The enigma that is Paul Coutts

[1danewhitehouse]

Edwards never praises Flynn or Coutts ,hes just a miserable wanker these days who really doesn't give any accurate assessments of a game and is more interested in private jokes and talking about himself. Deadbat and others on here are a far better gauge of a United match than him who seems to hold personal vendettas (Warnock eg) and doesn't paint an accurate view of a game.

It’s strange. He’s an awful ‘expert analyst’. Kevin Gage for example was far better providing tactical observations, discussing the strengths and weaknesses of the opposition etc. But somehow, it just doesn’t feel right listening to an away match without Keith’s miserable drone and harping on about how great he was and how it was in his day. David Holdsworth isn’t bad. Some funny one-liners. “It looked like he’d gone to Sainsbury’s to buy a chicken!”.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

the dilemma for me is that Adkins has now created a difficult side to beat.

He could go into next season with the same team that has played the last half dozen games, and it would be solid and boring.

That team today would easily finish 3rd to 6th, but would not finish 1st or 2nd.

So, whilst I agree with you about getting rid - Adkins dilemma is simple:

Get rid, bring in lets say 10 players which might not gel and he could be out of a job by Xmas - or keep what we have and try and tweak it.

I don't envy him at all.

UTB

Or spend pre-season in the lab trying to make a midfielder from Basham’s engine, Coutts’ technical ability, Hammond’s aggression and positional sense and Baxter’s shooting ability. Then we might just have a player worth something.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

why? they simply aren't good enough.. are you seriously suggesting that we resign 'any' of them?

I think McEveley, Edgar, Hammond and Flynn will be here next season so Adkins has some security and a squad to start with. Not sure if McGahey will get a deal. Then he can release Howard, Kennedy, McFadzean, Harris, Wallace, Flo, JCR, Sammon, Baptiste (unfortunately) and hopefully move Freeman, Scougall & McNulty on too to hopefully bring in around 4 or 5 players of better quality.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Not being funny mate but why would you keep players who are proven failures over a number of seasons just in case the new players are no better?? We won't get out of this division with these players, that's been proven. We need to get rid of all the out of contract players and change the dynamic of the side. It may or may not work, but the current bunch are proven not to work. Hardly a gamble in my eyes.

All? Even Long?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

The dilemma is Coutts is contracted for another year...probably on around £10k at least. ( thanks Cloughy)

No one will buy him/take him off our hands ( come on Cloughy), what do we do?

Very much doubt he’ll be on that sort of money. Between £5-8k I reckon.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

1 for Sharp. That's all I remember

He set one up for Sammon against Bradford. I think he also set one up at home to Donny with a cross from the right. He won a pen converted by Sharp against Posh (I think).

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Mids need to pitch in with goals.....

for this reason he needs to be moved on........

He’s got another year on his contract and does have some useful attributes but if someone came in to take him off our hands, I wouldn’t complain.


John Lundstram

Jermaine Anderson

Liam Trotter

Ehrun Oztumer

Josh Brownhill

Conor Hourihane


Just a few I’d be happy to see come in ahead of him.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Strikes me that Adkins has to contend with

1) A decent run-in with a 3 5 2 system he doesn't favour with players who aren't up to 4 4 2,
2) The prospect of having a major re-build to do with so many players out of contract,
3) Financial constraints
4) Hanging on to the very few decent players we have.
5) Getting rid of the dross still under contract that is surplus to requirements.
6) What system to play next year
7) What level of players to recruit (L1 - L1/Championship) - difficult given we don't want to be saddled long term with players who either can't cope with the physicality of L1 or be of use if we go up.
8) Having a team that hits the ground running and doesn't take till Christmas to gel.

I can see a few of the current crop of inadequates getting 1 year deals to bridge the gap. Let's hope they aren't the first choices for the first team.

Long

Brayford

Edgar

Basham

Sharp

Adams


6 players for next season who we presumably have the ability to retain who are good enough to be in the first team. We then have Coutts, Woolford, Done, Reed, Whiteman, K. Wallace and Calvert Lewin who add options and decisions to make on McEveley and Flynn. That would give us a team/squad that would possibly challenge for the playoffs but wouldn’t trouble the top 2. With so many departing, we have to find another 3 or so players good enough to come straight into the first team.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I wouldn't be surprised if coutts had a quality season next year.

I remember McDonalds first 6 months, our fans slated him, said he was shit, slow, useless. I remember being at one game and one fan just ruining him "get him off Wilson, he's fucking useless, lazy bastard"... Fast forward 5 months and he was our savior and if he had been fit for the play off final we would probably have won.

I thought McDonald was class first time I saw him in a pre-season friendly. I did suggest dropping him for Monty for the derby games though as I thought he was too soft and would get bullied by the pigs whereas Monty would go toe-to-toe with them.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

You need a player to keep the ball moving ,to start attacks, to link defence and attack ,someone who can control the ball and keep possession ,this is vital in a team who attack unless you go route one. People who just simply say no goals ,no assists don't understand the game ,you need players to play the way Adkins wants us to play. Baxter slowed us down and played percentage passes ,losing possession regularly and dangerously ( a hugely over rated footballer) If you take Coutts out of the side we lose any fluidity and outlets for the defenders to play the ball to. Have a look who Baptiste and Edgar always look for to either get the ball back to take a player out or move the ball on to the wide man or up front. What we don't get out of him is someone who can tackle and defend but that player would be beyond our reach in the 3rd division.

I don’t disagree with you about what he brings to the team and the importance of it. However, is it not reasonable to expect a midfielder to be able to do more? I get your point about “wouldn’t be playing in this division” but I’m not asking for everything. We could forgive his lack of defensive attributes if he contributed goals or forgive the lack of goals if he could tackle and track back but for neither of those to be present leaves some gaping holes in his game as decent a playmaker as he is. McDonald had similar short-comings but was able to control midfield to a greater extent than Coutts can.

 

[Esablade]

Very much doubt he’ll be on that sort of money. Between £5-8k I reckon.

Well it's all guesswork in't it...though a little bird told me Coutts was one of our highest earners and average Derby players of that time where on around £8-£10k...not including bounses etc

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Well it's all guesswork in't it...though a little bird told me Coutts was one of our highest earners and average Derby players of that time where on around £8-£10k...not including bounses etc

You'd think he'd have to have taken a cut dropping down a league for regular games and the security of a longer contract after a bad injury though. I can't see anyone at the club except Brayford being on £10k per week. Even Sharp will be about £8k I reckon.

 

[Woodwardfan]

You'd think he'd have to have taken a cut dropping down a league for regular games and the security of a longer contract after a bad injury though. I can't see anyone at the club except Brayford being on £10k per week. Even Sharp will be about £8k I reckon.

Don't forget Clough was assuming control of transfers at that time outside the recruitment committe and wasn't it the JTW when Clough signed Brayford, Done, Freeman and Wallace as well in an effort to clinch promotionon on a much increased budget. 'Shit or bust' looking back.

For all we know it might have been Coutts' wages that caused the big fall out when Clough got himself sacked.

 

[wizadry]

You'd think he'd have to have taken a cut dropping down a league for regular games and the security of a longer contract after a bad injury though. I can't see anyone at the club except Brayford being on £10k per week. Even Sharp will be about £8k I reckon.

If anybody is on £10k a week in league one it is way too much to be paying and it needs addressing.

 

[Esablade]

You'd think he'd have to have taken a cut dropping down a league for regular games and the security of a longer contract after a bad injury though. I can't see anyone at the club except Brayford being on £10k per week. Even Sharp will be about £8k I reckon.

Sammon supposedly on around £10k also....
Like I said though, who knows really?

The wage bill came in at around £8-9 million for Clough's last season ...so that's before Billy...lord knows what Higgo was stealing, but it were rumoured too much for Chessie when they enquired

I reckon we had/have got a few on getting close to half a million a year...

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Don't forget Clough was assuming control of transfers at that time outside the recruitment committe and wasn't it the JTW when Clough signed Brayford, Done, Freeman and Wallace as well in an effort to clinch promotionon on a much increased budget. 'Shit or bust' looking back.

For all we know it might have been Coutts' wages that caused the big fall out when Clough got himself sacked.

Not impossible and none of us know for sure. I just think that if he was on that sort of money at Derby, it seems more than likely that having just come back from a career threatening injury, being surplus to requirements there that he would take a drop in wages to drop a league, play regular football and have the security of a 2.5 year contract and the chance to be re-united with his BFF (Brayford) and his favourite boss (Clough).

 

[1danewhitehouse]

If anybody is on £10k a week in league one it is way too much to be paying and it needs addressing.

Kind of agree but I suspect Brayford is. He was reportedly on around £18k at Cardiff and said he’d taken a pay cut of around 40% to come to us so it seems likely. All depends what we have in the budget though. I’d rather have 11 Brayford’s on 10k per week and another 11 kids on £1k per week than 30 players of the Collins, Baxter, Higdon etc. ilk on say £4-5k per week.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Not impossible and none of us know for sure. I just think that if he was on that sort of money at Derby, it seems more than likely that having just come back from a career threatening injury, being surplus to requirements there that he would take a drop in wages to drop a league, play regular football and have the security of a 2.5 year contract and the chance to be re-united with his BFF (Brayford) and his favourite boss (Clough).

Clough was desperate in that JTW, he knew most of his other signings were leaving us well short. He threw money at Cardiff and Rochdale who both explained to their fans that the fees had gone way beyond what they would normally have expected and they couldn't refuse them.

Coutts was another essential signing for Clough because his midfield was sadly lacking and in his own mind the Brayford/ Coutts partnership would be key going forward.

On the other hand Coutts' contract at Derby was up that summer of 2015.

It's not just about wages alone that may have concerned the Board, it may have been the fact he could hardly run and finish games. He still can't but he is fitter than last season. Odds are he is 4th /5th highest paid player.including loanees.

 

[Revolution]

Clough was desperate in that JTW, he knew most of his other signings were leaving us well short. He threw money at Cardiff and Rochdale who both explained to their fans that the fees had gone way beyond what they would normally have expected and they couldn't refuse them.

Coutts was another essential signing for Clough because his midfield was sadly lacking and in his own mind the Brayford/ Coutts partnership would be key going forward.

On the other hand Coutts' contract at Derby was up that summer of 2015.

It's not just about wages alone that may have concerned the Board, it may have been the fact he could hardly run and finish games. He still can't but he is fitter than last season. Odds are he is 4th /5th highest paid player.including loanees.

The Wallace, Coutts and Higdon deals and the laughable attempt to sign that guy who was at Derby who hadn't played for 3 years show that United didn't do proper medicals or the results were ignored.

Either way, that's appalling (but not surprising).

 

[BushBlade]

The Wallace, Coutts and Higdon deals and the laughable attempt to sign that guy who was at Derby who hadn't played for 3 years show that United didn't do proper medicals or the results were ignored.

Either way, that's appalling (but not surprising).

It's not a new thing either. What about the likes of Ryan France? Or the misdiagnosis of Hendo's injury that kept him out all season because the training he was doing was making it worse, not better.
We have the cheek to call other clubs in L1 'tinpot' but I doubt there's any club in this league that are as amateurish as us, in nearly everything we do.

 

[sitwell]

Clough was desperate in that JTW, he knew most of his other signings were leaving us well short. He threw money at Cardiff and Rochdale who both explained to their fans that the fees had gone way beyond what they would normally have expected and they couldn't refuse them.

Coutts was another essential signing for Clough because his midfield was sadly lacking and in his own mind the Brayford/ Coutts partnership would be key going forward.

On the other hand Coutts' contract at Derby was up that summer of 2015.

It's not just about wages alone that may have concerned the Board, it may have been the fact he could hardly run and finish games. He still can't but he is fitter than last season. Odds are he is 4th /5th highest paid player.including loanees.

When was the last time Coutts didn't finish a game ? Sammon, Hammond ,Baxter ,Sharp ,Baptiste ,Edgar ,Flynn ,Done ,McEveley , Cuvellier will all be on more than Coutts. He will be on the same as Basham ,Harris ,Scougall ,Freeman ,Mcnulty and Magahey I reckon.
Couldn't guess at Long being the longest serving player.

 

[Lane Ender]

We have the cheek to call other clubs in L1 'tinpot' but I doubt there's any club in this league that are as amateurish as us, in nearly everything we do.

If i run my firm as The Blades do i would be bust within a couple of months.

 

[Woodwardfan]

When was the last time Coutts didn't finish a game ? Sammon, Hammond ,Baxter ,Sharp ,Baptiste ,Edgar ,Flynn ,Done ,McEveley , Cuvellier will all be on more than Coutts. He will be on the same as Basham ,Harris ,Scougall ,Freeman ,Mcnulty and Magahey I reckon.
Couldn't guess at Long being the longest serving player.

We disagree then.

Don't think we'll be paying full wages for loanees, apart from maybe Hammond who we seemed desperate to get, maybe Edgar too as we had just got thumped 4-0 first match.

Boro will have been grateful for us helping Baptiste to get fit and we weren't sure he'd be match fit for a while, hence %age of wage.

Baxter??!! No wonder you were always so scathing about the lad, I wouldn't imagine he's on anywhere near the others, why should he be?Weir 'austerity' era.

Nor Flynn, McEveley, Cuvelier ( Weir era). Done will be up there he cost us £750k and high wages go with big fees.

Interesting views we have though. I must say I'd be more tolerant of Coutts if I didn't think he was highly paid and far less tolerant of McEveley, Flynn, Cuvelier if I thought they were. I think you are way out actually but what do I know, it's the perceptions that do affect things.

As for Coutts finishing games, Hammond saves him being subbed time and again because Hammond is just as knackered and always on a yellow and seemingly unable to stop himself bundling in to players. Coutts manages his energy as best he can and really does coast through second halves. I spend a lot of time watching the Coutts/ Hammond duo in midfield and it drives me mad and yes Mr. Adkins, I watch them off the ball all the time; both of them recover like I do when I'm 8 miles or so into a country walk and every step is carefully placed and calculated.!!.

 

[sitwell]

We disagree then.

Don't think we'll be paying full wages for loanees, apart from maybe Hammond who we seemed desperate to get, maybe Edgar too as we had just got thumped 4-0 first match.

Boro will have been grateful for us helping Baptiste to get fit and we weren't sure he'd be match fit for a while, hence %age of wage.

Baxter??!! No wonder you were always so scathing about the lad, I wouldn't imagine he's on anywhere near the others, why should he be?

Nor Flynn, McEveley, Cuvelier ( Weir era). Done will be up there he cost us £750k and high wages go with big fees.

Interesting views we have though. I must say I'd be more tolerant of Coutts if I didn't think he was highly paid and far less tolerant of McEveley, Flynn, Cuvelier if I thought they were. I think you are way out actually but what do I know, it's the perceptions that do affect things.

As for Coutts finishing games, Hammond saves him being subbed time and again because Hammond is just as knackered and always on a yellow and seemingly unable to stop himself bundling in to players. Coutts manages his energy as best he can and really does coast through second halves. I spend a lot of time watching the Coutts/ Hammond duo in midfield and it drives me mad and yes Mr. Adkins, I watch them off the ball all the time; both of them recover like I do when I'm 8 miles or so into a country walk and every step is carefully placed and calculated.!!.

Youre last paragraph is so ridiculous its mad in my opinion ,this is professional players we are talking about not sunday league but I guess we wont agree on that one.
Coutts was bought on an injury from a club that didn't want him ,has never played higher than the championship and only commanded 150k in transfer fees.
Baxter played briefly in the premier league and commanded a half million transfer fee on a 3 year deal.
Flynn I believe is one of the highest earners at the club ,bought in the Championship on his 3rd ? Contract.
McEveley is a former prem player
Cuvelier although not playing signed 2 contracts with stoke in the premier league turning down contract offers from Spurs man city and Fulham believe it or not ,he wont be on low wages.

Its all guess ,the only one Im sure of is Hammond who was deffo on 22k at Leicester but I don't know how much of that we are paying ,we took a long time to barter them down ,that was Branningans job ,which I am told he did well.
I would guess Coutts at about 4 k a week

 

[Lane Ender]

Coutts manages his energy as best

Coutts tossers it a lot during a game but he has got some nice touches and good vision

 

[Lane Ender]

Youre last paragraph is so ridiculous its mad in my opinion ,this is professional players we are talking about not sunday league but I guess we wont agree on that one.
Coutts was bought on an injury from a club that didn't want him ,has never played higher than the championship and only commanded 150k in transfer fees.
Baxter played briefly in the premier league and commanded a half million transfer fee on a 3 year deal.
Flynn I believe is one of the highest earners at the club ,bought in the Championship on his 3rd ? Contract.
McEveley is a former prem player
Cuvelier although not playing signed 2 contracts with stoke in the premier league turning down contract offers from Spurs man city and Fulham believe it or not ,he wont be on low wages.

Its all guess ,the only one Im sure of is Hammond who was deffo on 22k at Leicester but I don't know how much of that we are paying ,we took a long time to barter them down ,that was Branningans job ,which I am told he did well.
I would guess Coutts at about 4 k a week

Surely we could save a few quid on future deals then.
And looking for up and coming players could save money also

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Surely we could save a few quid on future deals then.
And looking for up and coming players could save money also

Adkins to me as lined himself up , and whatever he does we will not be happy . The midfield this season has not worked and will not work next season . However and don't shoot me down , out of the lot , Coutts can be a asset because he is a real footballer and will be able to adapt with better players around him.

The jury is still out on Hammond , but I can see him arriving even if just a squad player .

It's down to opinions and money budget , which hopefully Adkins and Tunbull have just about sorted the new recruits coming in and the dross going out .

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

Youre last paragraph is so ridiculous its mad in my opinion ,this is professional players we are talking about not sunday league but I guess we wont agree on that one.
Coutts was bought on an injury from a club that didn't want him ,has never played higher than the championship and only commanded 150k in transfer fees.
Baxter played briefly in the premier league and commanded a half million transfer fee on a 3 year deal.
Flynn I believe is one of the highest earners at the club ,bought in the Championship on his 3rd ? Contract.
McEveley is a former prem player
Cuvelier although not playing signed 2 contracts with stoke in the premier league turning down contract offers from Spurs man city and Fulham believe it or not ,he wont be on low wages.

Its all guess ,the only one Im sure of is Hammond who was deffo on 22k at Leicester but I don't know how much of that we are paying ,we took a long time to barter them down ,that was Branningans job ,which I am told he did well.
I would guess Coutts at about 4 k a week

How much do you think all these players earn Sitwell?

 

[sitwell]

How much do you think all these players earn Sitwell?

Purely guess work you understand ,might be miles out
Coutts ,Basham Harris ,Scoogs ,Freeman magahey ,Howard , 4
Adams k Wallace 3
Baxter jcr j wallace5
Flynn ,woolford 8
McEveley ,cuvelier ,done 6
Brayford ,Sharp 10-12
I reckon we will be paying 8-10 for each of the loanees
George Long is the most difficult but I reckon about 4 as he has been here a long time.
Might be miles out hope I am over ,wish it was under

 

[Woodwardfan]

Purely guess work you understand ,might be miles out
Coutts ,Basham Harris ,Scoogs ,Freeman magahey ,Howard , 4
Adams k Wallace 3
Baxter jcr j wallace5
Flynn ,woolford 8
McEveley ,cuvelier ,done 6
Brayford ,Sharp 10-12
I reckon we will be paying 8-10 for each of the loanees
George Long is the most difficult but I reckon about 4 as he has been here a long time.
Might be miles out hope I am over ,wish it was under

OK Sitwell, I'll give you my guesses and a total payroll of £6m for permanent contracts which I think might be about right
£3k a week - Whiteman, Lewin, McGahey.
£4k a week - Kennedy, Long, Harris, Howard, Scougall, K.Wallace, Reed, Freeman, Ryce,
£5k a week - McNulty, Adams, McEveley, Basham, J.Wallace, Baxter,
£6k a week - Coutts, Cuvelier, Woolford.
£7k a week - Done
£8k a week - Sharp
£9k a week - Brayford

Add to those the wages for loanees which are anybody's guess:

Baptiste £4k, Edgar £5k, Hammond £10k, Sammon £8k,

Annualised that is £1.8m

Total £7.8m per annum on players wages. I have not defrayed the recompense in respect of our players' wages paid by clubs who have taken our players on loan but they are all League 2 clubs when all is said and done and not loads of cash to throw around.

Is there any wonder that the Board have taken the opposite opinion of our un-named posters who are simply stupid to say that the Board should have financed the signing of "just a couple of quality signings that would make all the difference to the chase for promotion". FFS, the Board have done that time and again, particularly 'in the JTW 2015 and nothing happened yet again.

Adkins is to some degree a victim of all these circumstances but he has added to the problem and the annual wage bill to the tune of £41 k per week i.e. £2.15 m per annum with the only perceivable benefit of Billy Sharp's goals and diddly-squat else. For what the rest of his signings have added we would have been just as well served by Kennedy, Reed, Lewin, Diego, McNulty, Freeman, Harris, even Higdon in the case of Sammon!!- at much less expense.

Absolute fucking shambles actually. If I was on the Board I'd be one of those saying and believing "if that's the best these managers can do, would I be better doing it myself", well it can't be worse, or could it, don't even comment!!