Why would Premier League punish Forest for being big club again?

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I still think Forest narrowly staying up after spending shit loads changed the narrative on what promoted clubs should do. The amount of times us and Luton have been criticised for "not having a go" is ridiculous. Neither club can afford to have a go because if it failed, we'd go under. Forest would have been in a right state if they'd gone down and maybe that's what was needed for a debate about how money has ruined the top flight to start.

Clubs are more important than the competitiveness of The Premier League. FFP is extremely low down in the list of why it's extremely predictable as a league.
 

The only way to ensure a level playing field would be to introduce a salary/spending cap.

This is successful in American sports. Although they also have the benefit of the draft system.

This will never happen as it ensures the EPL is the most watched league in the world.

The alternative is to allow you to spend whatever you like. Who would win in this scenario? The big six of course!!

And if it all blows up in your face? Who loses?
Fatty Samuels would be the first one complaining why there were no safe guards in place to protect clubs.
 
finlaytheblade said:
That is typical of him ! He's full of elitism ! ……
Football changed thanks to Jimmy Hill & George Eastham ! Money was god from then on level playing field gone forever.
'Bosman 'just rubbed salt in the wounds.

It seems he wants to destroy all competition in favour of the rich few.
FFP is the last chance to stop total takeover of the rich and ruin what's left of a fantastic pyramid structure we have in England.
Sport not just football is driven by the enthusiasm of people not the prawn sandwich brigade .
Kill competition and sports dead
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Aye
How dare the Commie bastards want employment rights (woke alert!) in a capitalist society - fuck off to North Korea & be grateful you didn’t end up picking cotton
 
Not many years ago Aston Villa spent a shit load of money but only a dodgy Hawkeye camera saved them from relegation and possibly financial oblivion, look where they are now. Seems like this bell end Samuel likes and promotes corruption in the Premier League and why wouldn't he being a West Ham supporter.
 
Camden Blade said:
From the Sunday Times

MARTIN SAMUEL
Why would Premier League punish Forest for being big club again?
Martin Samuel
Saturday January 06 2024, 6.00pm, The Times
Now we wait. Where are Nottingham Forest? Are they up, are they down? Will they be relegated for showing unacceptable ambition, of the type our modern Premier League despises? Will Everton? All shall be revealed this month when the league’s accountants deliver their verdict. The football? That’s just something we do for television these days. It doesn’t much matter any more. It’s for the cameras, really, to give some former players a job. The real league table takes shape in a back office, out of sight. They will let us know what it looks like, when it suits them.

Evangelos Marinakis should just have accepted his fate, like the board at Norwich City. Remember the 2019-20 season when Norwich spent no money and meekly returned to the Championship, 13 points adrift of any other club and with a goal difference of minus 49? Oh, how we cheered. Lauded by their heart and style of play, even if it won them just five games all season. That’s how to do it, we wisely agreed. Don’t risk, don’t challenge. Consolidate. Balance. Build. And look where they’ve consolidated to now: 13th, in the Championship.

So that’s the modern Premier League’s idea of good common sense. Forest, on the other hand, are supposedly a basket-case club. Got into the Premier League and, inexplicably, tried to stay there. Bought players, improved the squad, not always rationally, and not always successfully, but always with the idea of having a go. And having a go used to be a good thing. It’s not as if Forest have been placed in jeopardy. They’re not skint. They’re not even struggling financially. Marinakis has the wealth to do this and, as a result, even when form has dipped, the City Ground remains a vibrant, positive place. The fans stayed loyal to Steve Cooper, the former head coach, despite adversity.

That doesn’t happen if people are furious. Had the locals felt short-changed by the Marinakis regime they would have taken it out on the owner, and then the head coach, when the downturn came. That both remained largely in credit — although Cooper wasn’t, with Marinakis, by the end — is testament to the constructive nature of having a go.

Forest haven’t always got it right, and the constant churn of playing staff made it hard for Cooper. Unless Marinakis changes his way it will be difficult for his successor, Nuno Espírito Santo, too. But there is the basis of a good team there, there is ambition, and they have made memories. Forest look a big club again. But the presumption is they will now be punished for this.

Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Aston Villa, Newcastle United and Manchester United, have all lost to Forest in their first two seasons of Premier League football under Marinakis’s ownership. They reached the semi-final of last season’s Carabao Cup too, eliminating Tottenham Hotspur on the way. If that was achieved while teetering on a financial precipice there would be cause for alarm. Yet there is no suggestion Marinakis cannot support his investment. Rather, he has rejuvenated a club that lay sleeping. It has been a good watch.

Marinakis assumed control in 2017 and stated an aim to qualify for Europe within five years. Four years later Forest sat bottom of the Championship when Cooper arrived. So, yes, the owner is behind schedule. Yet could Forest qualify for Europe in the future under his stewardship? Is it possible that, with the right players and more coherence, Forest could be where Villa, West Ham United or Brighton & Hove Albion are now? Of course. The club have hope, they have ambitious goals. Sadly, in Richard Masters’s Premier League, that increasingly causes alarm.

Everton showed ambition when they took on Carlo Ancelotti and brought players such as James Rodríguez to our league. How dare they? The narrative since is that the club overreached — but this ignores that by December 26, 2020, Ancelotti and the money spent backing him had taken Everton to second in the league. So it wasn’t the foolhardy escapade now painted. Yet ultimately that adventure contributed to a ten-point deduction, and maybe more now the Premier League accountants are marking Everton’s homework again.

Meaning, we wait. The league table we think we know could bear no relation to reality. Forest may be relocated south of Sheffield United and Luton Town, Everton may again swap places with Burnley. And for what? Having a go, having a crack, for falling foul of unnecessary, protectionist rules by displaying the type of ambition every fan desires for his or her club. The very thing that makes football compelling is becoming a crime now. All they want is good little boys, who will keep quiet, keep their heads down, not frighten the horses and accept their dismal fate.
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Fatty Samuels usual one dimensional view, however, in the real world rules are rules. Lets just wave them because Forest are the new media darlings eh. Big club don't make me laugh btw, gates of 29K big? (Big his words not mine). And finally he couldn't resist mentioning his demon club oh, that happens to be us. A twisted narrow minded fat bloke if you saw one!
 
Totally agree in everyway that money has ruined football . Its also created stadiums full of glory hunting tourists not loyal fans who follow their clubs ghrough thick and thin. My workplace here in derby half the staff are manutd or Liverpool and now citeh.
All television supporters.
My early years following football you had Ipswich and Aston villa at the top of the league and in Europe.
Forest under Clough, Liverpool were successful but not thru mega bucks .
Best team I ever saw was the mid 80s everton league champs they were so attack minded but money didn't buy the trophies.
Man utd were also a division 2 team fir a while.
We all know now that the premier league will be won each year by citeh , Liverpool or maybe arsenal .
Listening to every premier league manager they now focus on the Cup especially the f.a cup as they know its the only way they have an opportunity of a trophy.
Bournemouth manager has said they are going for it , Eddie howe at Newcastle saud the same. Tottenham are a cup team .
Leicester were unique and a breath of fresh air but it'll never happen again and what happened a year later they sacked Claudio.
Blackburn started the shit off under hack walker , he basically bought the oremier league title with money so the rest had to catch up.
PSG in France were shit till they found wealth .
The best thing about sheffield, unlike here in derby is most people are blades or owls not manutd etc.
 
Roygbiv said:
Forest would have been in a right state if they'd gone down and maybe that's what was needed for a debate about how money has ruined the top flight to start.
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People keep saying this, but as long as:

a) They recognise that in the event of relegation they need to firesale
b) They don't make a horrendous signing(s) whose values drop massively below what amortisation would indicate

They would have been absolutely fine. Spending £xm on players gives you £xm in assets. It doesn't disappear.
 
On a tangent here.. regarding getting a rich owner actually capable of breaking FFP. Lets just make a Tifo with Elon Musk's face on it. "Will you marry me?" in big letters. Can't fail.
 
jt64 said:
People keep saying this, but as long as:

a) They recognise that in the event of relegation they need to firesale
b) They don't make a horrendous signing(s) whose values drop massively below what amortisation would indicate

They would have been absolutely fine. Spending £xm on players gives you £xm in assets. It doesn't disappear.
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How many of these are they making their money back on though?

 

The super league is the best thing for the rest of the clubs who are considered out if the big 6.
The rest of the English/Welsh clubs can get back to a football league structure that helps all clubs and supporters.
Players wages and fees may then become realistic.
 
jono_t2000 said:
Exactly. If billionaires wanna lose money hand over fist to chase success then that's their perogative.
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I don't want to see our beautiful, Sheffield-forged game reduced to a beauty contest for billionaires. We are Blades but the rest of the world does not see us as sexy. (They don't see the Pigs at all, mercifully.)
 
Martin Samuel is dafter than I thought basically.

Whilst I get the sentiment that if a club or ownership want to spend and plug the gap between themselves and the top 6 or 7 sides in the PL that's their prerogative.

It's not the point.

Forest very nearly went down last season and that drop in revenue would have really buggered them. They gambled and risked and it did pay off, luckily.
It nearly didn't.

But some clubs us included at this point cannot do that.

For me the real push should be about closing the gap of money with ffp in a way. The leagues were far more competitive before the PL. And wouldn't it be great to see that again? I know we won't but it was a more level playing field.
It still would result in the top clubs invariably winning most things but your get more football stories. More random sides winning cups, leagues and finishing top 4 or 6.

Sadly the whole point of the premier league was to make this far more unlikely. Because Arsenal, Spurs, Everton Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Everton wanted to retain more of the money from sky/ TV and become even bigger.

They didn't at that point see man city coming with Saudi money which is in a way funny. In another way it's further frustrating..
 
Pretty muddled article to my thinking. He starts off by slagging off the money men who have destroyed the majority of the competitive element of the top end game in England, no argument with that but then he wants to tie it in with poor old Forest and their ubercunt chairman who quite frankly would sell his family into slavery if he too could have a seat at the top table.

The clear position of the PL now is that there are quite enough super clubs to keep the revenues rolling in and all they need now is a rotating cast of fall guy clubs who can turn up for a season or two and make up the numbers. Because the PL is and always was set up to bring about this vernal pit of corruption that's exactly what they are doing. Set up the financial rules so that it's madness/impossible for a promoted team to spend the money they need to in order to compete get a bunch of pundits to talk shite and denigrate any team not in the elite group and thus to convince the gullible and the stupid that they really are fans both here and abroad just because they can watch on TV/streaming services etc and feel the warmth of some vicarious shallow glory. I'm pretty much sick of the lot of it.
 
Camden Blade said:
From the Sunday Times

MARTIN SAMUEL
Why would Premier League punish Forest for being big club again?
Martin Samuel
Saturday January 06 2024, 6.00pm, The Times
Now we wait. Where are Nottingham Forest? Are they up, are they down? Will they be relegated for showing unacceptable ambition, of the type our modern Premier League despises? Will Everton? All shall be revealed this month when the league’s accountants deliver their verdict. The football? That’s just something we do for television these days. It doesn’t much matter any more. It’s for the cameras, really, to give some former players a job. The real league table takes shape in a back office, out of sight. They will let us know what it looks like, when it suits them.

Evangelos Marinakis should just have accepted his fate, like the board at Norwich City. Remember the 2019-20 season when Norwich spent no money and meekly returned to the Championship, 13 points adrift of any other club and with a goal difference of minus 49? Oh, how we cheered. Lauded by their heart and style of play, even if it won them just five games all season. That’s how to do it, we wisely agreed. Don’t risk, don’t challenge. Consolidate. Balance. Build. And look where they’ve consolidated to now: 13th, in the Championship.

So that’s the modern Premier League’s idea of good common sense. Forest, on the other hand, are supposedly a basket-case club. Got into the Premier League and, inexplicably, tried to stay there. Bought players, improved the squad, not always rationally, and not always successfully, but always with the idea of having a go. And having a go used to be a good thing. It’s not as if Forest have been placed in jeopardy. They’re not skint. They’re not even struggling financially. Marinakis has the wealth to do this and, as a result, even when form has dipped, the City Ground remains a vibrant, positive place. The fans stayed loyal to Steve Cooper, the former head coach, despite adversity.

That doesn’t happen if people are furious. Had the locals felt short-changed by the Marinakis regime they would have taken it out on the owner, and then the head coach, when the downturn came. That both remained largely in credit — although Cooper wasn’t, with Marinakis, by the end — is testament to the constructive nature of having a go.

Forest haven’t always got it right, and the constant churn of playing staff made it hard for Cooper. Unless Marinakis changes his way it will be difficult for his successor, Nuno Espírito Santo, too. But there is the basis of a good team there, there is ambition, and they have made memories. Forest look a big club again. But the presumption is they will now be punished for this.

Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Aston Villa, Newcastle United and Manchester United, have all lost to Forest in their first two seasons of Premier League football under Marinakis’s ownership. They reached the semi-final of last season’s Carabao Cup too, eliminating Tottenham Hotspur on the way. If that was achieved while teetering on a financial precipice there would be cause for alarm. Yet there is no suggestion Marinakis cannot support his investment. Rather, he has rejuvenated a club that lay sleeping. It has been a good watch.

Marinakis assumed control in 2017 and stated an aim to qualify for Europe within five years. Four years later Forest sat bottom of the Championship when Cooper arrived. So, yes, the owner is behind schedule. Yet could Forest qualify for Europe in the future under his stewardship? Is it possible that, with the right players and more coherence, Forest could be where Villa, West Ham United or Brighton & Hove Albion are now? Of course. The club have hope, they have ambitious goals. Sadly, in Richard Masters’s Premier League, that increasingly causes alarm.

Everton showed ambition when they took on Carlo Ancelotti and brought players such as James Rodríguez to our league. How dare they? The narrative since is that the club overreached — but this ignores that by December 26, 2020, Ancelotti and the money spent backing him had taken Everton to second in the league. So it wasn’t the foolhardy escapade now painted. Yet ultimately that adventure contributed to a ten-point deduction, and maybe more now the Premier League accountants are marking Everton’s homework again.

Meaning, we wait. The league table we think we know could bear no relation to reality. Forest may be relocated south of Sheffield United and Luton Town, Everton may again swap places with Burnley. And for what? Having a go, having a crack, for falling foul of unnecessary, protectionist rules by displaying the type of ambition every fan desires for his or her club. The very thing that makes football compelling is becoming a crime now. All they want is good little boys, who will keep quiet, keep their heads down, not frighten the horses and accept their dismal fate.
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Sorry Sam but rules are rules. Clubs and their owners, rich or poor know the rules and if you break them you run the risk of facing the consequences.
 
Paulus said:
Pretty muddled article to my thinking. He starts off by slagging off the money men who have destroyed the majority of the competitive element of the top end game in England, no argument with that but then he wants to tie it in with poor old Forest and their ubercunt chairman who quite frankly would sell his family into slavery if he too could have a seat at the top table.

The clear position of the PL now is that there are quite enough super clubs to keep the revenues rolling in and all they need now is a rotating cast of fall guy clubs who can turn up for a season or two and make up the numbers. Because the PL is and always was set up to bring about this vernal pit of corruption that's exactly what they are doing. Set up the financial rules so that it's madness/impossible for a promoted team to spend the money they need to in order to compete get a bunch of pundits to talk shite and denigrate any team not in the elite group and thus to convince the gullible and the stupid that they really are fans both here and abroad just because they can watch on TV/streaming services etc and feel the warmth of some vicarious shallow glory. I'm pretty much sick of the lot of it.
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That's really well summed up
 
If the article wasn’t written by that cunt Samuels, and the subject matter wasn’t Nottingham Fuckin Forest…I’d totally agree with it.
Even though we laughed at their “reckless” spending and joked about a potential fire sale…I quietly admired their attempt to upset the transfer apple cart.
What made it worse, I knew deep down my club would do absolutely the opposite…and we did.
 
copernicus1889 said:
I don't want to see our beautiful, Sheffield-forged game reduced to a beauty contest for billionaires. We are Blades but the rest of the world does not see us as sexy. (They don't see the Pigs at all, mercifully.)
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Oh I agree, I definitely don't want Sheffield United to go down this route.

The reason I'm saying other clubs can do it if they want is because the bubble is very close to bursting.

Spanish and German clubs are struggling to make things meet.

Here in the UK, the premier league consider it a success getting the same tv revenue as the previous deal without any increase.

TV revenue is starting to top out and those clubs spending with skant regard are digging a bigger and bigger hole for themselves.
 
With how this season has panned out seems like if you don't go all-in like forest do you've got very little hope of staying up, the modern day premier league ladies and gentlemen.
 
He’s converted me.

I’m now off to tell my Bank that when I outspend my income and fail to pay my mortgage they should be fully behind me and not show such a lack of ambition!

It’s almost a pity that more clubs don’t go to the wall given the folly that is football finance. Always seems to be some sucker, this time 777, to save a badly run club who are due the comeuppance.
 
Cretins like Samuel tie themselves in knots with their hypocrisy. They preach 'fiscal responsibility' and in the next champion 'having a go'. Football clubs are part of an ecosystem. If one club 'has a go' it impacts the whole football league. Players wages, bonuses, contract expectations. No club is an island.

You'll never hear these hypocrites calling for a draft system or wage caps or some other form of marked egalitarianism. The easiest thing to do, after all, is share the wealth equally in the prem and then we can all 'have a go'.Or give us all a budget of say 50% of the poorest club in the league's revenue. Problem solved.

The goal of these mouthpieces is the same as the EPL and government: to maintain the league's preeminence as this huge global revenue generator. At ANY cost to the fans, the sustainability of clubs or the greater good of the game. The "best league in the world TM". Until they propose huge structural changes, opinions like Samuel's are hot air.

What the league does worry about is a lack of competition that is so distinct that it eventually undermines the "greatest league in the world's" sales pitch. It's not hard to see why. Forest are a cautionary tale, not a model to support or wish to emulate.
 
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With regards to clubs operating according to FFP rules, take a look outside the Premier League at Barcelona. They’re over one billion pounds in debt, and yet are still running. How?

It’s always been about the elite clubs, and it always will be. The only way to break the hegemony is to find yourself a mega rich benefactor. That used to mean a wealthy local businessman, like Jack Walker at Blackburn. Then it was a wealthy foreign businessman or investment group like Abramovich at Chelsea, or Fenway at Liverpool, or King Power at Leicester, and now it’s a wealthy country with money to burn and a track record of appalling human rights abuse, like Man City, Newcastle, PSG etc.

There is no way a club like ours can compete fairly on this extremely biased system. The best we can hope for is survival, middling along happy to avoid relegation, like Everton seem to do every season, and perhaps a brief flirtation with the top half of the table. And if or when we do go down then the elite clubs will have replacement cannon fodder to replace us.
 

So if I read this correctly, if you show ambition and break the rules, then that's ok? No wonder the league is so skewwhiff when clubs blatantly saying FFP (or whatever) f88k that we'll risk a points deduction coz we can milk the league dry if we stay in it.
 
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