Truth or narrative: which are you?

[Shirty Blade]

Can be great, can be poor. I'm going for inconsistent.

 

[blade67]

The only fans moaning about Sander Berge are the "up and at em crew" the sort of fans who the other night were wanting fucking Gary Madine back for Christ Sake, as a club we have moved on from such cloggers leave them at Blackpool and the like they are where they are for a reason. I'd much rather watch players who have the technical ability which always shines through if you match a cloggers work rate. Did Madine score the other night or do anything of not other than push and try to bully our defenders? NO.
Back to Sander Berge, absolute quality but he still has a few areas of his game that do need work, he can be too laid back you don't get so much time in the championship before a clogger is kicking lumps out of you and he needs to work on his heading which for a tall guy is frankly abysmal. Otherwise he is a joy to watch clearly a thinker who picks out the right pass without doing anything spectacular and breezes past defenders time after time. I do agree with those saying he doesn't get protection from referee's due to his size.

Apart from his assist. And he did a pretty good job of bullying our defenders, TBF.

Madine is a good footballer, who lacks pace, which has set the limit of his career. I wouldn't be massively surprised to see us bring in a player like that in during January to give us some options up front for the run in

 

[Servigliano]

There's no such thing as objective truth. It's all socially constructed and subjective. Whether or not Berge is a good player isn't an inviolate fact which exists independently in the world, and nobody watching him does so free from the biases of their own perspective and the broader social contexts.

You must be Nietzsche in disguise...

 

[alcoblade]

Recent talk of Berge’s performances (or either world beater or dog shit- never a reasoned middle ground) has got me wondering whether or not most of us watch football in a reasoned way or whether we approach the game with a predetermined narrative that we either for to the action we see or retrofit to our review of matches. This is not a dog at anyone rather a genuine question. I can’t now tell if I do one or the other. I watched the game th me other night and saw the aforementioned Norwegian as playing a fairly average game- others saw him be utter shite or a world beater on the way back from an injury. Can we all be right? I think this has happened throughout my time watching United, with scapegoats being the most obvious symptoms (ie forgetting how much Montgomery contributed besides Jagielka in midfield in our distant promotion season because he was most definitely a clogger who couldn’t kick a ball straight). And this phenomenon extends far beyond United. Think about the narrative around Keegan’s Newcastle and the great entertainers tag - now look back and see how they scored relatively few goals and based their success on a tight defence. So do we see the truth or simply what we want to see to confirm our own theories ( legend/waste of space)? Is Berge shite or brilliant or actually somewhere in the middle?

He’s somewhere in the middle. I’ve never met anyone who thinks he’s shite.

Unfortunately for him, he arrived with a hefty price tag and a mythical story about Jurgen Klopp, which earned him an army of fanboys.

The battle seems mainly to centre around chipping away at the dwindling band of fanboys, and this seems to translate to “why don’t you rate Berge”, rather than the more boring but accurate “he’s just a very decent championship footballer”.

 

[pommpey]

Although it's stated this isn't aimed at anyone, the post has appeared post the latest 'My take ... ' and the backwash since I gave him a 3/10, so let's be truthful about what this is really about.

I'll be the first one to admit, Berge does have some capability. In possession he can turn on the potential and go past opposition defenders when he opens his stride. He's done it a few times in the second half in games at BDTBL on the right. He's also popped up in the box to stroke the ball home on the end of a decent move, like v Blackpool. But 'best midfielder in the division' he is not. He is however one of the most expensive midfielders in the division and comes with a great reputation, one of which it's difficult to justify given the net worth he has shown in red and white. He's built like a brick shithouse - tall, rangy and sturdy looking but when put side by side with other central midfield playmakers like Matic and even Brown but to name a couple, the consistency of those players outshines Berge's by a massive gap. Let's also compare him to other midfield acquisitions we have made over the past few years since Coutts ... is he any better than him, or Lundstram (prior to 'toys out') or Norwood (ignoring his shit spell) or Fleck circa 2018-20, or even the moderate disappointment that was Keiron Dowell? The expectation of them, because they were either loaned or bought cheap was low, but the output has been consistent. With Berge, he cost us a lot more than that lot combined yet his output, when he's not broken, has been at their level if not below at times. If we are now officially duking it out with Burnley for top spot and maintaining the air gap between us and the chasing pack, we can't afford straphangers, and we can't excuse his lack of drive and grit away with pissy reasoning too. He's a professional footballer with a physio and conditioning team and diet/nutritionists aplenty, paid fucking exorbitant amounts and in a team likely to give him his second shot at playing in the best league in the world again. Three and a half matches now and he's 'just coming back from injury'? Really? Why is he not subbed then when he's looking out on his feet or feeling the injury again? I can't accept it. It's clear to me he is a hot/cold player who struggles with aspects of our game in a team which struggles to accommodate him as a player. It's as simple as that. Almost four seasons in now and he's still not returning the investment, mind you, that aint a high bar with Wilder's signings, is it?

I pray for some epiphany from him in the New Year and we see a load more drive, guts, determination and killer instinct from him because as it stands, Osborn with all his limitations shows more of that and McAtee/Doyle have it in bucketloads.

pommpey

 

[Frank the tank]

Although it's stated this isn't aimed at anyone, the post has appeared post the latest 'My take ... ' and the backwash since I gave him a 3/10, so let's be truthful about what this is really about.

I'll be the first one to admit, Berge does have some capability. In possession he can turn on the potential and go past opposition defenders when he opens his stride. He's done it a few times in the second half in games at BDTBL on the right. He's also popped up in the box to stroke the ball home on the end of a decent move, like v Blackpool. But 'best midfielder in the division' he is not. He is however one of the most expensive midfielders in the division and comes with a great reputation, one of which it's difficult to justify given the net worth he has shown in red and white. He's built like a brick shithouse - tall, rangy and sturdy looking but when put side by side with other central midfield playmakers like Matic and even Brown but to name a couple, the consistency of those players outshines Berge's by a massive gap. Let's also compare him to other midfield acquisitions we have made over the past few years since Coutts ... is he any better than him, or Lundstram (prior to 'toys out') or Norwood (ignoring his shit spell) or Fleck circa 2018-20, or even the moderate disappointment that was Keiron Dowell? The expectation of them, because they were either loaned or bought cheap was low, but the output has been consistent. With Berge, he cost us a lot more than that lot combined yet his output, when he's not broken, has been at their level if not below at times. If we are now officially duking it out with Burnley for top spot and maintaining the air gap between us and the chasing pack, we can't afford straphangers, and we can't excuse his lack of drive and grit away with pissy reasoning too. He's a professional footballer with a physio and conditioning team and diet/nutritionists aplenty, paid fucking exorbitant amounts and in a team likely to give him his second shot at playing in the best league in the world again. Three and a half matches now and he's 'just coming back from injury'? Really? Why is he not subbed then when he's looking out on his feet or feeling the injury again? I can't accept it. It's clear to me he is a hot/cold player who struggles with aspects of our game in a team which struggles to accommodate him as a player. It's as simple as that. Almost four seasons in now and he's still not returning the investment, mind you, that aint a high bar with Wilder's signings, is it?

I pray for some epiphany from him in the New Year and we see a load more drive, guts, determination and killer instinct from him because as it stands, Osborn with all his limitations shows more of that and McAtee/Doyle have it in bucketloads.

pommpey

 

[alcoblade]

Although it's stated this isn't aimed at anyone, the post has appeared post the latest 'My take ... ' and the backwash since I gave him a 3/10, so let's be truthful about what this is really about.

I'll be the first one to admit, Berge does have some capability. In possession he can turn on the potential and go past opposition defenders when he opens his stride. He's done it a few times in the second half in games at BDTBL on the right. He's also popped up in the box to stroke the ball home on the end of a decent move, like v Blackpool. But 'best midfielder in the division' he is not. He is however one of the most expensive midfielders in the division and comes with a great reputation, one of which it's difficult to justify given the net worth he has shown in red and white. He's built like a brick shithouse - tall, rangy and sturdy looking but when put side by side with other central midfield playmakers like Matic and even Brown but to name a couple, the consistency of those players outshines Berge's by a massive gap. Let's also compare him to other midfield acquisitions we have made over the past few years since Coutts ... is he any better than him, or Lundstram (prior to 'toys out') or Norwood (ignoring his shit spell) or Fleck circa 2018-20, or even the moderate disappointment that was Keiron Dowell? The expectation of them, because they were either loaned or bought cheap was low, but the output has been consistent. With Berge, he cost us a lot more than that lot combined yet his output, when he's not broken, has been at their level if not below at times. If we are now officially duking it out with Burnley for top spot and maintaining the air gap between us and the chasing pack, we can't afford straphangers, and we can't excuse his lack of drive and grit away with pissy reasoning too. He's a professional footballer with a physio and conditioning team and diet/nutritionists aplenty, paid fucking exorbitant amounts and in a team likely to give him his second shot at playing in the best league in the world again. Three and a half matches now and he's 'just coming back from injury'? Really? Why is he not subbed then when he's looking out on his feet or feeling the injury again? I can't accept it. It's clear to me he is a hot/cold player who struggles with aspects of our game in a team which struggles to accommodate him as a player. It's as simple as that. Almost four seasons in now and he's still not returning the investment, mind you, that aint a high bar with Wilder's signings, is it?

I pray for some epiphany from him in the New Year and we see a load more drive, guts, determination and killer instinct from him because as it stands, Osborn with all his limitations shows more of that and McAtee/Doyle have it in bucketloads.

pommpey

This.

 

[JJBlade]

Apart from his assist. And he did a pretty good job of bullying our defenders, TBF.

Madine is a good footballer, who lacks pace, which has set the limit of his career. I wouldn't be massively surprised to see us bring in a player like that in during January to give us some options up front for the run in

So we can hoof it ?
Never ceases to amaze me how this is classed as a "different option"

It's a desperate option that takes away an entire teams philosophy

We're already seeing this creeping into our play to some degree due to the team packing in every time they get in the lead.

It's also what managers do when they have a poor quality squad with very little football brains

Replacements and cover players should be like for like and build a method of playing so that everyone knows their job and keeps the continuity going

 

[pommpey]

Except its about Berge, you silly person.

pommpey

 

[Ned the Donkey]

There's no such thing as objective truth.

Isn't this a claim of an objective truth?

 

[dellasthunderbolt]

Although it's stated this isn't aimed at anyone, the post has appeared post the latest 'My take ... ' and the backwash since I gave him a 3/10, so let's be truthful about what this is really about.

I'll be the first one to admit, Berge does have some capability. In possession he can turn on the potential and go past opposition defenders when he opens his stride. He's done it a few times in the second half in games at BDTBL on the right. He's also popped up in the box to stroke the ball home on the end of a decent move, like v Blackpool. But 'best midfielder in the division' he is not. He is however one of the most expensive midfielders in the division and comes with a great reputation, one of which it's difficult to justify given the net worth he has shown in red and white. He's built like a brick shithouse - tall, rangy and sturdy looking but when put side by side with other central midfield playmakers like Matic and even Brown but to name a couple, the consistency of those players outshines Berge's by a massive gap. Let's also compare him to other midfield acquisitions we have made over the past few years since Coutts ... is he any better than him, or Lundstram (prior to 'toys out') or Norwood (ignoring his shit spell) or Fleck circa 2018-20, or even the moderate disappointment that was Keiron Dowell? The expectation of them, because they were either loaned or bought cheap was low, but the output has been consistent. With Berge, he cost us a lot more than that lot combined yet his output, when he's not broken, has been at their level if not below at times. If we are now officially duking it out with Burnley for top spot and maintaining the air gap between us and the chasing pack, we can't afford straphangers, and we can't excuse his lack of drive and grit away with pissy reasoning too. He's a professional footballer with a physio and conditioning team and diet/nutritionists aplenty, paid fucking exorbitant amounts and in a team likely to give him his second shot at playing in the best league in the world again. Three and a half matches now and he's 'just coming back from injury'? Really? Why is he not subbed then when he's looking out on his feet or feeling the injury again? I can't accept it. It's clear to me he is a hot/cold player who struggles with aspects of our game in a team which struggles to accommodate him as a player. It's as simple as that. Almost four seasons in now and he's still not returning the investment, mind you, that aint a high bar with Wilder's signings, is it?

I pray for some epiphany from him in the New Year and we see a load more drive, guts, determination and killer instinct from him because as it stands, Osborn with all his limitations shows more of that and McAtee/Doyle have it in bucketloads.

pommpey

This was really a post about all fans differing views and how narratives can sometimes alter perception. Feel free to adopt the narrative that this was in some way aimed at you - it wasn’t but I suppose that links to the topic.

 

[Lane Ender]

The only fans moaning about Sander Berge are the "up and at em crew" the sort of fans who the other night were wanting fucking Gary Madine back for Christ Sake, as a club we have moved on from such cloggers leave them at Blackpool and the like they are where they are for a reason. I'd much rather watch players who have the technical ability which always shines through if you match a cloggers work rate. Did Madine score the other night or do anything of not other than push and try to bully our defenders? NO.
Back to Sander Berge, absolute quality but he still has a few areas of his game that do need work, he can be too laid back you don't get so much time in the championship before a clogger is kicking lumps out of you and he needs to work on his heading which for a tall guy is frankly abysmal. Otherwise he is a joy to watch clearly a thinker who picks out the right pass without doing anything spectacular and breezes past defenders time after time. I do agree with those saying he doesn't get protection from referee's due to his size.

100%

 

[steve26272]

I think Berge has become one of those enigmatic players. He was a huge signing for us at around £20m and with that came all the expectations as he was apparently being courted by some major clubs and it was seen as a major coup that little old Sheffield United had signed this young star. On top of that, his sheer presence as a 6 foot 5 strapping lad gives the impression that he has the physicality to bully opposing players. I think most Blades fans envisioned a player who was going to tear up the league and produce barnstorming, game dominating, rampaging performances from centre midfield.

The reality is very different. I wrote on one of the many threads about Sander that he just isn't the player we envisioned he would be and we needed to adjust from our initial expectations. I suppose this confirms the 'confirmation bias' theory.

I would describe is playing style as 'laconic' or 'languid'. He gives that impression that he's not putting in 110%, however I'm sure that's not true. I think most of us can see he's got loads of ability, there are times where his skill and movement are a joy, however I think for most of us, it's frustrating that these are fleeting and for large parts of games he doesn't seem to be as involved as we think he should be or he seems to take too long to do things and gets caught. I also think he gets fouled a lot but doesn't get protection from refs, due to his size.

I like him though. He does score goals from midfield, an area where we previously lacked, but what I really like is that after 2 years of everyone saying he'll be off somewhere or other, he has never once said he's unhappy or wants a move and genuinely seems to enjoy playing for the club. He's a top professional if nothing else.

Agree with you on the languid style, he’s never going to rush round diving in and covering every inch of the pitch like a Jordan Henderson type, but I would say that’s what we need - would love to see a midfielder spoiler simply winning the ball with Berge and Norwood either side to pass to

On the OP - by sheer definition you watch your team with a preconceived slant - even when watching EPL games I take a bias, maybe a known player, good/bad or a team - who enjoys MOTD more when Forest have been stuffed 4-0?!

For that reason I enjoyed the World Cup, watching games where I genuinely didn’t give a fuck other than watching a football match made me realise what a wonderful game and spectacle it is….. when you don’t give a fuck.

 

[A_Bladesman]

Agree with you on the languid style, he’s never going to rush round diving in and covering every inch of the pitch like a Jordan Henderson type, but I would say that’s what we need - would love to see a midfielder spoiler simply winning the ball with Berge and Norwood either side to pass to

On the OP - by sheer definition you watch your team with a preconceived slant - even when watching EPL games I take a bias, maybe a known player, good/bad or a team - who enjoys MOTD more when Forest have been stuffed 4-0?!

For that reason I enjoyed the World Cup, watching games where I genuinely didn’t give a fuck other than watching a football match made me realise what a wonderful game and spectacle it is….. when you don’t give a fuck.

They sing songs about the boxing day massacre. Its all been investigated. Not so innocent piggy's, you've had pork chops and bacon and gammon, right? The night is still young.

 

[blade67]

So we can hoof it ?
Never ceases to amaze me how this is classed as a "different option"

It's a desperate option that takes away an entire teams philosophy

We're already seeing this creeping into our play to some degree due to the team packing in every time they get in the lead.

It's also what managers do when they have a poor quality squad with very little football brains

Replacements and cover players should be like for like and build a method of playing so that everyone knows their job and keeps the continuity going

So when we signed a player just like Madine in January of our last promotion was that because we had

a poor quality squad with very little football brains

That isn't how I saw it at all, even in league 1 when we signed Hanson (a player with much less ability than Madine), was that also a poor quality squad with very little football brains?

FWIW, I think you are miles off it.

 

[Frank the tank]

So when we signed a player just like Madine in January of our last promotion was that because we had

That isn't how I saw it at all, even in league 1 when we signed Hanson (a player with much less ability than Madine), was that also a poor quality squad with very little football brains?

FWIW, I think you are miles off it.

Dont think we need a madine he could never do what mcburnie did to burnley for example
We need mcburnie fit and another option for me a player with more mobility than sharp would fit right in billy of last year would be banging goals in as would a fit brewster who i still hold out hope will be a great player for us

 

[A_Bladesman]

Dont think we need a madine he could never do what mcburnie did to burnley for example
We need mcburnie fit and another option for me a player with more mobility than sharp would fit right in billy of last year would be banging goals in as would a fit brewster who i still hold out hope will be a great player for us

Brewster still injured, had a long term knee injury, his rehabilitation is progressing, ready to make starts. Maybe try his luck in Luton/Wandsworth.

 

[blade67]

Dont think we need a madine he could never do what mcburnie did to burnley for example
We need mcburnie fit and another option for me a player with more mobility than sharp would fit right in billy of last year would be banging goals in as would a fit brewster who i still hold out hope will be a great player for us

I agree that even peak Madine isn't at the same level as McBurnie. I was just saying I wouldn't be surprised to see that type of player come in. It would be great to loan in a big mobile forward from the EPL. If we can't do that, we'll be having to make compromises. I'd like to think we'll get another forward in regardless of how promising Brewster's recovery looks

 

[derfblade.3]

I'm afraid i can't get involved in this thread......too many big words.
I'm only from Shiregreen you know.

 

[JJBlade]

So when we signed a player just like Madine in January of our last promotion was that because we had

That isn't how I saw it at all, even in league 1 when we signed Hanson (a player with much less ability than Madine), was that also a poor quality squad with very little football brains?

FWIW, I think you are miles off it.

No
But we changed a style of play to accommodate them and it was boring even though we continued to get results

It wouldn't matter so much now because we've decided to win boringly anyway

 

[steve26272]

They sing songs about the boxing day massacre. Its all been investigated. Not so innocent piggy's, you've had pork chops and bacon and gammon, right? The night is still young.

Oh yes, best part of a Xmas dinner

You reckon theyclass it as cannibalism

 

[A Storm of Blades]

Isn't this a claim of an objective truth?

I eat food and sometime later a poo comes out of my arse. Objectively true. And if it isn’t, then society needs to justify why it constructed something that sinks that bad

 

[Sheff de party]

The only fans moaning about Sander Berge are the "up and at em crew" the sort of fans who the other night were wanting fucking Gary Madine back for Christ Sake, as a club we have moved on from such cloggers leave them at Blackpool and the like they are where they are for a reason. I'd much rather watch players who have the technical ability which always shines through if you match a cloggers work rate. Did Madine score the other night or do anything of not other than push and try to bully our defenders? NO.
Back to Sander Berge, absolute quality but he still has a few areas of his game that do need work, he can be too laid back you don't get so much time in the championship before a clogger is kicking lumps out of you and he needs to work on his heading which for a tall guy is frankly abysmal. Otherwise he is a joy to watch clearly a thinker who picks out the right pass without doing anything spectacular and breezes past defenders time after time. I do agree with those saying he doesn't get protection from referee's due to his size.

Madine set their goal up. So yes, he did do something. He was also a constant menace that Anel couldn’t handle so Clark had to follow him around.

 

[Sheff de party]

Recent talk of Berge’s performances (or either world beater or dog shit- never a reasoned middle ground) has got me wondering whether or not most of us watch football in a reasoned way or whether we approach the game with a predetermined narrative that we either for to the action we see or retrofit to our review of matches. This is not a dog at anyone rather a genuine question. I can’t now tell if I do one or the other. I watched the game th me other night and saw the aforementioned Norwegian as playing a fairly average game- others saw him be utter shite or a world beater on the way back from an injury. Can we all be right? I think this has happened throughout my time watching United, with scapegoats being the most obvious symptoms (ie forgetting how much Montgomery contributed besides Jagielka in midfield in our distant promotion season because he was most definitely a clogger who couldn’t kick a ball straight). And this phenomenon extends far beyond United. Think about the narrative around Keegan’s Newcastle and the great entertainers tag - now look back and see how they scored relatively few goals and based their success on a tight defence. So do we see the truth or simply what we want to see to confirm our own theories ( legend/waste of space)? Is Berge shite or brilliant or actually somewhere in the middle?

I think it’s just about expectations and how you see the game.

Some people want to see entertaining football first and foremost, others just want a win. Some people like a big commanding no nonsense centre half, others like a ball player. Some like towering centre forwards, others like the skill smaller players bring. Some say Gerrard was the complete midfielder, others say he was a Hollywood passer and rarely effective.

In our Blades group, I’m famed for saying Berge does great things but not often enough. One of the lads thinks our expectations of him are too high.

It’s an opinions game that people follow because they enjoy it. You get that in different ways and the moaning comes from frustration at not getting it. It’s what makes the game so interesting, because otherwise it’d be the same week after week, season after season.

 

[Andy67]

There's no such thing as objective truth. It's all socially constructed and subjective. Whether or not Berge is a good player isn't an inviolate fact which exists independently in the world, and nobody watching him does so free from the biases of their own perspective and the broader social contexts.

‘There’s no such thing as objective truth.’ Post-modernist clap-trap! I beg to differ

 

[Tezza1889]

I love sander, but I get very few games per season to enjoy his rolls royce style of football.. Because, injuries, I don't enjoy seeing him play as its every knock and you think that he'll be out next match.

And its this that will mean he never becomes a world class player, for me illiman has now gone miles past him.

For me Berge is comparable to Darren Anderton, weighs in with a goal or two then goes into the treatment room for few months.

I would compare him to le tissier, but he's really nowhere near as good as he was..

 

[highgreeninjapan]

Recent talk of Berge’s performances (or either world beater or dog shit- never a reasoned middle ground) has got me wondering whether or not most of us watch football in a reasoned way or whether we approach the game with a predetermined narrative that we either for to the action we see or retrofit to our review of matches. This is not a dog at anyone rather a genuine question. I can’t now tell if I do one or the other. I watched the game th me other night and saw the aforementioned Norwegian as playing a fairly average game- others saw him be utter shite or a world beater on the way back from an injury. Can we all be right? I think this has happened throughout my time watching United, with scapegoats being the most obvious symptoms (ie forgetting how much Montgomery contributed besides Jagielka in midfield in our distant promotion season because he was most definitely a clogger who couldn’t kick a ball straight). And this phenomenon extends far beyond United. Think about the narrative around Keegan’s Newcastle and the great entertainers tag - now look back and see how they scored relatively few goals and based their success on a tight defence. So do we see the truth or simply what we want to see to confirm our own theories ( legend/waste of space)? Is Berge shite or brilliant or actually somewhere in the middle?

I think it’s an interesting question and an interesting post. My thought when reading was that maybe you are the narrative type, in that you’ve created a narrative around the narrative!

I know this is not specifically about Pompey’s most recent “My Take”, but it’s a good example. Although he gave Berge a very low score for the game, I feel like the majority of posts on that thread are arguing that although Berge wasn’t amazing, he wasn’t terrible either. I think most said he had a decent first half, but an anonymous second half. Granted, Pompey’s is a welcome and important voice on this board so his views get a bit more prominence, but despite what you feel, I think most people are actually in the “reasoned middle ground”. It’s just human nature to have our attention attracted to the “extremes”.

 

[robbiez666]

Berge has some of the abilities to be a quality player but also some glaring weaknesses (head it Sander ffs).

The problem is, he hides. It's rare he dominates games for more than short spells. While he's good to have, without doubt, he's not a player who makes a difference most games.

Not to mention going missing and having a pretty poor injury record.

I think we could bring someone in for a fraction of his worth who would be better in our system without being anywhere near as good potentially as a player. When we went up with Wilder, we had players who added to the overall team.

Also, if we do go up, I'm not sure he'll be much use in a team with little possession.