Things we’ve learned from this transfer window

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Flatulent_Bob said:
Are you able to elaborate? The criteria seems quite clear based on his appearances last season. If different criteria needs to be followed surely that needs to be clarified.
If he failed to meet the published criteria then where? He had the appearances to make it over 15 points.
If I’m ignorant of the facts I’d welcome education but based on what we have published it doesn’t follow.

robbiez666 - you’ll be interested in this.
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The league the player plays in weighted higher than number of appearances. Parma being in Serie B rather than Serie A was probably the crux of the issue
 
jono_t2000 said:
The league the player plays in weighted higher than number of appearances. Parma being in Serie B rather than Serie A was probably the crux of the issue
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But it’s the last season, so Serie A, hence why I’ve asked for the clarification. They’ve only had a couple of games this season and he hasn’t played.
 
What is it with some posters on here that view situations as a dichotomy. Transfers were a success and people are bedwetters. Or the transfers show a complete failure of strategy. The opinions can land on a spectrum between either place and should be respected as views that maybe valid. Name calling and professing that others posts are based on ignorance shows an unwillingness entertain another point of view that may differ. I understand that it is a forum where people want to discuss their opinions but it is not constructive debate to disregard the legitimacy of another point of view.
 
Booker4 said:
We'll always miss out on some of our targets, I'm ok with that but if like to know, like we all would, how soon the players that we missed out on we were working on as deals. Why no permanent players coming in? Bournemouth have shown the way with the recruitment of Christie and Lowe, two players id have loved us to get. I think owen dale at Crewe will prove to be sound business by Blackpool too. I don't think it's good for the team dynamic to have too many loans.
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The players you mention may be decent but wouldn't make the step up to premier league standard if we get promoted so what is the point in buying them?
 
All I’ve learnt from this window is the future of our club financially is very very precarious.

We are loaning everything selling people to pay the bills.
 
Just been sent this. Don't have a Twatter account so can't delve deeper. Anyone?

Edit: Just noticed it being discussed in depth on another thread so deleted it. Nothing to see here.
 
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Prem owner needed said:
In all honesty, I can't see the current manager being here much longer TBH and I don't believe that the salary will keep him either. The sceptic within me thinks that all we did with the loan signings is: -

Replacement for a under performing Fleck - CH / tick.
Replacement for a Duffy type player - MGW / tick.
Replacement for JOC - BD / tick.
Replacement for Henderson/Ramsdale - RO / tick.

This just amounts to a (hopeful punt by the club) upgrade of the current players in an attempt to reignite the 3-5-2 system, that they believe is the cheap option to get the playing side moving again, and on the plus side (and I do believe that this has been seriously considered), if the manager goes, then Heck sausage is in the building to continue on from CW, with this system.
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A good manager can play different systems. And as many good managers have said recently, the formation on paper isn't necessarily as important as how and what players actually do on the pitch.

You've outlined that we've strengthened the squad. The way I'm seeing it... We have a strong Championship squad.

Yes I was expecting pacey wingers, but with those additions there's no reason/excuse not to do pretty well over the course of 46 league matches.
 
Scousewig said:
The players you mention may be decent but wouldn't make the step up to premier league standard if we get promoted so what is the point in buying them?
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We need to get up first! Not so sure that they wouldn't make the step up either, Christie had been a standout player fur a while in Scotland and he's done well for Scotland on the international stage. Dale is young and can improve. If they did well they'll be takers for them anyway. Obviously we need to buy decent players and I think Christie and dale will do well, we'll discuss this at the end of the season mate!
 
There’s a good article in the Athletic that sheds more light on many of the points in this thread, the key points were…..

1. The money for the Brewster transfer wasn’t in last seasons original budget so no doubt we have to find it out of this years.
2. Our transfer plan for this season was based on selling Berge for his £35m release clause, we had no definite approach apart from Napoli for a much lower figure that we refused.
3. We wanted quality so had to wait for them to become available. GW only became available very late in the window for example.
4. We have got money and bid £5m for Rajkovic from Reims but Olsen was always our number one target.
5. We also turned down £5m for Jebbison, another signal that although we need to be prudent financially we are not in dire straits.
6. The loan fees and wages are not insignificant as all the players are on Premiership wages which we are covering in full, it said we paid £500k to Liverpool for the Davies loan.
7. Also says the transfer plans had to be changed as the original plan was evolution then a few games ago Slav said we needed a Revolution!

it is frustrating we waited until the end but I guess we have got better quality players as a result, it’s all a gamble whichever strategy you choose.
 

Well, at least we got some fresh blood in!!!!!!!! Yes , we missed out on two others, greedy agent's, and not checking work permit regs properly. Question now is, will Slav drop Fleck , Norwood?????? Berge will be out due to covid. Our Algerian friend to be signed, maybe????? Decisions, decisions.
 
Perhaps even the Prince has changed his mind on Slav. I get the feeling he doesn’t want to throw large sums of money at a manager, he maybe thinks won’t be going the distance.
 
john Mathison said:
Well, at least we got some fresh blood in!!!!!!!! Yes , we missed out on two others, greedy agent's, and not checking work permit regs properly. Question now is, will Slav drop Fleck , Norwood?????? Berge will be out due to covid. Our Algerian friend to be signed, maybe????? Decisions, decisions.
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Good point ..... I think that if we do not use the new signings to build a fresh midfield, there will be a lot of pissed off supporters, as it's very clear that the current midfield doesn't work ...... crap defensively and absolutely no service to the strikers :rolleyes:

UTB & FTP
 
Flatulent_Bob said:
Are you able to elaborate? The criteria seems quite clear based on his appearances last season. If different criteria needs to be followed surely that needs to be clarified.
If he failed to meet the published criteria then where? He had the appearances to make it over 15 points.
If I’m ignorant of the facts I’d welcome education but based on what we have published it doesn’t follow.

robbiez666 - you’ll be interested in this.
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This is in no way gospel and I can't see anything different to anyone else where a GBE is required as the criteria is freely available online but on 1st glances it looked like he should qualify easily as he played quite a few games for Parma in Seria A last season and that is a Band A league.

I think where the waters got muddied/confusing (although someone highly paid at the club should surely have known/been able to find out) is that Parma were relegated and Seria B is way down the bandings list so on that criteria his points will have dropped significantly.

Now the bit I don't know is if the scores are taken from last season, which they should be as a large portion of the score is made up from minutes played, or from this season.

My view is that the points should be scored on the last full season but I don't make the rules. If they were he had 18 points min and would have qualified.
 
Flatulent_Bob said:
Are you able to advise which element of the criteria he fell foul of or is it just a re-reporting of Italians press claims so could be lost in translation? Ie we stopped the deal due to the maximum loans allowed in a matchday squad.


thanks
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Sutcliffe in the Athletic wrote this earlier:

An agreement was reached in principle to sign Barcelona’s Alex Collado on loan for the season only for a late request to change the terms of the deal to prompt United to walk away.

Parma’s Yann Karamoh was another very much on Jokanovic’s shopping list only for complex rules following Brexit to scupper his hopes of a work permit. Such is the minefield of regulations that clubs now have to negotiate when trying to sign players from the EU that Collado being an unused substitute at the Nou Camp three times in 2020-21 carried more weight than the 24 Serie A appearances made by Karamoh, due to Parma having since dropped into the Italian second tier.
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It doesn't look like it was as simple as "we forgot to check if he had enough points to qualify", but at the same time, still probably something we could have had an awareness of well in advance.

(Full thing behind paywall here: https://theathletic.com/2797884/202...-jokanovics-window/?source=emp-shared-article)

edit - Upton_Blade has gone into more detail on it, just as I was writing this :)
 
Beans said:
Sutcliffe in the Athletic wrote this earlier:



It doesn't look like it was as simple as "we forgot to check if he had enough points to qualify", but at the same time, still probably something we could have had an awareness of well in advance.

(Full thing behind paywall here: https://theathletic.com/2797884/202...-jokanovics-window/?source=emp-shared-article)

edit - Upton_Blade has gone into more detail on it, just as I was writing this :)
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Haha not sure there's that much more detail ;)

I think my overall view is that if they are wanting to go down the foreign route, and good god have we not all been crying out for that for the last few years, then they should have someone at the club that is all over the current rules and regs so the only players we identify and go for are ones that have no chance of not qualifying.

That being said the whole point of the GBE's is to stop teams buying cheap, sub standard players from abroad and potentially stifling home gown talent in the process. The idea is that we only allow players of a certain quality to qualify hence the different foreign league bandings. It's only right that we differentiate a player with 20 apps for a team in Seria A, The Bundesliga, La Liga etc from a player with 20 apps in say The Chilean 4th division (don't know whether that exists but you get my drift).

My issue is that if the reason for the break down is due to the fact Parma were relegated then the season is only a few weeks old and absolutely no chance of getting the required points however the player in his last full season got more than enough points so surely this would be a better way of doing it? Or like the Manager GBE's whereby it's a certain criteria over the last 5 years.

My final point is that this is the perfect example of a case that would probably have been successful on appeal, see above, but because we left it far too late in the window there was no chance of us risking it on the off chance of that when money's tight. Poor planning maybe???
 
Upton_Blade said:
Haha not sure there's that much more detail ;)

I think my overall view is that if they are wanting to go down the foreign route, and good god have we not all been crying out for that for the last few years, then they should have someone at the club that is all over the current rules and regs so the only players we identify and go for are ones that have no chance of not qualifying.

That being said the whole point of the GBE's is to stop teams buying cheap, sub standard players from abroad and potentially stifling home gown talent in the process. The idea is that we only allow players of a certain quality to qualify hence the different foreign league bandings. It's only right that we differentiate a player with 20 apps for a team in Seria A, The Bundesliga, La Liga etc from a player with 20 apps in say The Chilean 4th division (don't know whether that exists but you get my drift).

My issue is that if the reason for the break down is due to the fact Parma were relegated then the season is only a few weeks old and absolutely no chance of getting the required points however the player in his last full season got more than enough points so surely this would be a better way of doing it? Or like the Manager GBE's whereby it's a certain criteria over the last 5 years.

My final point is that this is the perfect example of a case that would probably have been successful on appeal, see above, but because we left it far too late in the window there was no chance of us risking it on the off chance of that when money's tight. Poor planning maybe???
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and this is why I think it would be good for the journos to get clarity before leading the fans to point fingers at the club. Surely it's not hard to get someone to explain where it fell down, what element he failed to meet?
If the line about it's this season counting is the problem then theoretically Ronaldo could have been blocked from joining Man Utd because he hasn't played in the first 2 games of the season, therefore his total minutes is 0%. He's still get 12 points for Serie A but what if he missed the last Portugal game is he no longer getting points for that? It's insane, of course it should include the previous season, and the criteria says just that.
 
MagnifiqueShorehamStreet said:
I have no info on the details, other than what was reported in the media, as the reason for the deal collapsing.
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Not played enough top level games I believe. Bit like the lad we looked at for manager- hadn’t managed enough in a league that classified for the criteria. Basically harder to obtain a permit now we are out of the EU.
 
Flatulent_Bob said:
and this is why I think it would be good for the journos to get clarity before leading the fans to point fingers at the club. Surely it's not hard to get someone to explain where it fell down, what element he failed to meet?
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I couldn't agree more mate. I think the hacks have a lot to answer for in that respect but then the papers are so on the arse nowadays it's no wonder they've gone down the clickbait route.

Another point along the same sort of lines in the hacks linking us with players just for clicks. Our fans then get exited and said player becomes the great saviour we need. Said player then either goes elsewhere or stays put cue uproar towards the club for lack of ambition, no money etc when in fact there was zero evidence we were ever interested.

Prime example was Dembele in this window. Really can't remember where the 1st link came from but all of a sudden he's just what we need, awesome player etc etc. Then a story is leaked that he has a £3.5m release clause cue bargain, we should be all over that etc etc. Only then does someone do the sensible and ask their chairman out right knowing he's pretty good at engaging with people. Guess what? There's no release clause and £3.5m wouldn't get him as worth more to help relegation bid. Someone then asked him if there'd been any contact from SU. None was the answer.

Flatulent_Bob said:
If the line about it's this season counting is the problem then theoretically Ronaldo could have been blocked from joining Man Utd because he hasn't played in the first 2 games of the season, therefore his total minutes is 0%. He's still get 12 points for Serie A but what if he missed the last Portugal game is he no longer getting points for that? It's insane, of course it should include the previous season, and the criteria says just that.
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Going to be honest I haven't checked the rules in detail since they 1st appeared last year. I just retained the knowledge around the points system. If the criteria says last year counts then he qualified so not quite sure why that excuse was given.

It possibly looks like they thought they had the Barca kid sown up and that would have made 6 loans so pulled out of this one citing Visa issues. If that's the case then they've mismanaged the situation IMHO. Better to get a quality winger in and then worry about what to do about the next one than end up without either.
 
I learned that much can happen in last day.. I was prepared to the idea we only sign Geudiora and hoped that he will boost our midfield a bit, but now we have handful of good looking loanies (is that a word?) even we barely missed those 2 wingers.

My hopes are honestly higher than I thought and I just can't wait to see how the team looks like after international break.
Btw, how does the COVID-rules go, is Berge available in our next game?
 
FinBlade said:
I learned that much can happen in last day.. I was prepared to the idea we only sign Geudiora and hoped that he will boost our midfield a bit, but now we have handful of good looking loanies (is that a word?) even we barely missed those 2 wingers.

My hopes are honestly higher than I thought and I just can't wait to see how the team looks like after international break.
Btw, how does the COVID-rules go, is Berge available in our next game?
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10 days isolation so in theory he can play, but he can't train with the squad until late in the week prior to game. You would think that we'll be doing a fair bit of shape work given the new recruits and the fact we're all hoping they form our new midfield.
 
Jacobsenthecrab said:
4. We have got money and bid £5m for Rajkovic from Reims but Olsen was always our number one target.
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This is the advantage of being more open to overseas deals.

The stars aligned a bit with Ramsdale in terms of the Euros, him having a good end to the season and Edu being keen to get a home grown keeper. There was also a period of months where his value looked to have dipped below what we paid.

But 18.5m was still a big slice of the budget when you consider the things we didn't do i.e. replace O'Connell, put Lundstram out to grass and invest more in the Academy and Training infrastructure.

If our time came again, who would still allocate 18.5m to Rammers if your alternative was say the Swedish no 1 on loan for the year or the highly rated top flight keeper for Reims at around the 5m mark and have plenty of change to fix some of those items neglected above?
 

Flatulent_Bob said:
I’m going to need you explain which transfer failed due to work permit issues. If you could point out where they didn’t get enough points to qualify that would help because I think your comment is entirely ignorant and inaccurate.
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Maybe I’m not so ignorant after all, hey Bob?
 
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