m, £35m, £35m..£118m/4 x 3=£88.5m plus Covid losses plus Allowables.
B) 2 PL, 2 Championship..fairly easy £72m plus Allowables.
C) Seen it suggested it could be £61m if it is 3 and 1 of Championship and PL but one method I saw was the add 4_
/4 x 3 so £55.5m.

Pertinent in respect of whether Nottingham Forest judged on £61m or £55.5m...£13m + £13m/2 + £13m + £35m=£61m or the aggregate, divide by 4 x 3.
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simples

its all about a 3 year loss , nothing else
they put in their accounts and if its over then under the new fast track as sky reported yesterday points will be docked THIS season

clubs like chelsea and man city have huge incomes from marketing and sales they can avoid a three years on the trot loss by lumping it together every third year

How much does Man City make from merchandise?


Premier League Clubs Retail, Merchandise, Apparel & Product Licensing Revenue Data
ClubShirt Sales (Units)Total Revenue
Liverpool2.45m£94.3m
Chelsea1.85m£92.8m
Arsenal975k£77.3m
Manchester City755k£37.3m
even man city not as big a worldwide brand yet can cover the 105m 3 year loss with shirt sales
 
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When you get promoted to the PL you can either break the bank to try and stay up or not.
If you break the bank, there’s no guarantee that you stay up, (relegation is still very likely) but you have a fighting chance. However, if you do stay up you’ll almost certainly fall foul of FFP rules. And face a points deduction/relegation in your second season. And pundits will moan that you’re breaking the rules.
If you decide not to break the bank you’ll get relegated. And pundits will moan that you’re not taking it seriously.
Hobson’s choice.
It’s all bonkers.
 
AgaMonkey said:
When you get promoted to the PL you can either break the bank to try and stay up or not.
If you break the bank, there’s no guarantee that you stay up, (relegation is still very likely) but you have a fighting chance. However, if you do stay up you’ll almost certainly fall foul of FFP rules. And face a points deduction/relegation in your second season. And pundits will moan that you’re breaking the rules.
If you decide not to break the bank you’ll get relegated. And pundits will moan that you’re not taking it seriously.
Hobson’s choice.
It’s all bonkers.
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Yeah agreed. Clubs not being able to spend what they like guarantees Man Utd the title each season. Which is what we want, right?
 
Dkc said:
The Championship is less predictable despite parachute payments. There always seems to be a Luton / Ipswich / Coventry up there challenging the teams relegated from the PL. 'Big' clubs like Sunderland, Derby, pigs are regularly relegated. It's a more exciting league as a result. But I think it's harder for promoted teams to survive in the PL today, as the standard is so high. Forest needed to 'go for it' ie replace their entire team to stand a chance of survival. Forest spent money that Luton and us could only dream of.

Currently in the PL, unless you're one of the Manc clubs, Liverpool, Newcastle, Chelsea, Spurs or Arsenal, your main ambition is to avoid relegation. The biggest success you can realistically expect is to qualify for the Europa or Conference Leagues. It's not a lot of fun to watch your team be outclassed every week, but that's what most promoted clubs can look forward to.

For me, it's best to see promotion from the Championship as a big financial reward that will keep the club competitive in the 2nd tier, plus a season in the global limelight. Anything else is a bonus. To supporters of clubs like ours it's a problem, but the PL doesn't care as long as the money keeps rolling in.
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Alan Birchenall's hair said:
Yeah agreed. Clubs not being able to spend what they like guarantees Man Utd the title each season. Which is what we want, right?
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If competing means risking fina ncial ruin then yes.!
The route of most evil within the game is due to clubs trying to compete with wages and transfer fees which really is beyond them .

The idea is to stop boom and bust( which we could have been in) and wealthy owners withdrawing there support,a classic case at the moment is Reading.
It's a good example of what can happen! a club we'll run under John Majeski ,good academy and all that,chinamen comes in with big ideas ! Gets disappointed and more or less dumps Reading even though he's the owner.
Keep docking points to the abuses ! it is in the long run good for the game.
Frustrating to fans like us and even forest who have dreams of stabilising in the premiership.
That's how it is in reality ! Building a team through good management and an ability to hold onto gifted academy recruits is ours and most clubs only route to the promised land without the risk of banishment to the lower leagues do we want that again ?.
 
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finlaytheblade said:
If competing means risking fina ncial ruin then yes.!
The route of most evil within the game is due to clubs trying to compete with wages and transfer fees which really is beyond them .

The idea is to stop boom and bust( which we could have been in) and wealthy owners withdrawing there support,a classic case at the moment is Reading.
It's a good example of what can happen! a club we'll run under John Majeski ,good academy and all that,chinamen comes in with big ideas ! Gets disappointed and more or less dumps Reading even though he's the owner.
Keep docking points to the abuses ! it is in the long run good for the game.
Frustrating to fans like us and even forest who have dreams of stabilising in the premiership.
That's how it is in reality ! Building a team through good management and an ability to hold onto gifted academy recruits is ours and most clubs only route to the promised land without the risk of banishment to the lower leagues do we want that again ?.
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Madejski got the club for next to nothing, then decided it was a good idea to flog it to a Russian oligarch for £40m when he got fed up.
 
Alan Birchenall's hair said:
Madejski got the club for next to nothing, then decided it was a good idea to flog it to a Russian oligarch for £40m when he got fed up.
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Exactly what I said it's a chinamen at present.
Reading had always been a lower league team he did do a good job including building a new stadium.
We have to be careful what we wish for ! we may have a poor Prince but he is doing a good job! Hopfully he sells to a good owner who is a football man.
Maybe a good thing he stays on with a stake in the club.
 
I still think Nottingham Forest are clutching just a bit.

Certain paragraphs in the case of your neighbours v EFL in 2019 or 2020 whenever it was sound awfully familiar.

I find the idea that Nottingham Forest and Tottenham would've had a properly constituted binding contract with a minimum purchase price in place or agreement for the sale of Brennan Johnson in place by June 30th 2023 to be implausible. Other than that I don't see how it can even begin to be considered to be rowed back at all.
 

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