The Lundstram sub

[Slim Man]

So it didn’t cost us then?

I see you’ve learnt a new word. Is it not possible for you to have a debate without calling people names?

Are you thick?
I think the sub itself changing like for like cost us. It wasn’t Lundstrams fault, he didn’t directly cost us the game but we gained absolutely nothing and lost our momentum. We never got it back.

 

[JohnStreet]

Maybe you could all stop finger pointing, take a step back and just accept we lost due to a great goal in the last minute.

The main issue for me is not scoring goals at home. We need that to end.

 

[LJBlade]

Are you thick?
I think the sub itself changing like for like cost us. It wasn’t Lundstrams fault, he didn’t directly cost us the game but we gained absolutely nothing and lost our momentum. We never got it back.

Don’t worry, I fully agree with you, now that you’ve changed your mind.

 

[Slim Man]

Don’t worry, I fully agree with you, now that you’ve changed your mind.

I’m fairly convinced you’ve got something wrong with you

 

[cooperblade]

Wilder has explained the substitution. He basically said Evans was knackered

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

Yeah, but fuck me can the lad Lundstram ping a pass!

 

[LJBlade]

Wilder has explained the substitution. He basically said Evans was knackered

Which is exactly what I thought at the time. I still would have put Duffy on though as the link between midfield and the strikers was what we were missing throughout the game

 

[1889]

I haven't read all this thread, but irrespective of the substitutions, we have lost because of one moment of madness, when Enda Stevens showed the most one footed player in the championship onto that favoured foot. Never mind who came on for who?

That is it, nothing else matters, we more than held our own and deserved something from this game. FFS even I know, that Snodgrass is the most left footed player in the championship. I'm sorry, but this defeat is solely the responsibility of you, Enda Stevens, and your fucking schoolboy defending.

 

[wizadry]

Evans looked gutted when he came off and didn’t look tired at all, he has played all season for Wigan and his all round game and match fitness aren’t in question, Wilder fucked up but he’s hardly going to say that is he? If Evans was that knackered why didn’t he straight swap him for Lundstram instead of doing what he did?

Would Wilder ever take Coutts off? No and he should never take Evans off, he’s a classy player who should play as much as possible. For me fitness wasn’t the issue Wilder was and I don’t give a fuck who disagrees with that, it was a stupid decision to bring our best player off.

Lundstram either starts are comes on at 1 or 2-0 up to shore the team up, we asked him to do a job that two of the players on the bench could do a lot better, he was panicking and losing the ball needlessly when he came on.

Duffy has just been rewarded with a new contract, since he signed it he hasn’t started a league game, work that fucker out! Our creativity was lacking big time in the second half and it was crying out for him, for Wilder not to see this was rather worrying.

 

[cooperblade]

Which is exactly what I thought at the time. I still would have put Duffy on though as the link between midfield and the strikers was what we were missing throughout the game

I would also have put Duffy on for Evans and I'd have done it earlier in the game.

Evans looked gutted when he came off and didn’t look tired at all, he has played all season for Wigan and his all round game and match fitness aren’t in question,

Would Wilder ever take Coutts off? No and he should never take Evans off, he’s a classy player who should play as much as possible. For me fitness wasn’t the issue Wilder was and I don’t give a fuck who disagrees with that, it was a stupid decision to bring our best player off.

I thought Wilder's comment that playing in League 1 and being well on top every week isn't as demanding as playing v Snodgrass, Grealish, Adomah etc in a million miles an hour Championship game was very plausible.

Deciding that Evans should never be substituted so early in his United career seems a very balanced and well thought through opinion. My thoughts are that he played well against Norwich (although the ifollow cameraman made it difficult to tell whether it was him or Leonard sometimes) and wasn't quite as good last night as he made more mistakes / poor decisions.

I think he has the potential to be a really important player for us and I expect him to look better after a run of games (like Stearman, Lundstram and many others have). I think it's too early and he hasn't shown enough yet (how could he to be fair?) to be some sort of untouchable messiah who can never be subbed off.

 

[ChemEngBlade]

Just me that absolutely didn’t get it? It made no sense. The shape was fine, the midfield was fine. Lundstram looked clumsy and lost the ball a few times.

Leonard and Fleck in front of Evans should’ve stuck until we decided to bring Holmes or Duffy on. Just Donaldson for Wilson would’ve been just fine. Think we lost a bit of momentum when we changed it.

In the end I’d say it cost us, but in fairness I don’t think we’d have scored if we played till next year. Missed a couple of absolute gilt edged chances and then gave a fabulous player 16 minutes to line his shot up from outside the box... again.

We should have got so much more for that performance.

I didn't get it either. Bring Lundstram on to protect the back 4 but also bring on Holmes to push forward? Hmmm, Wilder's thinking has changed since the days of going 3/4 up top when drawing with 15 minutes to go

 

[Bayingblade]

I also thought CW got it wrong last night. For me, Duffy for Leonard and Donaldson for Clarke was the option. Leon worked his socks off but isn't looking like scoring at the moment. I would have left Wilson on as he would have given us pace as the game went on and they tired. After the subs last night, we offered nothing, which was really frustrating and you could sense their goal coming. As others have said, Evans was our best midfielder last night and to take him off was bizarre. He was showing no signs of tiredness at all IMHO. The other thing is, Fleck looks better when Duffy plays and I think Duffy buzzing around in front of their back four last night was just what was needed.

Hopefully lessons learnt for CW.

 

[Harrisblade]

I didn't get it either. Bring Lundstram on to protect the back 4 but also bring on Holmes to push forward? Hmmm, Wilder's thinking has changed since the days of going 3/4 up top when drawing with 15 minutes to go

Doesn't really matter though whichever he does.
If it doesn't actually change anything (which 80% of ALL substitutions don't) then he's wrong

 

[Fulwood Blade]

The lad Evans shows why all the Lundstram fans were wrong immediately after the Burton game.

Lundstram is not a bad footballer and the original post of "Lundstram haters" was a disgrace, No one hates Lundstram, but he never was and never will be a player that can dictate the game like Coutts did and now Evans does. That evidence on the playing surface has been shown since the game after Burton, highlighted specifically with games against Norwich and Villa.

The problem now is getting Leonard up to the pace of the Championship and that we adjust to this slight change in centre midfield that we are now adopting. We also need to STOP trying to play the perfect ball into the box.

UTB

PS: we'll beat Wolves on Saturday - our game is now more suited to away performances.

 

[ChemEngBlade]

Snodgrass won them the game because we gave him an hour to pick the corner out.

Snodgrass is a quality player, I've always rated him as a player. But it got me thinking about the whole debate about 'Marque signings', it always crops up during summer transfer windows. We don't really have any player of the same ilk as Snodgrass, Hutton, Elmohamady, Terry (granted he's only got 1/2 years left), Scott Hogan etc. These are the guys with the quality to snatch a goal at this level like Snodgrass did last night. I just don't get the sense that we have anyone like that. I reckon I'll get slated for saying it out loud and it's worked well for us last season & for the first half of this one and if Coutts's leg hadn't been broken then I do think that we'd be in a better position than we currently are however, it would still be an issue that would become more apparent as we play better teams. Now teams have figured us out, we have no one to create the magic we need. The ONLY one i really think is capable is Brooks, or at least every game we think could produce some magic, but he's touch & go with how fit he is after glandular fever. We did well having a team full of team-players, but maybe its now time to sign a top-name player

 

[Slim Man]

Evans looked gutted when he came off and didn’t look tired at all, he has played all season for Wigan and his all round game and match fitness aren’t in question, Wilder fucked up but he’s hardly going to say that is he? If Evans was that knackered why didn’t he straight swap him for Lundstram instead of doing what he did?

Would Wilder ever take Coutts off? No and he should never take Evans off, he’s a classy player who should play as much as possible. For me fitness wasn’t the issue Wilder was and I don’t give a fuck who disagrees with that, it was a stupid decision to bring our best player off.

Lundstram either starts are comes on at 1 or 2-0 up to shore the team up, we asked him to do a job that two of the players on the bench could do a lot better, he was panicking and losing the ball needlessly when he came on.

Duffy has just been rewarded with a new contract, since he signed it he hasn’t started a league game, work that fucker out! Our creativity was lacking big time in the second half and it was crying out for him, for Wilder not to see this was rather worrying.

My thoughts exactly.

Giving Holmes his debut yesterday when the players haven’t had the chance to learn about his game was stupid. Donaldson and Clarke were clearly struggling, we were lumping it upfield every chance we got and if we were going to take Evans off it had to be for Duffy.

When he gets the ball it sticks. And he picks it up in pockets and drags players out of positions. He allows other players to get up the pitch, it just works.

 

[Slim Man]

Snodgrass is a quality player, I've always rated him as a player. But it got me thinking about the whole debate about 'Marque signings', it always crops up during summer transfer windows. We don't really have any player of the same ilk as Snodgrass, Hutton, Elmohamady, Terry (granted he's only got 1/2 years left), Scott Hogan etc. These are the guys with the quality to snatch a goal at this level like Snodgrass did last night. I just don't get the sense that we have anyone like that. I reckon I'll get slated for saying it out loud and it's worked well for us last season & for the first half of this one and if Coutts's leg hadn't been broken then I do think that we'd be in a better position than we currently are however, it would still be an issue that would become more apparent as we play better teams. Now teams have figured us out, we have no one to create the magic we need. The ONLY one i really think is capable is Brooks, or at least every game we think could produce some magic, but he's touch & go with how fit he is after glandular fever. We did well having a team full of team-players, but maybe its now time to sign a top-name player

Those players cost a lot of money or some good overseas scouting. We won’t pay the money and we don’t have overseas scouts in place at the minute.

Unfortunately it’s very much ‘stick with what you’ve got’ but I feel we’ve hit a ceiling now. We were doing brilliantly well earlier in the season but now the likes of Fulham and Villa have woken up their extra quality is showing. And that’s what we either can’t afford or won’t pay for.

 

[AWetFlannel]

Why would Wilder, when playing against an international quality midfield of five, start Leonard (tall defensive midfielder) instead of Duffy (small attacking midfielder)?
Jump to the second half and Villa are having more possession and playing better with the score 0-0. How can we comprehend Wilder choosing to bring on Lundstram (tall defensive midfielder), it makes no sense!
To disagree is fine, but if you are baffled by this it says more about you than Wilder.

 

[Slim Man]

Why would Wilder, when playing against an international quality midfield of five, start Leonard (tall defensive midfielder) instead of Duffy (small attacking midfielder)?
Jump to the second half and Villa are having more possession and playing better with the score 0-0. How can we comprehend Wilder choosing to bring on Lundstram (tall defensive midfielder), it makes no sense!
To disagree is fine, but if you are baffled by this it says more about you than Wilder.

Because it made absolutely no sense to change like for like. We gained nothing at all.
Changing shape I would've understood, keeping it like for like and actually losing pace in Leonard for the slower Lundstram was baffling.

We SHOULD be going for them at home. We SHOULD be bringing on our attacking players to win a game.

 

[AWetFlannel]

Because it made absolutely no sense to change like for like. We gained nothing at all.
Changing shape I would've understood, keeping it like for like and actually losing pace in Leonard for the slower Lundstram was baffling.

We SHOULD be going for them at home. We SHOULD be bringing on our attacking players to win a game.

We were competing well, it was 0-0, how does like for like not make sense.
If we were 0-2 down against Burton I'd get your point. Wilder said both Leonard and Evans were tired, his interview answers your question.

 

[snootyfenooty]

We were competing well, it was 0-0, how does like for like not make sense.

The reason it didn't make any sense was, as you say, we were competing well and that we had a point in the bank until that series of substitutions and the result of them was that we ended up with none.

 

[Slim Man]

We were competing well, it was 0-0, how does like for like not make sense.
If we were 0-2 down against Burton I'd get your point. Wilder said both Leonard and Evans were tired, his interview answers your question.

Because it's just a waste of a sub. And we lost all our momentum after doing it.
No way was Leonard knackered after 60 minutes. The lad is a very athletic player and has played season after season full throttle for Southend.

Taking him off was a fuck up. And a negative one. Should've been Duffy on for Leonard and Evans pushed up with Fleck. If later on Evans is truly knackered and can't run, bring Lundstram on.

It was 0-0 in a promotion 6 pointer, and we've lost to a rival. Again.

 

[ChemEngBlade]

Those players cost a lot of money or some good overseas scouting. We won’t pay the money and we don’t have overseas scouts in place at the minute.

Unfortunately it’s very much ‘stick with what you’ve got’ but I feel we’ve hit a ceiling now. We were doing brilliantly well earlier in the season but now the likes of Fulham and Villa have woken up their extra quality is showing. And that’s what we either can’t afford or won’t pay for.

I know, and these players cost money. Snodgrass is probably on £50k a week and cost £10mil (i'm guessing at those figures). But its those players that can take a team to the top. Those players with that quality add up game by game and it shows. For this reason, would it be better for the club if we were sold to someone with the funds to pour in? Maybe with the money to buy players above our current station and take the gamble. I can't work out why the current owners don't take the gamble themselves. The money that would come in from promotion (We hear £100mil banded about a lot), surely would pay off if we spent £10 mil on 2 quality players + wages? Maybe they don't have the money to do it with, in which case maybe its time we were bought out

 

[Slim Man]

I know, and these players cost money. Snodgrass is probably on £50k a week and cost £10mil (i'm guessing at those figures). But its those players that can take a team to the top. Those players with that quality add up game by game and it shows. For this reason, would it be better for the club if we were sold to someone with the funds to pour in? Maybe with the money to buy players above our current station and take the gamble. I can't work out why the current owners don't take the gamble themselves. The money that would come in from promotion (We hear £100mil banded about a lot), surely would pay off if we spent £10 mil on 2 quality players + wages? Maybe they don't have the money to do it with, in which case maybe its time we were bought out

Can't disagree with you at all.

Doesn't even have to be a Snodgrass either because there are plenty of match winners at this level on less than him and his peers. Wendy picked up the fairy for 3 million a couple of years ago, there's still quality players out there that are affordable but we have to be willing to part with 7 figures to get it.

And if we aren't willing to part with 7 figures the owners need to find us some investment, new ownership, or set up a scouting network overseas - because League One players will only get you so far.

 

[AWetFlannel]

Because it's just a waste of a sub. And we lost all our momentum after doing it.
No way was Leonard knackered after 60 minutes. The lad is a very athletic player and has played season after season full throttle for Southend.

Taking him off was a fuck up. And a negative one. Should've been Duffy on for Leonard and Evans pushed up with Fleck. If later on Evans is truly knackered and can't run, bring Lundstram on.

It was 0-0 in a promotion 6 pointer, and we've lost to a rival. Again.

Nice that you can just claim we lost momentum after the sub. I could easily argue we lost momentum at half time given that they had their best spell just after.
Wilder is a lying about Leonard then, you know better than our fitness coaches and management staff.
Be thankful our manager and players are in a promotion battle at all, which is evidence that our tactics are making us achieve heights we have no right to be near (regarding wage bill).

 

[AWetFlannel]

The reason it didn't make any sense was, as you say, we were competing well and that we had a point in the bank until that series of substitutions and the result of them was that we ended up with none.

So because in hindsight you can say that it made no sense at the time?
You obviously knew at the time that bringing Duffy on would mean we wouldn't concede a goal because you are a football mystic.

 

[Slim Man]

Nice that you can just claim we lost momentum after the sub. I could easily argue we lost momentum at half time given that they had their best spell just after.
Wilder is a lying about Leonard then, you know better than our fitness coaches and management staff.
Be thankful our manager and players are in a promotion battle at all, which is evidence that our tactics are making us achieve heights we have no right to be near (regarding wage bill).

Ok then, even if you think that, since when has John Lundstram given us any momentum? I actually like the kid but he's not got the spark to get us going has he?

RE: Leonard. I don't believe he was knackered. I'll leave it at that. Even if he was it should've been Duffy on for him.

We can keep saying we have no right to near but we're just doing ourselves a disservice and using it as a stick to beat ourselves with. It's defeatist and pathetic.
We SHOULD be there because we've got some fucking good footballers who give their all week in week out. We DESERVE to be where we are because we're more than a match for anyone in this division.

Fuck wages, Burnley are 8th in the premier league for crying out loud.

 

[wizadry]

I would also have put Duffy on for Evans and I'd have done it earlier in the game.



I thought Wilder's comment that playing in League 1 and being well on top every week isn't as demanding as playing v Snodgrass, Grealish, Adomah etc in a million miles an hour Championship game was very plausible.

Deciding that Evans should never be substituted so early in his United career seems a very balanced and well thought through opinion. My thoughts are that he played well against Norwich (although the ifollow cameraman made it difficult to tell whether it was him or Leonard sometimes) and wasn't quite as good last night as he made more mistakes / poor decisions.

I think he has the potential to be a really important player for us and I expect him to look better after a run of games (like Stearman, Lundstram and many others have). I think it's too early and he hasn't shown enough yet (how could he to be fair?) to be some sort of untouchable messiah who can never be subbed off.

We’ve been crying out for someone like Coutts since he got injured and Evans is as close as you’re going to get to him without spending big bucks. Coutts wouldn’t be subbed and rightly so and I don’t think Evans should be when we need his type of player on the pitch at all times, the lad wasn’t tired, Wilder tried a tactical tweak with his first changes and knew he fucked up, he’ll learn a lot from it.

Evans has already shown more than Lundstram in the two games I’ve seen him to be a better all round player than him, that’s not to say I don’t like Lundstram as a player because I do, I just think Evans is better and you can tell already, if you don’t think so then fair enough, we’ll just agree to disagree.

Lundstram didn’t need to be on that pitch at all last night, the game didn’t need him.

 

[snootyfenooty]

So because in hindsight you can say that it made no sense at the time?
You obviously knew at the time that bringing Duffy on would mean we wouldn't concede a goal because you are a football mystic.

I think bringing Duffy on for the last 20 minutes would have caused Villa problems in an area where they were becoming increasingly comfortable. We could have nicked it, yeah we could still have lost, who knows? But I think we would have come away with at least a point. Just my opinion, that's all, not trying to start a war with you.

 

[AWetFlannel]

Ok then, even if you think that, since when has John Lundstram given us any momentum? I actually like the kid but he's not got the spark to get us going has he?

RE: Leonard. I don't believe he was knackered. I'll leave it at that. Even if he was it should've been Duffy on for him.

We can keep saying we have no right to near but we're just doing ourselves a disservice and using it as a stick to beat ourselves with. It's defeatist and pathetic.
We SHOULD be there because we've got some fucking good footballers who give their all week in week out. We DESERVE to be where we are because we're more than a match for anyone in this division.

Fuck wages, Burnley are 8th in the premier league for crying out loud.

You could argue as I have done above, that we didn't need a spark or more momentum. I don't have hindsight armour like you, but surely you can imagine us getting overrun in the middle if we'd have brought Duffy on (not that I'm sure it would, but it could have).

RE: beating ourselves with sticks. Whether you say our manager is lying or not, you have implied it which is very negative. The same defeatism can be found with you being sure our manager and fitness staff are making nonsensical decisions.

I made it clear I was saying we had no right in regards to our wage bill, which is the variable that most closely maps footballing success. What I actually meant is that because we are overcoming this variable, we are doing so much else right (tactics, signings, subs, work rate) and should praise our team rather than insult our managers intelligence.