The Ndiaye Paradox

[Tony_Kaufman]

I just want to throw a little question out about Iliman Ndiaye.

I've read so many comments throughout the season from fans saying that we'd have been much better with Ndiaye, as we'd have kept the ball better etc.

However, I have a counter argument to this theory. Ndiaye has obviously struggled at Marseille and the dream move hasn't quite gone to plan and his productivity has significantly dropped since he left us. There are rumours that Marseille may offload in the summer.

Now, my point is this. Ligue 1 is considered an inferior league to the Premier League, but for a couple of teams including Marseille, but it is considered a better league than the Championship. So if Ndiaye has struggled for Marseille where he is surrounded by some top class players in a league inferior to the Premier League, then why would he have made a difference for us this season in the superior Premier League?

 

[thehet]

What does it matter?

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

What does it matter?

It doesn't, but I like open rational conversation and debate and like to understand the logic behind some of the threads or posts that I read. I'm just throwing out a thought that I've not read or seen considered when it comes to the loss of Iliman.

Do I think we'd have stayed up if Berge and Ndiaye had stayed? No. Not a chance.

 

[thehet]

It doesn't, but I like open rational conversation and debate and like to understand the logic behind some of the threads or posts that I read. I'm just throwing out a thought that I've not read or seen considered when it comes to the loss of Iliman.

Do I think we'd have stayed up if Berge and Ndiaye had stayed? No. Not a chance.

I’d consider most of the championship superior to league 1 bar PSG.

I think most people wanted Ndiaye to stay because he’s the best player we have ever had, and by default would have given us a better chance. The general ‘paradox’ is irrelevant mind you, because he could have signed and got injured in the first game. His sale is not the reason we have gone down.

 

[SwissBlade]

I just want to throw a little question out about Iliman Ndiaye.

I've read so many comments throughout the season from fans saying that we'd have been much better with Ndiaye, as we'd have kept the ball better etc.

However, I have a counter argument to this theory. Ndiaye has obviously struggled at Marseille and the dream move hasn't quite gone to plan and his productivity has significantly dropped since he left us. There are rumours that Marseille may offload in the summer.

Now, my point is this. Ligue 1 is considered an inferior league to the Premier League, but for a couple of teams including Marseille, but it is considered a better league than the Championship. So if Ndiaye has struggled for Marseille where he is surrounded by some top class players in a league inferior to the Premier League, then why would he have made a difference for us this season in the superior Premier League?

Good question.

Ndiaye was a top player for us. Was lined up as the poster boy for this season, but he rejected it. That’s ok

He believed in his dream at Marseille, I thought it was too much, too soon, many others thought and said the same. It was his dream move, a big one. Even if the club and league were not huge, it was his dream and that’s something we can never deny anyone. Go for it, Ilyman.

I think he would’ve struggled this season with us, looking at how negative we set up under Hecky. Ndiaye and Berge wouldn’t have helped too much, especially with the injuries.

As for Ndiaye, I think he will do well, probably needs a move to a Prem, Serie A or Bundesliga club to progress, but in hindsight he was right to move. He got a Euro semi out of it and probably less demanding season, physically. So he’ll be fit for next season

 

[Younger Dryas Blade]

You could say the same about Agana going to Notts Co and Deano going to Leeds. Sometimes a player and a club are entangled, just made for each other.
I think Illy maybe regretting his move, should have told Drogba I'm a Blade, fuck off, I'm going to try and keep my club in the Prem.

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

Going slightly off topic, but it's funny really because our fans have been deservedly critical of the club for selling him and yet arguably he's been our greatest piece of business. We paid very little to get him from Boreham Wood in 2017 and sold him only six years later for reportedly £20mil.

That's the kind of scouting and recruitment we need to see more of. This is Brentford territory. Not all will work but somewhere out there are gems ready to be polished and sold off for significant profits. What you do with the profits is the more important question after.

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

We would still have been relegated. If we had kept Ndiaye and Berge even. As a result we would have made no permanent signings and therefore wouldn’t have improved on last season, which would have put us 19th I think. We would have finished above Burnley but still way off Forest.

 

[Carlton Blade]

I just want to throw a little question out about Iliman Ndiaye.

I've read so many comments throughout the season from fans saying that we'd have been much better with Ndiaye, as we'd have kept the ball better etc.

However, I have a counter argument to this theory. Ndiaye has obviously struggled at Marseille and the dream move hasn't quite gone to plan and his productivity has significantly dropped since he left us. There are rumours that Marseille may offload in the summer.

Now, my point is this. Ligue 1 is considered an inferior league to the Premier League, but for a couple of teams including Marseille, but it is considered a better league than the Championship. So if Ndiaye has struggled for Marseille where he is surrounded by some top class players in a league inferior to the Premier League, then why would he have made a difference for us this season in the superior Premier League?

Less touches, bonkers club in transition, a team that doesn't press (taking away one of his biggest strengths, winning it back early). But most of all, a team not built around him.

Unless you're talking about the best players in the world, circumstances matter. You watched him play. You've seen worse players than him be solid PL contributors.

Of course he makes a huge difference

 

[Sithblade]

You could say the same about Agana going to Notts Co and Deano going to Leeds. Sometimes a player and a club are entangled, just made for each other.
I think Illy maybe regretting his move, should have told Drogba I'm a Blade, fuck off, I'm going to try and keep my club in the Prem.

Some players perform better as the big fish in a little pond as opposed to the opposite.
Really thought Deane would smash it at Leeds, didn't have to do the donkey work of going out wide like with us. He had Strachan, McAllister, Speed to create for him and Wallace and Yeboah as strike partners but he never moved up a level like he should have done.

 

[FinBlade]

I think and have said that we weren't a team that could had support Ndiaye to success this season, no matter how good he is by nature. He had better surroundings to success in Marseille not to mention the motivation and hunger to shine for his favourite club.

Our doom wasn't in hands of one (or two) player(s) and we really need more than Ndiaye to rebound from this experience.

 

[Keen Blade]

We might not have stayed up but I would have had my hero to cheer on as he entertained me , instead of watching a team of nobodies capitulate every week

 

[JJ Sefton]

I just want to throw a little question out about Iliman Ndiaye.

I've read so many comments throughout the season from fans saying that we'd have been much better with Ndiaye, as we'd have kept the ball better etc.

However, I have a counter argument to this theory. Ndiaye has obviously struggled at Marseille and the dream move hasn't quite gone to plan and his productivity has significantly dropped since he left us. There are rumours that Marseille may offload in the summer.

Now, my point is this. Ligue 1 is considered an inferior league to the Premier League, but for a couple of teams including Marseille, but it is considered a better league than the Championship. So if Ndiaye has struggled for Marseille where he is surrounded by some top class players in a league inferior to the Premier League, then why would he have made a difference for us this season in the superior Premier League?

We’d have been fractionally better with him, but he’d have been worth maybe three points over the season, nowhere near enough to make a material difference.

 

[Houston_Blade]

We might have been relegated, but we might have come out of preseason with a bit of belief rather than feeling sorry for ourselves as a club from day one and not got 16 points and conceded 101+ goals.

 

[loyalblade95]

You could argue that we would have scored more goals and possibly picked up a few extra points, I doubt it would have been enough to keep us up though.

The gap between the championship and the premier league (especially with the money being thrown about) is too big for most teams. Us and Burnley are down and Luton are pretty much down as well.

Problem is that if Forest and Everton didn't lose their points then we would have gone down after Burnley beat us while Burnley and Luton would have also been relegated by now.

 

[Champagneblade]

I’d say at United, the team was effectively built around him.

That’s not to say we recruited based on him, but more that he was afforded a role which got the best out of his assets and optimised his involvement.

At Marseille, he’s had to fit into a style they already had.

The ‘1’ in 3-5-1-1 allowed him to attack, drop deep, run from deep, press etc. has he a role exactly the same at Marseille? I don’t think he has.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Players do better at different clubs due to a myriad of reasons. It's no where near as simple as "Ndiaye isn't doing well at Marseille ergo he wouldn't have done well at SUFC in the Prem". Systems, compatibility with the club, style of play, status, mental or fitness issues. The list goes on and on and on.

Frankly, I don't meed evidence of Ndiaye performing well at Marseille to prove to me he's a top class player. I've seen it with my own eyes. He could precipitavely drop down the leagues from this point onwards. My opinion wouldn't change 1%. Messi went to PSG and was nowhere near as effective as he was in a tougher league in Spain. He was then the best player at a World Cup when he was "past it" according to the great and good.

 

[finlaytheblade]

I just want to throw a little question out about Iliman Ndiaye.

I've read so many comments throughout the season from fans saying that we'd have been much better with Ndiaye, as we'd have kept the ball better etc.

However, I have a counter argument to this theory. Ndiaye has obviously struggled at Marseille and the dream move hasn't quite gone to plan and his productivity has significantly dropped since he left us. There are rumours that Marseille may offload in the summer.

Now, my point is this. Ligue 1 is considered an inferior league to the Premier League, but for a couple of teams including Marseille, but it is considered a better league than the Championship. So if Ndiaye has struggled for Marseille where he is surrounded by some top class players in a league inferior to the Premier League, then why would he have made a difference for us this season in the superior Premier League?

He wouldn't have kept us up! Still would have made a big difference to our performances ! More competitive ! he was our main man so would definitely made us a lot better in my opinion. The gap is so big we would still have ben relegated.

 

[Rodley]

A single player wouldn’t keep us up. But if we’d have retained Berge and Ndiaye and then actually strengthened like promoted teams usually do, we would have had a chance. Everton, Forest etc would be games we would have got results.

 

[blademan31]

Has his move to Marseille been as much as a flop as we’re making out? Appreciate his goal tally is low but he seems to start most games including the recent Europa League semi final. They clearly rate him, albeit he is subbed almost every game, but with 5 subs these days and him playing in an attacking position it’s not that uncommon.

It was a great move for him, Marseille are a huge club.

 

[Maurice Maurice]

I’d consider most of the championship superior to league 1 bar PSG.

I think most people wanted Ndiaye to stay because he’s the best player we have ever had, and by default would have given us a better chance. The general ‘paradox’ is irrelevant mind you, because he could have signed and got injured in the first game. His sale is not the reason we have gone down.

Hahahaha, the best player we have ever had. In the last two seasons maybe but if you actually believe that shit, you must be 12.

 

[CPB]

I just want to throw a little question out about Iliman Ndiaye.

I've read so many comments throughout the season from fans saying that we'd have been much better with Ndiaye, as we'd have kept the ball better etc.

However, I have a counter argument to this theory. Ndiaye has obviously struggled at Marseille and the dream move hasn't quite gone to plan and his productivity has significantly dropped since he left us. There are rumours that Marseille may offload in the summer.

Now, my point is this. Ligue 1 is considered an inferior league to the Premier League, but for a couple of teams including Marseille, but it is considered a better league than the Championship. So if Ndiaye has struggled for Marseille where he is surrounded by some top class players in a league inferior to the Premier League, then why would he have made a difference for us this season in the superior Premier League?

I think he would have fared better here.
We gave him an effective position and role.

Thing is at Marseille he's been played a bit all over the place. To start with as a winger.

We knew what he was like and how to get the best out of him. I don't think they do.

I think if he had stayed (willingly) then we would have seen some improved results and performances.
By how much who knows.

 

[finlaytheblade]

I think he would have fared better here.
We gave him an effective position and role.

Thing is at Marseille he's been played a bit all over the place. To start with as a winger.

We knew what he was like and how to get the best out of him. I don't think they do.

I think if he had stayed (willingly) then we would have seen some improved results and performances.
By how much who knows.

Yes CPD he would have made a difference just wouldn't have been enough.

Forest spent a fortune and will just stay up ,Burnley spent a packet and still go .
I maybe controversial but !
Was the Prince a wise man
not spending what Money the prem has afforded us
trying to Keep us up !
It does give us the opportunity to rebuild for another crack at it.
The opposite would have been to spend it trying! leaving us with an empty pot! In the same position we were in after our last effort in the prem?
New team new division.

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

Pressure, expectation, price tag, out of position, not wanting to let anyone down, make sure you get the ball to Aubameyang, settling his family into a new home, are all factors to consider in the return to OM.

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

My take is that very few Blades fans expected to stay up this season. But we had hoped for the excitement that a return to the PL should bring. Fans are waiting for the fixture list, looking to see their best players try and step up a level, looking to a few exciting new signings with an injection of money, looking to be plucky amongst the big boys of the elite.

We had none of that, we had the better two players sold, and frugal spending, poor recruitment, late recruitment. The hope and excitement you feel about being promoted to the PL was taken away very early doors.

Even with Illy and Sander, we weren't expecting to stay up, but we were hoping to surprise a few. With Illy here, he may have struggled, but he would've been the main man, free to express himself, with bags of patience and admiration from our fans, who for many, consider him the most naturally gifted youngster at SUFC in their lifetime. We'd have loved his work rate, his brilliant attitude, his pressing and tracking back and in the middle of that, we'd have seen those moments of magic too, and that Illy whip celebration a few times, I'm sure. Most fans would've been grounded, IMO, as we struggled to stay up regardless - as we'd see that as being due to fewer resources in the richest league in the world.

Then, undoubtedly, we'd be gearing up for him being sold to a PL club this summer, I'm sure.

 

[3Cheers4Ramirez]

We'd have been 6 or 7 points better off and wouldn't have completely embarrassed ourselves. Which is surely worth more than 17m, especially if we finished 18th instead of 20th (prize money)

There are numerous reasons I think he's not done great at Marseille. Pressure, expectation, system, position - he's usually been shoved to the right side and it's noticeable how they don't press as far up as we did. Ligue 1 is also harder than the championship. But the main thing might be how he's so reliably subbed off after 60 mins, when he's needed time to play his way into a new team. They need to commit to him and trust him. They haven't and they don't. So he's still barely settled

They'd be mad to get rid of him but a season's about as much as you get at that club so I wouldn't be surprised if they do

I think English football suits him better and he'd actually perform better in the PL

 

[Proper Blade]

I just want to throw a little question out about Iliman Ndiaye.

I've read so many comments throughout the season from fans saying that we'd have been much better with Ndiaye, as we'd have kept the ball better etc.

However, I have a counter argument to this theory. Ndiaye has obviously struggled at Marseille and the dream move hasn't quite gone to plan and his productivity has significantly dropped since he left us. There are rumours that Marseille may offload in the summer.

Now, my point is this. Ligue 1 is considered an inferior league to the Premier League, but for a couple of teams including Marseille, but it is considered a better league than the Championship. So if Ndiaye has struggled for Marseille where he is surrounded by some top class players in a league inferior to the Premier League, then why would he have made a difference for us this season in the superior Premier League?

Whenever I watched Marseille this season Ndiaye was playing in a different position. Sometimes as a striker, sometimes a left winger, most often deployed on the right wing. That can't be helpful for him, as he is clearly not a right winger for example. The manager who signed him also got sacked a few months into the season.

Whereas with us we basically gave him free rein to do what he wanted to do. I don't think he would have been a 20-goal a season man or anything, but I struggle to believe he wouldn't have made an impact given how good he was in the Championship.

 

[Silent Blade]

I think most people wanted Ndiaye to stay because he’s the best player we have ever had

I was very upset when he left us and still am but for me TC is our best player since I started watching the Blades in 1970. Ndiaye had the chance for me to change my mind as I wanted to see how well he played in the top tier but he chose to listen to his agent and advisers.

 

[Ned the Donkey]

Players do better at different clubs due to a myriad of reasons. It's no where near as simple as "Ndiaye isn't doing well at Marseille ergo he wouldn't have done well at SUFC in the Prem". Systems, compatibility with the club, style of play, status, mental or fitness issues. The list goes on and on and on.

Frankly, I don't need evidence of Ndiaye performing well at Marseille to prove to me he's a top class player

Every now and then someone writes something that cuts through all the bollocks and bullshit to something that should, in fact, be blindingly fucking obvious.

Player is good. Player is bad so utterly mind-numbingly one-dimensional.

A million things came together to make Iliman the player he was last year. He was the best player I've seen in 50+ years.

If somehow he ended up back here next season, I imagine he wouldn't be half the player, for all sorts of reasons.

I'm just glad I saw him last season. I hope it works out for him somewhere, but I don't think that will be here.

Great post.

 

[Varkanoid]

I’d say at United, the team was effectively built around him.

That’s not to say we recruited based on him, but more that he was afforded a role which got the best out of his assets and optimised his involvement.

At Marseille, he’s had to fit into a style they already had.

The ‘1’ in 3-5-1-1 allowed him to attack, drop deep, run from deep, press etc. has he a role exactly the same at Marseille? I don’t think he has.

Agree with this. Ndiaye already had a place in our team with team mates he knew. There was already that bond. They knew each other and their strengths. Marseille are not playing him to his strengths and it seems to be a very bad fit.

Would we have still gone down who knows I dont think we would have been as shite as we are but if buts were ifs and ifs were buts and I's were why's and why's were I's we would be a rich team.

I wanted to see how well he played in the top tier but he chose to listen to his agent and advisers.

Agree with this also.