Understatement of the week

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

There's uncondoned violence, which is despicable. Then there's stuff like that. That tosser asked for it, live by the sword die by the sword.

He was despicable, but living by his gob, not a sword.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Jees, there's some precious snowflakes here tonight offering some sanctimonious bollocks.

Newton's Third Law could be adapted to that clip.

Now I'm off to buy some flares for next Friday's game and practice my kidney punching...

Assuming I am one of the 'snowflakes', I would just explain that I love football, love the Blades, and prefer to enjoy football without the violence which the game used to suffer from, especially in the late 70s/80s. I enjoy discussing/arguing with fans of other football clubs (it is one of the good things about being a fan), but I have never felt the urge to hit an opposing fan, or felt that it would serve any purpose.

 

[Esablade]

I don't agree with everything you (and a few others) have said. The Spurs fan is clearly an idiot, unbelievably stupid, and probably breaking some law such as breach of the peace. It is difficult to have much sympathy for him. However, I don't see how a physical attack is justified. If someone attacks you violently, you have every right to use force back; but if the 'attack' is merely verbal, then escalating the response to physical violence is wrong both legally and morally in my view - it is childish. If you say that the idiot (and the 2 Norwich idiots) deserved what they got, then you are condoning violence - a physical assault on someone who has not himself used violence.

Pretty much this.

The only time you're ever justified in using physical force is when there's an immediate physical threat to you or another. And when you hit someone like that you have no idea how much damage you're going to do when they fall down against the concrete.

The Spurs fans are obnoxious morons. The Millwall fan should be locked up.

You’re judging people by your personal
moral standards..fair enough.

If the Millwall fan gets locked up so be it...Im sure when he makes his decision he’s aware of the possible consequences.

It would appear however that the Spurs lad was not aware of the possible consequences...as others have said, he probably is aware now.

 

[Gimli]

What did he expect to happen? How else did he actually see that situation panning out?
I wouldn't punch anyone but the guy deserved it, and let's not tar all the Millwall fans with the same brush - they get a bad name but in the main they're a decent bunch.

 

[Jon P]

Trust me, it strange.

So you’d tell your kids (if you have them) that it’s ok to behave like that? I’ve learnt a lot about the type of people on here tonight.

 

[Tyler Durden]

So you’d tell your kids (if you have them) that it’s ok to behave like that? I’ve learnt a lot about the type of people on here tonight.

No worse than telling your kids that it's ok to antagonise people and expect no repurcussions. That'd be downright foolish.

 

[Esablade]

So you’d tell your kids (if you have them) that it’s ok to behave like that? I’ve learnt a lot about the type of people on here tonight.

What do children have to do with this situation?
They both appear to be adults.

 

[SteveBlade]

Jon P I'd like to know how far someone could go with you before you smacked them. Everyone has their breaking point.

I find it hard to believe that you're categorically against a physical reaction in response to any type of verbal abuse.

 

[oldblade]

I don't agree with everything you (and a few others) have said. The Spurs fan is clearly an idiot, unbelievably stupid, and probably breaking some law such as breach of the peace. It is difficult to have much sympathy for him. However, I don't see how a physical attack is justified. If someone attacks you violently, you have every right to use force back; but if the 'attack' is merely verbal, then escalating the response to physical violence is wrong both legally and morally in my view - it is childish. If you say that the idiot (and the 2 Norwich idiots) deserved what they got, then you are condoning violence - a physical assault on someone who has not himself used violence.

Your view is understandable and reasonable. But it's your view. All of us view things differently and our view is based on many things. No two (or even three or three hundred) people will see any particular incident in the same way.

Millwall had just lost to a London rival club and the Spurs supporter was baiting them. None of us are perfect. We're human and most people will lose it every now and then when baited. Some more than others, but that is probably just down to how we're made. What upsets one person might seem fairly insignificant to another. Sometimes in the heat of the moment you just can't stop yourself doing something that you might later wish you hadn't done.

This was not premeditated. It was a response to something.

Who was really in the wrong here? The person who threw the punch, or the person who goaded him into doing it? Again, we're all human and answers will vary from person to person.

We all have a trigger point. Everyone knows that. In my book, goading people that you don't know (and therefore have no idea how they are likely to react) is a bit like going up to a dog that you don't know and trying to fuss it. A very bad idea.

 

[Weasel]

I’ve learnt a lot about the type of people on here tonight

Well good for you Jon. If you can go to bed tonight having learnt something during the day then that in my book makes it a day well spent.

Today it seems that you have learnt that if some people act the twat, then sometimes others don't like that and will react to it. Sometimes violently. I bet the goading spuds fan in question also went to bed once and had learnt something from his day also.

 

[oldblade]

Assuming I am one of the 'snowflakes', I would just explain that I love football, love the Blades, and prefer to enjoy football without the violence which the game used to suffer from, especially in the late 70s/80s. I enjoy discussing/arguing with fans of other football clubs (it is one of the good things about being a fan), but I have never felt the urge to hit an opposing fan, or felt that it would serve any purpose.

The violence was going on a long time before the late 70s. It just didn't get the same amount of media coverage.

 

[Jon P]

Well good for you Jon. If you can go to bed tonight having learnt something during the day then that in my book makes it a day well spent.

Today it seems that you have learnt that if some people act the twat, then sometimes others don't like that and will react to it. Sometimes violently. I bet the goading spuds fan in question also went to bed once and had learnt something from his day also.

No need for the passive aggressive comment. I just can’t believe so many on here condone violence like that - rightly or wrongly provoked. I felt part of a community now I’m not so sure I want to be. It’s all just opinions at the end of the day, somehow I seem to be in the wrong. Yes I shouldn’t have tarred all Millwall fans with the same brush - flippant comment. Hope we win tomorrow and there’s no violence.

 

[Weasel]

No need for the passive aggressive comment. I just can’t believe so many on here condone violence like that - rightly or wrongly provoked. I felt part of a community now I’m not so sure I want to be. It’s all just opinions at the end of the day, somehow I seem to be in the wrong. Yes I shouldn’t have tarred all Millwall fans with the same brush - flippant comment. Hope we win tomorrow and there’s no violence.

Don't understand the 'passive aggressive comment' bit? You said you had learnt something today re the comments on here. I said that was a good thing. No aggression there fella. Are you sure your not seeing something that isn't there?

Oh, and wouldn't you think that the phrase you used about learning a lot about 'the type of people on here' was also a fairly sweeping statement to use and a pretty disengenuous one at that?

 

[oldblade]

No need for the passive aggressive comment. I just can’t believe so many on here condone violence like that - rightly or wrongly provoked. I felt part of a community now I’m not so sure I want to be. It’s all just opinions at the end of the day, somehow I seem to be in the wrong. Yes I shouldn’t have tarred all Millwall fans with the same brush - flippant comment. Hope we win tomorrow and there’s no violence.

Nothing wrong with disliking violence or disapproving of how the Millwall supporter reacted.

But what I think is that the Millwall fan didn't go out looking for a fight. He was walking along a road with others and was goaded by the Spurs fan. In a perfect world he would have walked on by. But he is a human being and as such is not perfect and sometimes our emotions are a bit raw and we just do something that maybe we shouldn't do. Does that make him despicable?

The instigator of this was the Spurs fan, not the Millwall fan. My opinion, and others will (and are entitled to) differ. There is no right or wrong in this, only opinions.

 

[1980]

As a Millwall fan that actually attended that game, all I will say is that they did a lot of goading that day.

It was really weird. There is a clip of when the Millwall escort arrives at WHL and it shows lots of Spurs filming us, while trying to goad us behind the police. Really odd. But all the Wall fans are just laughing at them, like you would if it was some little kids being cheeky.

Anyway, the consensus amongst most Millwall fans about that incident was that the Spurs tit should have been told to shut the fuck up at least - as he would have probably shat his pants and stopped. Rather than just clump him straight off. But I have no sympathy for him. Millwall have never been one for all this dancing around or chatting about it.

However, it could be argued that it may have been even worse if the bloke wasnt simply knocked down. As at least that was short and sweet. If the Spurs fan had been told to shut up and got lippy, and the other Spurs fans around, as there were plenty along that road, had joined in it could have esculated into a big brawl. Him getting knocked down shut all the Spurs fans up and our escort just kept walking, so as not to draw attention to it.

 

[Numpty's Dusty Ruts.]

No need for the passive aggressive comment. I just can’t believe so many on here condone violence like that - rightly or wrongly provoked. I felt part of a community now I’m not so sure I want to be. It’s all just opinions at the end of the day, somehow I seem to be in the wrong. Yes I shouldn’t have tarred all Millwall fans with the same brush - flippant comment. Hope we win tomorrow and there’s no violence.

Jon, I think basically you're right, nobody should rationally respond to verbal abuse with physical stuff. But, it's football, and football isn't very rational! I have a responsible job and think I'm a pretty upstanding member of society, but inside the ground I enjoy most of the unreconstructed sweary, shouty, blokey stuff that happens, shouting whatever at the people in the away end. Before the game, and after, I have been known to either ignore passing away fans, or enjoy a chat with them over a beer. What I wouldn't do is act like a total dick and continue the "in ground attitude" outside. I don't think people "deserve" to be smacked for gobbing off, but feelings run high around football and acting like an idiot will get an even more idiotic reaction from a more idiotic idiot than the gobbing off idiot! Such is the rationality of football and it's fans (but I love it!). UTB!

 

[tyke1889]

In my book, goading people that you don't know (and therefore have no idea how they are likely to react)

You got an ISBN number for that? Can't find it at Waterstones

 

[tomtheblade]

I can sympathise with Jon P's point.

Anyone who's ever complained about being given a police escort to a match, about being denied service at a pub, about being treated like a criminal or hooligan just for wearing a club shirt or singing a song.. should not be condoning this kind of behaviour.

If your expectations and standards of fans are so low that you can't condemn violence because you feel, at some level, that the guy 'deserved it' then don't complain when others place those low standards upon you and treat you accordingly.

Either we demand more of each other as fans and as human beings, or we live with the consequences. You can't have it both ways.

Personally I look forward to a day when we do expect better behaviour than physical violence just because of some taunting. If you're too childish to withstand some goading over the outcome of a football match, then you probably shouldn't be going.

 

[Basing Blade]

A favourite of Bert's.

He regrets it now. Stoopid sod.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news...w-football-prank-still-haunts-me-to-this-day/

 

[davidblade]

The thug that hit him is a criminal and deserves what ever the justice system says, if apprehended.
The fool who got hit, didn’t deserve to get hit but it’s hardly surprising is it .
Both of them are an advert for contraception.

 

[Dellas Cowboys]

I think this can be described as a dunce off.

 

[Rodley]

Can this thread get moved to General Chat, along with the other sanctimonious nonsense

 

[Weasel]

I can sympathise with Jon P's point.

Anyone who's ever complained about being given a police escort to a match, about being denied service at a pub, about being treated like a criminal or hooligan just for wearing a club shirt or singing a song.. should not be condoning this kind of behaviour.

If your expectations and standards of fans are so low that you can't condemn violence because you feel, at some level, that the guy 'deserved it' then don't complain when others place those low standards upon you and treat you accordingly.

Either we demand more of each other as fans and as human beings, or we live with the consequences. You can't have it both ways.

Personally I look forward to a day when we do expect better behaviour than physical violence just because of some taunting. If you're too childish to withstand some goading over the outcome of a football match, then you probably shouldn't be going.

Whilst not disagreeing with a large part of your post, I would just use an example.

I work away a lot and in the fairly recent past i was in Miami. Nice place, plenty of sunshine, and I was looking for a bite to eat. I was on the usual touristy haunts and walked along happy with myself. I turned a street corner and it was easy to notice that I was no longer on tourist territory and was starting to wonder into a bit of a ghetto with the number of faces that I had looking at me (not many English looking tbh) and I started to feel uneasy (the chalk marks on the floor shaped like bodies didn't help either). I retraced my steps and was soon enjoying myself back in tourist world again. Point is, I could have carried on walking and maybe I would have been fine. Maybe the locals would have left me alone, maybe I would have been taken in by a kindly local who would ply me with drinks and dinner and be a top pal. Or maybe, rightly or wrongly, if I had got mugged/robbed and maybe a slap around the head, the Miami PD (if reported) would have told me that I was a dickhead for continuing to go down that street in the first place and potentially putting myself in harms way. Now it doesn't make it right that I have to think like that and that there are 'no go' areas in many cities, but if your honest most people know the score and know that you can reduce the odds of something nasty happening to you by acting or not acting in a certain way.

Acting like a goading twat to a load of Millwall fans is on my register of things not to do to make sure I don't get a slap. It's probably now on the Spuds fans list now. Do i think it's right he got punched - no, do I have sympathy for him - no.

 

[northsomersetblade]

 

[west_yorks_blade]

Whilst not disagreeing with a large part of your post, I would just use an example.

I work away a lot and in the fairly recent past i was in Miami. Nice place, plenty of sunshine, and I was looking for a bite to eat. I was on the usual touristy haunts and walked along happy with myself. I turned a street corner and it was easy to notice that I was no longer on tourist territory and was starting to wonder into a bit of a ghetto with the number of faces that I had looking at me (not many English looking tbh) and I started to feel uneasy (the chalk marks on the floor shaped like bodies didn't help either). I retraced my steps and was soon enjoying myself back in tourist world again. Point is, I could have carried on walking and maybe I would have been fine. Maybe the locals would have left me alone, maybe I would have been taken in by a kindly local who would ply me with drinks and dinner and be a top pal. Or maybe, rightly or wrongly, if I had got mugged/robbed and maybe a slap around the head, the Miami PD (if reported) would have told me that I was a dickhead for continuing to go down that street in the first place and potentially putting myself in harms way. Now it doesn't make it right that I have to think like that and that there are 'no go' areas in many cities, but if your honest most people know the score and know that you can reduce the odds of something nasty happening to you by acting or not acting in a certain way.

Acting like a goading twat to a load of Millwall fans is on my register of things not to do to make sure I don't get a slap. It's probably now on the Spuds fans list now. Do i think it's right he got punched - no, do I have sympathy for him - no.

Spot on.

Scenario summary:

Dickhead 1 goads
Dickhead 2 punches Dickhead 1

Dickhead 1 still a dickhead
Dickhead 2 still a dickhead

The earth continues to rotate and orbit around the sun.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

I can sympathise with Jon P's point.

Anyone who's ever complained about being given a police escort to a match, about being denied service at a pub, about being treated like a criminal or hooligan just for wearing a club shirt or singing a song.. should not be condoning this kind of behaviour.

If your expectations and standards of fans are so low that you can't condemn violence because you feel, at some level, that the guy 'deserved it' then don't complain when others place those low standards upon you and treat you accordingly.

Either we demand more of each other as fans and as human beings, or we live with the consequences. You can't have it both ways.

Personally I look forward to a day when we do expect better behaviour than physical violence just because of some taunting. If you're too childish to withstand some goading over the outcome of a football match, then you probably shouldn't be going.

I wish I had expressed my views as well as you have.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Whilst not disagreeing with a large part of your post, I would just use an example.

I work away a lot and in the fairly recent past i was in Miami. Nice place, plenty of sunshine, and I was looking for a bite to eat. I was on the usual touristy haunts and walked along happy with myself. I turned a street corner and it was easy to notice that I was no longer on tourist territory and was starting to wonder into a bit of a ghetto with the number of faces that I had looking at me (not many English looking tbh) and I started to feel uneasy (the chalk marks on the floor shaped like bodies didn't help either). I retraced my steps and was soon enjoying myself back in tourist world again. Point is, I could have carried on walking and maybe I would have been fine. Maybe the locals would have left me alone, maybe I would have been taken in by a kindly local who would ply me with drinks and dinner and be a top pal. Or maybe, rightly or wrongly, if I had got mugged/robbed and maybe a slap around the head, the Miami PD (if reported) would have told me that I was a dickhead for continuing to go down that street in the first place and potentially putting myself in harms way. Now it doesn't make it right that I have to think like that and that there are 'no go' areas in many cities, but if your honest most people know the score and know that you can reduce the odds of something nasty happening to you by acting or not acting in a certain way.

Acting like a goading twat to a load of Millwall fans is on my register of things not to do to make sure I don't get a slap. It's probably now on the Spuds fans list now. Do i think it's right he got punched - no, do I have sympathy for him - no.

The only point of difference is that, as tomtheblade said, if we accept this, then football becomes a no-go area for many people, and a more unpleasant experience for almost everybody. It may be futile, but our only power to change things for the better is by persuasion and example, and support for the authorities when they get things right.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I can sympathise with Jon P's point.

Anyone who's ever complained about being given a police escort to a match, about being denied service at a pub, about being treated like a criminal or hooligan just for wearing a club shirt or singing a song.. should not be condoning this kind of behaviour.

If your expectations and standards of fans are so low that you can't condemn violence because you feel, at some level, that the guy 'deserved it' then don't complain when others place those low standards upon you and treat you accordingly.

Either we demand more of each other as fans and as human beings, or we live with the consequences. You can't have it both ways.

Personally I look forward to a day when we do expect better behaviour than physical violence just because of some taunting. If you're too childish to withstand some goading over the outcome of a football match, then you probably shouldn't be going.

As football fans we already have the low standards attributed to us already. The disgraceful behaviour of SYP at the derby game and subsequent lies about the events prove that.

Pointing out that the Spurs fan is an idiot isn't "condoning" anything other than stating the bleeding obvious. It's a football crowd, whose team have just lost. How drunk or stupid do you have to be not to see the possible outcome in that situation.

And let's leave aside the Millwall bogeyman. That could have happened anywhere, but throwing their name in the hat makes it more relevant I suppose.

 

[Rodley]

The only point of difference is that, as tomtheblade said, if we accept this, then football becomes a no-go area for many people, and a more unpleasant experience for almost everybody. It may be futile, but our only power to change things for the better is by persuasion and example, and support for the authorities when they get things right.

Forget about football, life becomes a no go area if you can’t see that if you subject others to provocation you’re going to get a reaction. And the reaction might be different to how you’d react. You’re asking football to uphold higher standards than modern life. If you put 6,000 people in a room, I’d expect plenty of them to be utter morons.

Just don’t act like an utter dickhead. It tends to work for most people.

 

[Rodley]

As football fans we already have the low standards attributed to us already. The disgraceful behaviour of SYP at the derby game and subsequent lies about the events prove that.

Pointing out that the Spurs fan is an idiot isn't "condoning" anything other than stating the bleeding obvious. It's a football crowd, whose team have just lost. How drunk or stupid do you have to be not to see the possible outcome in that situation.

And let's leave aside the Millwall bogeyman. That could have happened anywhere, but throwing their name in the hat makes it more relevant I suppose.

If I ever go round to someone’s house with dogshit on my shoe and then when I realise proceed to wipe said shoe on the carpet, curtains, bedding, waft it in the face of the homeowner and then as a consequence get thrown through the front door, at least I know there’ll be some lighting a candle for me on here.