The message from the board is clear: Failure is unacceptable

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Nick Jansky said:
What has the club said?
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I think the Selles appointment is all but confirmed. Removing the most successful manager of the current generation after a year of rebuilding, and then replacing him for finishing 3rd, with a huge points tally even after -2, sends a message that 3rd isn’t good enough. That doesn’t come from the fans, that’s from the owners. Without saying a word.

If they come out with things like this is a mid term plan to generate success beyond your wildest dreams, but we’re sat 7th-12th in Oct playing turgid football, it would be no surprise to see fans getting a little annoyed

There is also the argument of why the short, mid and long term plan couldn’t have involved Wilder, a man who gave us some of the best football I’ve watched at United as well as being successful.

Selles may prove to be the man to say “Wilder who?” But right now the jury is out when we did so well last season it inevitably creates concern that we’re messing with something which works.
 

Rodley said:
Massive gamble, massive reward.

Let’s hope they spend big this summer, we get the business done early, and then it’s over to Selles to get us over the line.
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Of course and I think if we were talking of someone with a better record than Wilder everyone would be on board.

As you say it’s likely to need big spending for this unknown to stand a chance of working…

I hope that the gamble pays off for the club…
 
SwissBlade said:
Of course and I think if we were talking of someone with a better record than Wilder everyone would be on board.

As you say it’s likely to need big spending for this unknown to stand a chance of working…

I hope that the gamble pays off for the club…
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We’re shit or bust this season. I can only think we’re going to spend big, otherwise you wouldn’t pull such a radical move with such a short window.

Looking forward to seeing how it all plays out. The rollercoaster analogy was the only thing Adkin’s got right.
 
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Rodley said:
I think if we’re not in the autos or very close come December, Selles will be sacked.

He needs to beat CW’s points record / get promotion or it’s a failure and a c.£40m drop in revenue is on the cards.
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So he doesn’t need to beat Wilder’s points record to succeed, just needs to get in play offs and win it.
 
Rodley said:
We’re shit or bust this season. I can only think we’re going to spend big, otherwise you wouldn’t pull such a radical move with such a short window.

Looking forward to seeing how it all plays out. The rollercoaster analogy was the only thing Adkin’s got right.
Click to expand...
It certainly seems like self sabotage. Too late now though, it’s done regardless as Selles will be the man in the dug out

As my mate said when he told me last week, buckle up…

Let’s hope these owners know what they’re doing
 
Who says they'll sack every manager who doesn't get us promoted? We don't know what their expectations are.

What we do know so far is that they want to get us up and keep us up and they'd seen enough from this season to know that Wilder can get us up but won't keep us up, which a lot of fans agree with, (most who oppose this view only do so referencing the past).

I think they'll be more patient than you realise. They're wanting to buy and develop future first team players. That takes time and patience.

Let's say next season Seriki improves, stays injury free, is more consistent and locks in the right back position, they may view that as progress as we've cemented one position for the long term.

Let's say Burrows scores 10 goals and gets 8 assists, an improvement on last season, that's further progress and a sign that he can make the step up. He may well get sold as a result but the money can buy an adequate replacement and strengthen another position.

Let's say Peck becomes more consistent and influential and locks in another position, that's more progress.

We may well miss out on promotion as a result but they may look past this as they'll have seen progress towards the bigger goal due to the team and players improving.

Once again we can only assume and speculate. We haven't seen or heard enough from them yet to know what their true intentions and expectations are. Sacking Wilder is unlikely to be because he failed to get us promoted, it's more than that. He is not the man to keep us up if he takes us up.

We'll hopefully know more when they announce the new manager as owners often state their reasons for hiring them when they unveil them.
 
Tony_Kaufman said:
Who says they'll sack every manager who doesn't get us promoted? We don't know what their expectations are.

What we do know so far is that they want to get us up and keep us up and they'd seen enough from this season to know that Wilder can get us up but won't keep us up, which a lot of fans agree with, (most who oppose this view only do so referencing the past).

I think they'll be more patient than you realise. They're wanting to buy and develop future first team players. That takes time and patience.

Let's say next season Seriki improves, stays injury free, is more consistent and locks in the right back position, they may view that as progress as we've cemented one position for the long term.

Let's say Burrows scores 10 goals and gets 8 assists, an improvement on last season, that's further progress and a sign that he can make the step up. He may well get sold as a result but the money can buy an adequate replacement and strengthen another position.

Let's say Peck becomes more consistent and influential and locks in another position, that's more progress.

We may well miss out on promotion as a result but they may look past this as they'll have seen progress towards the bigger goal due to the team and players improving.

Once again we can only assume and speculate. We haven't seen or heard enough from them yet to know what their true intentions and expectations are. Sacking Wilder is unlikely to be because he failed to get us promoted, it's more than that. He is not the man to keep us up if he takes us up.

We'll hopefully know more when they announce the new manager as owners often state their reasons for hiring them when they unveil them.
Click to expand...

The only progress they will want ultimately is taking us from third to second (or higher). There’s 40 million reasons why that is the case.
 
Rodley said:
The only progress they will want ultimately is taking us from third to second (or higher). There’s 40 million reasons why that is the case.
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How do you know that? Have you spoken to them? Did they tell you this?

No, again, that's just your assumption and speculation on what you think they want.
 
Tony_Kaufman said:
How do you know that? Have you spoken to them? Did they tell you this?

No, again, that's just your assumption and speculation on what you think they want.
Click to expand...

As is yours.

If you’re sacking the fella for finishing 3rd, you won’t countenance 3rd again. It doesn’t make sense. They want promotion.
 
Nick Jansky said:
I think we know what the reaction will be. There will be a mountain of tear drenched toys that have been hurled from prams and there will be calls for Wilder to come back.

The owners will completely ignore all of that, though.
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If this happened I'm finished for good
 
Rodley said:
As is yours.

If you’re sacking the fella for finishing 3rd, you won’t countenance 3rd again. It doesn’t make sense. They want promotion.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily.

They want promotion and want us to stay up. That's something we all know as they have said that. We can agree on that.

Right now we only have Cooper, Burrows, Hamer, Anel and Souza who are arguably good enough to play in the Premier League, even then question marks are still on Burrows, Anel and Souza. We are six players short of the quality we need to stay up and that's expensive to buy in one summer these days.

Perhaps they'll he happy if we're competing at the top, the football is good regardless of results and we secure a couple of positions each season. That's progress towards the bigger picture as we'd only be four players of what we'd need.

Perhaps they're willing to wait for promotion as part of a long term plan instead of rushing it and not giving ourselves a chance to stay up as we'd have too much to do.

We don't know, but time will tell. The only people who say we have to go up next season are fans.

Personally I can handle a few seasons in the Championship if I see better football and see the team, not squad, get stronger each season, even if we have to sell players along the way because the deals were too good.
 
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FMBlade1 said:
I'm not going to discuss the merits of replacing Wilder and replacing him with Selles as there's loads of other threads on that, this is looking at it from another angle.

Assuming it does take place, it shows a real level of ruthlessness from the board which may be designed to address the culture of failure our club has had over the past few decades.

As per these threads (not going to bump them up don't worry), poor ownership and bad decision making were one of the key factors we have attributed to our failures:

FMBlade1

Thread '100 years without a trophy, 10 failed play-off attempts, why have we underachieved as a football club?'

Following on from this thread:

https://www.s24su.com/forum/threads/the-loser-mentality-at-this-club.103699/

I thought to put some of the reasons offered onto a poll and let people contribute- you can pick more up to three options as well as rejecting the premise of the question.

There will be some strong disagreements and perhaps its all of them to an extent but will be interesting to see what people think are the top three main factors.

There are things we have done well (our academy) and we have had a few good cup runs, so this poll/thread isn't designed to slag people off...
  • Like

FMBlade1

Thread 'The loser mentality at this club'

This isn't a dig at anyone at the club but consider that:

- We haven't won a trophy in 100 years

- We've lost in 10 play-off attempts

- We are the largest club in Europe to have never qualified to play in any European competition.

- We are continuously adversely affected by ridiculous situations (COVID, Tevez, Evans, Segers etc.)

- We continuously bottle the big games.

There's something very wrong with our club in this regard, is there anything that can be done to change it?
  • Like

These American new owners clearly are not going to tolerate valiantly falling short anymore and will hold people accountable and ruthlessly get rid of them. It therefore wouldn't surprise me if the signing of Tom Cannon also leads to repercussions to those who signed off on/recommended it, for example.

Now this approach can be taken to extremes- Watford continuously sack ever manager who does not immediately get them promoted and have no stability whatsoever.

If Wilder is replaced the message is clear; no room for sentimentality and failure to achieve goals is unacceptable- no matter the circumstances.

This decision may lead to a significant culture change for the club for the better.
Click to expand...
Is failure ever acceptable? The average tenure of a manager is probably about 12 months.

And if you look at what delivers success, it's all about money. The promoted teams last season both had the highest budgets. We probably had the third highest budget and came.....third.

"Failure" generally comes from the board.
 
Tony_Kaufman said:
Not necessarily.

They want promotion and want us to stay up. That's something we all know as they have said that. We can agree on that.

Right now we only have Cooper, Burrows, Hamer, Anel and Souza who are arguably good enough to play in the Premier League, even then question marks are still on Burrows, Anel and Souza. We are six players short of the quality we need to stay up and that's expensive to buy in one summer these days.

Perhaps they'll he happy if we're competing at the top, the football is good regardless of results and we secure a couple of positions each season. That's progress towards the bigger picture.

Perhaps they're willing to wait for promotion as part of a long term plan instead of rushing it and not giving ourselves a chance to stay up as we'd have too much to do.

We don't know, but time will tell. The only people who say we have to go up next season are fans.

Personally I can handle a few seasons in the Championship if I see better football and see the team, not squad, get stronger each season, even if we have to sell players along the way because the deals were too good.
Click to expand...

If we get to next summer and we’re in the Champ, we have to find £40m. That’ll likely be in player sales. To keep the squad and strengthen again it’ll be £60-£80m investment surely?

I’m sure it’s really plausible that the new owners will allow us to meander around the Champ for a few seasons. Not much point discussing it further really if that’s your position.
 
FMBlade1 said:
I'm not going to discuss the merits of replacing Wilder and replacing him with Selles as there's loads of other threads on that, this is looking at it from another angle.

Assuming it does take place, it shows a real level of ruthlessness from the board which may be designed to address the culture of failure our club has had over the past few decades.

As per these threads (not going to bump them up don't worry), poor ownership and bad decision making were one of the key factors we have attributed to our failures:

FMBlade1

Thread '100 years without a trophy, 10 failed play-off attempts, why have we underachieved as a football club?'

Following on from this thread:

https://www.s24su.com/forum/threads/the-loser-mentality-at-this-club.103699/

I thought to put some of the reasons offered onto a poll and let people contribute- you can pick more up to three options as well as rejecting the premise of the question.

There will be some strong disagreements and perhaps its all of them to an extent but will be interesting to see what people think are the top three main factors.

There are things we have done well (our academy) and we have had a few good cup runs, so this poll/thread isn't designed to slag people off...
  • Like

FMBlade1

Thread 'The loser mentality at this club'

This isn't a dig at anyone at the club but consider that:

- We haven't won a trophy in 100 years

- We've lost in 10 play-off attempts

- We are the largest club in Europe to have never qualified to play in any European competition.

- We are continuously adversely affected by ridiculous situations (COVID, Tevez, Evans, Segers etc.)

- We continuously bottle the big games.

There's something very wrong with our club in this regard, is there anything that can be done to change it?
  • Like

These American new owners clearly are not going to tolerate valiantly falling short anymore and will hold people accountable and ruthlessly get rid of them. It therefore wouldn't surprise me if the signing of Tom Cannon also leads to repercussions to those who signed off on/recommended it, for example.

Now this approach can be taken to extremes- Watford continuously sack ever manager who does not immediately get them promoted and have no stability whatsoever.

If Wilder is replaced the message is clear; no room for sentimentality and failure to achieve goals is unacceptable- no matter the circumstances.

This decision may lead to a significant culture change for the club for the better.
Click to expand...
"Valiantly"?
 

Rodley said:
If we get to next summer and we’re in the Champ, we have to find £40m. That’ll likely be in player sales. To keep the squad and strengthen again it’ll be £60-£80m investment surely?

I’m sure it’s really plausible that the new owners will allow us to meander around the Champ for a few seasons. Not much point discussing it further really if that’s your position.
Click to expand...
McCabe couldn't afford to support us as he didn't have the money to do so.

The Prince could afford to support us as he didn't have the money to do so.

Our new owners are made up of several multi-millionaires. They are significantly more financially well off than our previous two owners and may well have the money and intention to support any financial short comings whilst the long term goal takes hold.

Again, we don't know. Anything you or I say is speculation at this point. It's too early into their tenureship to know. We haven't seen enough from them yet to know what they intend to do.

Anyone can throw theories around but none of it is based on anything of merit as we have nothing to go on currently. So arguing or debating it is redundant.
 
Tony_Kaufman said:
Not necessarily.

They want promotion and want us to stay up. That's something we all know as they have said that. We can agree on that.

Right now we only have Cooper, Burrows, Hamer, Anel and Souza who are arguably good enough to play in the Premier League, even then question marks are still on Burrows, Anel and Souza. We are six players short of the quality we need to stay up and that's expensive to buy in one summer these days.

Perhaps they'll he happy if we're competing at the top, the football is good regardless of results and we secure a couple of positions each season. That's progress towards the bigger picture as we'd only be four players of what we'd need.

Perhaps they're willing to wait for promotion as part of a long term plan instead of rushing it and not giving ourselves a chance to stay up as we'd have too much to do.

We don't know, but time will tell. The only people who say we have to go up next season are fans.

Personally I can handle a few seasons in the Championship if I see better football and see the team, not squad, get stronger each season, even if we have to sell players along the way because the deals were too good.
Click to expand...
I'm sure when it's all announced, the owners will give their reasons and what their aims are for nxt season

When they gave their statement after the play off final, they stated wanting another promotion push nxt season

I'm sure they will be aware of the 40 million drop in income if we don't go up,
Selles wouldn't be my choice, but if it is him, then he needs to be backed, with quality permanents, aswell as loans, or what's the point in a change
 
John Street West Terrace said:
23 other clubs in the division start out every year with the same mission & also have ruthless board members . 21 of these ‘fail’ every season & opt for frequent manager turnaround & changes in direction only to find they ‘fail’ again .
Perhaps we should have looked a bit closer to home with the team 30 miles up the road ..kept continuity & reaped the rewards the following season? ⚔️
Click to expand...

I don't think Oxford or Portsmouth would consider this season's results as a failure. Same with Bristol City. Probably the same with them lot a couple of miles down the road if you're being honest. It's all relative to targets, and frankly it is not unreasonable given the state of the league, playing squad and budget at the point the new owners took over to expect anything less than promotion, given at the time autos were a four horse race with one of the horses punching well above their weight.
 
alcoblade said:
Is failure ever acceptable? The average tenure of a manager is probably about 12 months.

And if you look at what delivers success, it's all about money. The promoted teams last season both had the highest budgets. We probably had the third highest budget and came.....third.

"Failure" generally comes from the board.
Click to expand...

But we didn’t come third. We came nowhere as a team with a lesser budget but an attacking mentality effectively pipped us to third in the playoffs.
 
Shawy24 said:
But we didn’t come third. We came nowhere as a team with a lesser budget but an attacking mentality effectively pipped us to third in the playoffs.
Click to expand...
We did come third. Then we lost a one off game. It's that short term mentality that's a huge part of football's problem.
 
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Greasy Chap Butty said:
Except we don't know the reasons. It's as likely CW wouldn't get on board with their new plans and methods, and it forced their hand.
Could be what you've said, or something else. But we don't know and might never find out.
Click to expand...
Give it 6 months if that as I can't see a certain person keeping his gob shut after a few Peronis 😉
 
alcoblade said:
We did come third. Then we lose a one off game. It's that short term mentality that's a huge part of football's problem.
Click to expand...

Its an interesting discussion. Leeds didn't ditch Farke and went up the next season. Struggling PL teams are more likely to survive changing managers mid-season rather than keeping them.

However the American approach seems simple: 'The target is promotion, anything short of that is failure, black and white, and you will be held accountable/got rid of regardless of what's gone on before'.

I wonder if we won the FA Cup but failed to get to promotion next year whether that would lead to the manager being sacked? It may well do similar to Spurs.
 
AWetFlannel said:
I don't think I've ever seen a professional football club that accepts failure. Wilson was sacked in the play off positions, Clough was sacked for losing the play offs, Adkins was sacked for not making them. Hecky was sacked in the PL despite having his hands tied.
Click to expand...
Some good points here.
 
Shawy24 said:
Dems da rules. Sunderland were third and promoted. Third in regular season means nothing in the Championship.
Click to expand...
Says everyone who wants Wilder out 😂👍

But mine isn't a point about Wilder. Just the undeniable fact that the number one factor in determining success is financial backing.
 

FMBlade1 said:
I'm not going to discuss the merits of replacing Wilder and replacing him with Selles as there's loads of other threads on that, this is looking at it from another angle.

Assuming it does take place, it shows a real level of ruthlessness from the board which may be designed to address the culture of failure our club has had over the past few decades.

As per these threads (not going to bump them up don't worry), poor ownership and bad decision making were one of the key factors we have attributed to our failures:

FMBlade1

Thread '100 years without a trophy, 10 failed play-off attempts, why have we underachieved as a football club?'

Following on from this thread:

https://www.s24su.com/forum/threads/the-loser-mentality-at-this-club.103699/

I thought to put some of the reasons offered onto a poll and let people contribute- you can pick more up to three options as well as rejecting the premise of the question.

There will be some strong disagreements and perhaps its all of them to an extent but will be interesting to see what people think are the top three main factors.

There are things we have done well (our academy) and we have had a few good cup runs, so this poll/thread isn't designed to slag people off...
  • Like

FMBlade1

Thread 'The loser mentality at this club'

This isn't a dig at anyone at the club but consider that:

- We haven't won a trophy in 100 years

- We've lost in 10 play-off attempts

- We are the largest club in Europe to have never qualified to play in any European competition.

- We are continuously adversely affected by ridiculous situations (COVID, Tevez, Evans, Segers etc.)

- We continuously bottle the big games.

There's something very wrong with our club in this regard, is there anything that can be done to change it?
  • Like

These American new owners clearly are not going to tolerate valiantly falling short anymore and will hold people accountable and ruthlessly get rid of them. It therefore wouldn't surprise me if the signing of Tom Cannon also leads to repercussions to those who signed off on/recommended it, for example.

Now this approach can be taken to extremes- Watford continuously sack ever manager who does not immediately get them promoted and have no stability whatsoever.

If Wilder is replaced the message is clear; no room for sentimentality and failure to achieve goals is unacceptable- no matter the circumstances.

This decision may lead to a significant culture change for the club for the better.
Click to expand...

I’m not sure it’s ruthlessness more seeing a vision and implementing it


I think it is more we build a framework for the success of the club and you the manager be part of it or on to the next


Having a top manager or player is great but what happens when they leave it falls down like a pack of cards


We need to build a framework so that a manager can come and go and talented players can be replaced easily such as a Hamer / Anel


Wilder clearly didn’t want to do this


Therefore it’s relatively easy decision once you separate him been a blades fan IMO


If we want to be a Bournemouth / Brighton / Brentford we need to have a structure like them
 
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