United and academy category one

[BobblesBlade]

Shirecliffe could have worked but the residents didn’t want the floodlights. Killed it really.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Shirecliffe cost around 4 -5 million. At the time the club had effectively been evicted by SCC. Placed on notice at least. It was a big sink or swim moment for the club. Neil, John Warnock, Ron reid and Kevin Fogg pushed McCabe into the academy idea at a time when academy investment wasn't in vogue. This was at the cost of investment for the first team. Our spending under Warnock was negligible until January of the promotion season - it was ring fenced for Shirecliffe. The argument in favour had been lent obvious weight by the progress of Tonge, Jagielka, Montgomery etc in the first team. This was a real sink or swim moment for the club imo as we could've been the same mid to bottom half Champ club sans the academy which was, and remains, the bright spark and arguably the chief reason behind the club's revival under Wilder.

At the time Shirecliffe represented real ambition as aside from a few clubs there weren't these huge investments in academy football we see today. The obvious move was to shut it or set up some ad hoc accommodation. To essentially become a btech pigs with some lesser version of their tent - or to get rid altogether.

The EPPP legislation has killed a lot of academies or forced further investment. It could be called the shit or get off the pot legislation. It has, imo, been brought in to aid the monopolisation of revenue amongst a few clubs at the top of the game. The scale of investment required is such that only they can afford the annual investment from their guaranteed organic revenue streams. Everybody else is dependent on PL survival and/or a sugar daddy owner.

The really insidious part of EPPP is how easy it makes it for the hegemons to take your top academy players for minimal compensation. Their measure of control is above and beyond that which they enjoy in the normal transfer market. It reinforces an already deep inequality in football when it comes to player recruitment. A lot of clubs without the resources to go Cat one have thus downgraded or mothballed their systems. Others have decided to dig deep for Cat one. United are fairly unique: we have adapted and continued to thrive with a Cat two system. Most of the post EPPP successes being older lads polished at the Shirecliffe finishing school, rather than lads that have come all the way through the age groups in tje traditional way. What is remarkable, imo, is how many lads we have still managed to keep through the traditional pathway.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

"we don't need to invest in the Academy, it has already produced great players X Y Z as it is"

As nopigfansintown perfectly explains, it produced X Y Z precisely because we DID invest in the Academy, (and, at the expense of the first team squad).

And, a reminder, we can invest in the Academy (both physical & human infrastructure), and NOT pursue Cat 1 status. We can invest in the things we do well (for eg recruitment of kids who have been released by other Academies).

 

[Weasel]

We should be improving the academy (and the facilities for the first team) with some substantial investment this year. I think we should probably hold off applying for Cat1 atm or until our future in the PL and therefore future incomes are a little clearer. Nothing to stop us getting infrastructure in place to move us along that line so that if we decide to go down that route and apply for Cat1 then it's not such a reach and we are a good part there. Good academy facilities and good training facilities for the first team, are not mutually exclusive to Cat1 accreditation.

 

[noire]

Can we just take advantage of Derby’s cat one status and keep taking players like Bogle? It’s not doing them a great deal of good at the moment (although without it I’m not sure what kids they’d have played when Rooney was in charge and they were in administration).

Derby finished their PL2 season with a grand total of………1 point.

While preparing and aiming for a Cat 1 academy is a very valid and worthwhile endeavour, without the means or resource to run it properly it will be a waste of money. We would I feel be far better served investing in being the best Cat 2 academy in the country.

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

Just reading the story about a former promising talent of ours Jacob Mellis who was lured to the bright lights of London. I remember him leaving and think this is definitely a case of a youngster who would have been better advised to stay at United and progress steadily with us.

Former Sheffield United wonderkid Jacob Mellis now homeless after remarkable spiral

Former Blades wonderkid opens up on drink issue after being left homeless after post-Chelsea spiral

www.thestar.co.uk

 

[blade67]

Finding space and getting the council on side to develop something of the size we'd need for a cat 1 academy isn't an easy thing. Warehouses and offices pay a lot better to landowners and landlords than selling/leasing land with football pitches on it.

What exactly do we need for a Cat1 academy?

Could we do a split site. For example, convert Shirecliffe to just support the first team, with the odd academy game there, and move the academy to a new site

 

[Tarqs]

What exactly do we need for a Cat1 academy?

Could we do a split site. For example, convert Shirecliffe to just support the first team, with the odd academy game there, and move the academy to a new site

From what I understand, we just need a couple more coaches (so just hire someone from bottom of the moor, they'll happily turn up for some free snap), an upgraded canteen with Jamie Oliver menu and the latest copy of Fifa when it comes out.

 

[BobblesBlade]

I think they should go back to Junior Blades and have trials every summer.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I think they should go back to Junior Blades and have trials every summer.

Of course, the Academy still use Open Trials as one source for recruitment.

 

[Carlton Blade]

United's attitude towards creating young professional footballers, regardless of whether they stay at United or not should be commended. I like that, for the most part we seem to help players move on when it's time to go (be that up or down the football ladder)

I can't say I'm an expert but I think Cat 1 could be a bit of a white whale for United. Keep everyone on the same site and build on what the academy has done so well. If I had a child released from a big club looking for their next move I'd be delighted if United were interested

 

[Houston_Blade]

What exactly do we need for a Cat1 academy?

Could we do a split site. For example, convert Shirecliffe to just support the first team, with the odd academy game there, and move the academy to a new site

I think it's more about the staffing levels rather than facilities, but to house the staff you need better facilities and more pitches/indoor areas etc.

You need to offer full time education alongside their football from a certain age, so would need full time teachers across the national curriculum (currently I think we offer this in conjunction with local colleges and schools), then there's a lot of outreach and development centres needed in satellite locations and people to staff these (these are just hired venues in say Rotherham, Doncaster, Chesterfield, Dronfield etc.).

I think I read that we have around 16 full time staff and lots of part time coaches, the FT staff would treble or quadruple if we were to go to Cat 1 as the player to coach ratio is lower and the coaching time per player increases.

 

[PageHallBlade]

What exactly do we need for a Cat1 academy?

Could we do a split site. For example, convert Shirecliffe to just support the first team, with the odd academy game there, and move the academy to a new site

yes you could

 

[robbiez666]

What exactly do we need for a Cat1 academy?

Could we do a split site. For example, convert Shirecliffe to just support the first team, with the odd academy game there, and move the academy to a new site

I think you need stuff like:

A certain amount of pitches
A certain amount of dedicated coaches
A certain amount of facilities, including classrooms

If we could get a training ground somewhere else and just had the academy at Shirecliffe it's possible but the running costs are huge.

 

[blade67]

Tarqs PageHallBlade robbiez666 derekacorah

Thanks for your responses to a genuine question.

Part of my reason for asking is that I think United should move the academy to share with either Sheffield Hallam at Bawtry Road or Sheffield Uni at Warminster Road. My preference would be Bawtry Road.

I think Swansea did this

 

[blade67]

.

 

[blade67]

"we don't need to invest in the Academy, it has already produced great players X Y Z as it is"

As nopigfansintown perfectly explains, it produced X Y Z precisely because we DID invest in the Academy, (and, at the expense of the first team squad).

And, a reminder, we can invest in the Academy (both physical & human infrastructure), and NOT pursue Cat 1 status. We can invest in the things we do well (for eg recruitment of kids who have been released by other Academies).

Great post

 

[blade67]

Just reading the story about a former promising talent of ours Jacob Mellis who was lured to the bright lights of London. I remember him leaving and think this is definitely a case of a youngster who would have been better advised to stay at United and progress steadily with us.

Former Sheffield United wonderkid Jacob Mellis now homeless after remarkable spiral

Former Blades wonderkid opens up on drink issue after being left homeless after post-Chelsea spiral

www.thestar.co.uk

It's a sorry tale but I'm not sure we, or anyone would have helped Jacob. He clearly went his own way. Players are ultimately responsible for themselves and Jacob had loads of chances.

 

[Yogi]

Matt Thorpe new under 18’s coach he’s spent time previously with Derby and Liverpool looks like a good get

 

[JT89]

Tarqs PageHallBlade robbiez666 derekacorah

Thanks for your responses to a genuine question.

Part of my reason for asking is that I think United should move the academy to share with either Sheffield Hallam at Bawtry Road or Sheffield Uni at Warminster Road. My preference would be Bawtry Road.

I think Swansea did this

Swansea dropped from cat 1 back down to cat 2 in 2020.

If we were looking to upgrade to Cat 1 we couldn't share facilities with either uni as the facilities have to be for the sole use of the academy (can't even be shared with our own 1st team)

 

[georgebernardshaw]

Seems a long time ago when we had an old Division 1 team partially made up with Sheffield Boys, Don & Dearne Boys and the usual United low cost signings. I confess that I haven’t kept up with the juniors as much as I could have, but there must have been an attraction for local kids in those days, and several local players were in that John Harris 60s/70s team.

Does this Category 1/2 system preclude us from finding players like Len Badger, Bernard Shaw, Geoff Salmons, the Wagstaffs, Mick Jones, Alan Woodward etc?

Anyone thinking that United will find £40 million without something like five consecutive PL years is surely dreaming.

Ball_Sup (Phil), I’d appreciate your view, as ever

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Seems a long time ago when we had an old Division 1 team partially made up with Sheffield Boys, Don & Dearne Boys and the usual United low cost signings. I confess that I haven’t kept up with the juniors as much as I could have, but there must have been an attraction for local kids in those days, and several local players were in that John Harris 60s/70s team.

Does this Category 1/2 system preclude us from finding players like Len Badger, Bernard Shaw, Geoff Salmons, the Wagstaffs, Mick Jones, Alan Woodward etc?

Anyone thinking that United will find £40 million without something like five consecutive PL years is surely dreaming.

Ball_Sup (Phil), I’d appreciate your view, as ever

I'm a simple boy
Currently, United clearly can't afford the investment needed for Cat 1
It seems unlikely we can host BOTH a Cat 1 Academy AND a first team training centre on the one Shirecliffe site
So, whichever way we went for Cat 1, we'd need a new site. Either for Academy AND First Team, or in combination with Shirecliffe
That adds to the investment we'd need. Buying a new site & developing it is more expensive that keeping to one, already owned site.

On that simple analysis, we won't/can't/shouldn't be investing for Cat 1 anytime soon.

Recent money has been put into infrastructure at Shirecliffe in the guise of the first team training pitch. That is money well spent and benefits the Academy (not least by releasing other pitches for them) as well.

So, if asked, I will say we should NOT be pursuing Category 1 Academy status at the moment. Let's be proud of what we are/have and don't pretend we're something we're not.

Now. At extremes, we have two types of kids in the Academy. Those, usually local, lads who are brought at 11/12 or younger and come with their parents and are developed through the ages by the club. The Ky Gordon's, the Blasta Arblasters. And those older lads who have already been in an Academy system and haven't quite made it. The David Brooks, the Sydie Pecks.

Obviously, there's a lot in between those extremes. The recruited from "elsewheres". The Dan Jebbisons, the Will Osulas. And, the where the fuck has he come froms. The Iliman Ndiayes.

So, we have a mixed model on Academy recruitment. And, I think it's a good model. And Iliman, Brooks, Rhys, Will the O, and Dan the J are evidence. What we haven't really had is a local, been at the club years, lad break through and stay in the first team. Dominic CL could have been that guy. But, it happened elsewhere for him.

And, we, them, anybody, Cat 1, Cat 2 what fucking ever will always lose any ridiculous talented (say) 13 year olds to the really big clubs. And, I've heard all the arguments about - we'd get more money for them if we were Cat 1. But, it's just reality that we might lose kids.

So, yes, yes, yes. We still have a model where a Badger, Shaw, Jones, Woodward could be recruited into the Academy, be developed, and graduate to the first team. But, obvs, as ever, they might be poached.

We are attractive to kids and parents because we are a top end Championship/Premier League side and we have the track record of graduates - Walker, Maguire, Dom, etc. Natch, Manchester City are more attractive and natch we'd be more attractive as Cat 1. But, we're still attractive.

Realistically we're financially and real estate some way off Cat 1. But, if we reinforce what we do well, we'll do well.

 

[georgebernardshaw]

I'm a simple boy
Currently, United clearly can't afford the investment needed for Cat 1
It seems unlikely we can host BOTH a Cat 1 Academy AND a first team training centre on the one Shirecliffe site
So, whichever way we went for Cat 1, we'd need a new site. Either for Academy AND First Team, or in combination with Shirecliffe
That adds to the investment we'd need. Buying a new site & developing it is more expensive that keeping to one, already owned site.

On that simple analysis, we won't/can't/shouldn't be investing for Cat 1 anytime soon.

Recent money has been put into infrastructure at Shirecliffe in the guise of the first team training pitch. That is money well spent and benefits the Academy (not least by releasing other pitches for them) as well.

So, if asked, I will say we should NOT be pursuing Category 1 Academy status at the moment. Let's be proud of what we are/have and don't pretend we're something we're not.

Now. At extremes, we have two types of kids in the Academy. Those, usually local, lads who are brought at 11/12 or younger and come with their parents and are developed through the ages by the club. The Ky Gordon's, the Blasta Arblasters. And those older lads who have already been in an Academy system and haven't quite made it. The David Brooks, the Sydie Pecks.

Obviously, there's a lot in between those extremes. The recruited from "elsewheres". The Dan Jebbisons, the Will Osulas. And, the where the fuck has he come froms. The Iliman Ndiayes.

So, we have a mixed model on Academy recruitment. And, I think it's a good model. And Iliman, Brooks, Rhys, Will the O, and Dan the J are evidence. What we haven't really had is a local, been at the club years, lad break through and stay in the first team. Dominic CL could have been that guy. But, it happened elsewhere for him.

And, we, them, anybody, Cat 1, Cat 2 what fucking ever will always lose any ridiculous talented (say) 13 year olds to the really big clubs. And, I've heard all the arguments about - we'd get more money for them if we were Cat 1. But, it's just reality that we might lose kids.

So, yes, yes, yes. We still have a model where a Badger, Shaw, Jones, Woodward could be recruited into the Academy, be developed, and graduate to the first team. But, obvs, as ever, they might be poached.

We are attractive to kids and parents because we are a top end Championship/Premier League side and we have the track record of graduates - Walker, Maguire, Dom, etc. Natch, Manchester City are more attractive and natch we'd be more attractive as Cat 1. But, we're still attractive.

Realistically we're financially and real estate some way off Cat 1. But, if we reinforce what we do well, we'll do well.

Thanks mate, you’ve answered my questions

 

[blade67]

Swansea dropped from cat 1 back down to cat 2 in 2020.

If we were looking to upgrade to Cat 1 we couldn't share facilities with either uni as the facilities have to be for the sole use of the academy (can't even be shared with our own 1st team)

Thanks. From this and reading the post above from Ball_Sup (Phil) my take is we don't even entertain CAT1, stick to what we are good at and perhaps have the option of sharing facilities with one of the universities who seem to both have very good, under utilised facilities

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Thanks. From this and reading the post above from Ball_Sup (Phil) my take is we don't even entertain CAT1, stick to what we are good at and perhaps have the option of sharing facilities with one of the universities who seem to both have very good, under utilised facilities

The Community Foundation "shadow youth teams" (we field men's teams in four different leagues) already have a very successful shared base at Handsworth FC. There are also other sites, but I am mainly familiar with the Handsworth site. The 4g pitch there means the men's & women's shadow youth teams & Handsworth teams can train "24/7".

 

[Nick Jansky]

The 4g pitch there means the men's & women's shadow youth teams & Handsworth teams can train "24/7".

Don’t they get knackered?

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Don’t they get knackered?

Poor....

 

[Nick Jansky]

Poor....

Open goal

 

[robbiez666]

New U-18s head coach

https://www.sufc.co.uk/news/2023/june/08/academy-bolstered/

 

[finlaytheblade]

It's a sorry tale but I'm not sure we, or anyone would have helped Jacob. He clearly went his own way. Players are ultimately responsible for themselves and Jacob had loads of chances.

Maybe Jacob was badly advised! Joining a london club at 15 along way from home ( was he from notts) is not the best move really.
Obviously a vulnerable personality in a place that can swallow you up and spit out the pieces.
Lads of 15 need protection from themselves,! I beleave things have improved a lot on that score since those days.