SUFC: Series of Fans Forums.

[The Crab]

Bit harsh, could we not have just fired them?

Has Kim Yung Un taken over?

 

[Grappler]

Has Kim Yung Un taken over?

Surely that would be Kev's young un's?

 

[The Crab]

Surely that would be Kev's young un's?

When I'd heard he was going to try more young 'uns next season I'd assumed they were going to be Academy players. If the North Koreans take over, for the likes of Barney they'd be taking him off to the re-education centre (just joshing Barney lad)

 

[Sean Thornton]

When I'd heard he was going to try more young 'uns next season I'd assumed they were going to be Academy players. If the North Koreans take over, for the likes of Barney they'd be taking him off to the re-education centre (just joshing Barney lad)

That would imply he's been educated before?

 

[Woodwardfan]

"Others like me say it's all down to the manager" is what I read from your first paragraph.

I can't remember a manager that hasn't had to start a season without the rug being pulled from underneath him and us selling one of our most important players at the most inconvenient times.

Also, to say Adkins has had all the backing he needs is hugely wide of the mark.

Those who constantly lump all the blame onto whichever manager we happen to have this season, while letting the board off Scot free and defending them, need sermons.

Seriously Pete, using the live example we have in front of us i.e. Adkins since last June.

Simple question, yes or no answer, allowing for the squad he inherited, using a budget he chose to spend on 6 highly paid Championship players, most for almost a full season, losing only Murphy apart from those he chose to move away on loan or paid off -- should Adkins have got us promoted this season?

 

[PeteBlade]

Seriously Pete, using the live example we have in front of us i.e. Adkins since last June.

Simple question, yes or no answer, allowing for the squad he inherited, using a budget he chose to spend on 6 highly paid Championship players, most for almost a full season, losing only Murphy apart from those he chose to move away on loan or paid off -- should Adkins have got us promoted this season?

It's very easy to put it as a 'simple question yes or no" when you want to paint someone into a corner, but it really isn't as simple as that.

Has he under achieved this season? That's without doubt.

However, we didn't just lose Murphy, we lost him one game into the season, having had all pre season with him in his plans. What budget was he given to replace him?

He's been allowed to spend a fee on one player, Billy Sharp, who's been a huge success, the rest of his signings (Woolford aside, who is and was a poor signing) have been loan only.

Was he restricted to signing loan players only? These up and coming lower league players we clamour for, were never going to be released to us on loan.

More than one person has suggested that Sammon was already agreed before Adkins joined, so was he part of the budget?

We were a really poor team last season, we limped into the play offs and we were taken apart by a team who got battered in the final, so it wasn't the all conquering side missing out on promotion by a whisker, that some make out.

So I'm sorry, but it's far from a simple yes or no question.

And as I repeatedly ask, why do we find ourselves in this position, yet again??

 

[Bladebri]

I challenge anyone to say they wouldn't

I have

 

[Bladebri]

Is Barney your love child.

 

[Darthblade]

Seriously Pete, using the live example we have in front of us i.e. Adkins since last June.

Simple question, yes or no answer, allowing for the squad he inherited, using a budget he chose to spend on 6 highly paid Championship players, most for almost a full season, losing only Murphy apart from those he chose to move away on loan or paid off -- should Adkins have got us promoted this season?

No ...... the players in our first team squad are not good enough or consistent enough to get us into the play-offs and have amply evidenced this over the past few years.

Adkins said this himself ....... at the start of the season.

Since then, we have miraculously and somewhat surprisingly failed spectacularly to strengthen the squad in the very obvious historically weak areas ........

Yet we are told that there were funds available ...........

I, for one, find it unbelievable that we could not find players who could improve our first team squad, within the allowable budget guidelines ...........

UTB & FTP

 

[finlaytheblade]

"By holding a series of Forums to explain".

When questioned about re-investment of money's in from transfers the reply is always, : money has been invested in the team.. ;
Technically that is correct as the club is losing in the region of 5 million a year.
Fans find this hard to accept as players coming in seem to take us further away from the promised land as they are inferior to the ones lost.
.This is logical as teams from higher divisions cherry pick the best from the lower divisions. and we seem to collect
Players surplus to requirements from higher divisions.That seems to be what happens,we have to break the cycle.
Two ways to do this: best way is to grow our own the danger is as I have said cherry picking by higher league clubs we have to resist obviously,
sometimes it's out of your hands money talks and any young player will be tempted by this.

The other way which would in any case be needed as there is no way we can build a quality squad from home grown players alone. is transfers in ::
All managers of late including Adkins have gone for the experienced championship players ,that's not necessarily the cheapest option as a lot of fans
seem to think,the signing on fee can be comparable to buying players under contract.The problem is what do they bring to the table,in most cases not enough , ime of the opinion the the aggression and competitive nature of this division finds them out.
So what kind of players do we sign ? To add to our young players, experience is a must and we don't have to rule out championship players but the vetting
procedure has to be better.Forget the previouse managers they are history let's concentrate on the here and now.Adkins has brought in a number of players :I would think he would agree success rate has been patchy ( loans up end of season ) apart from wages he hasn't spent much ( just Sharpy cost a fee ).Which ever division we are in next season ( promotion is still on but a long shot ) Adkins will have a great chance of building a good team , he's made mistakes yes ( I think he would agree with that ) but with the clear out which he has to do gives him a great opportunity to get it right and if we do sneak up the clear out will be even more severe.

 

[Woodwardfan]

It's very easy to put it as a 'simple question yes or no" when you want to paint someone into a corner, but it really isn't as simple as that.

Has he under achieved this season? That's without doubt.

However, we didn't just lose Murphy, we lost him one game into the season, having had all pre season with him in his plans. What budget was he given to replace him?

He's been allowed to spend a fee on one player, Billy Sharp, who's been a huge success, the rest of his signings (Woolford aside, who is and was a poor signing) have been loan only.

Was he restricted to signing loan players only? These up and coming lower league players we clamour for, were never going to be released to us on loan.

More than one person has suggested that Sammon was already agreed before Adkins joined, so was he part of the budget?

We were a really poor team last season, we limped into the play offs and we were taken apart by a team who got battered in the final, so it wasn't the all conquering side missing out on promotion by a whisker, that some make out.

So I'm sorry, but it's far from a simple yes or no question.

And as I repeatedly ask, why do we find ourselves in this position, yet again??

I'm not trying to trap you or back you into a corner. I am keenly interested in the issue which dominates you and indeed us all.

So, this season, is it the owners' fault or the manager's fault.

I think the manager inherited an unbalanced but quality squad for this league. He lost a player as is always possible at this level, but he had real cash to spend. He chose to spend £500k on a fee for Sharp plus his big wages. He chose to spend it on the big wages of Edgar, Woolford, Hammond, Baptiste and maybe Sammon. No lesser wages in amongst those, no young 'up and comers', like George Saville at Millwall. Loans or not they still use up the budget.

Using the live example as we are all up to date and familiar with all the circumstances since Adkins joined us:

The wage bill is as big as at least 90% of the division, the manager has spent a load on wages for loanees and two permanent signings, he could and should have created more wage latitude much earlier than he did by moving unwanted players away much quicker. Nobody knows the whys and wherefores of the JTW or the loan window but the manager seemed to say he had tried and missed targets for various reasons, not budget restrictions.

Never mind the 'common denominator' and finding ourselves in this position "yet again".

Adkins should have walked it this season. He knows that but it didn't work out. I don't blame the two owners this season. I ask you again, looking purely at this live example why are the owners to blame? You cannot deny that Adkins knew the squad and the budget when he was telling us all promotion was essential this season.

 

[Woodwardfan]

When questioned about re-investment of money's in from transfers the reply is always, : money has been invested in the team.. ;
Technically that is correct as the club is losing in the region of 5 million a year.
Fans find this hard to accept as players coming in seem to take us further away from the promised land as they are inferior to the ones lost.
.This is logical as teams from higher divisions cherry pick the best from the lower divisions. and we seem to collect
Players surplus to requirements from higher divisions.That seems to be what happens,we have to break the cycle.
Two ways to do this: best way is to grow our own the danger is as I have said cherry picking by higher league clubs we have to resist obviously,
sometimes it's out of your hands money talks and any young player will be tempted by this.

The other way which would in any case be needed as there is no way we can build a quality squad from home grown players alone. is transfers in ::
All managers of late including Adkins have gone for the experienced championship players ,that's not necessarily the cheapest option as a lot of fans
seem to think,the signing on fee can be comparable to buying players under contract.The problem is what do they bring to the table,in most cases not enough , ime of the opinion the the aggression and competitive nature of this division finds them out.
So what kind of players do we sign ? To add to our young players, experience is a must and we don't have to rule out championship players but the vetting
procedure has to be better.Forget the previouse managers they are history let's concentrate on the here and now.Adkins has brought in a number of players :I would think he would agree success rate has been patchy ( loans up end of season ) apart from wages he hasn't spent much ( just Sharpy cost a fee ).Which ever division we are in next season ( promotion is still on but a long shot ) Adkins will have a great chance of building a good team , he's made mistakes yes ( I think he would agree with that ) but with the clear out which he has to do gives him a great opportunity to get it right and if we do sneak up the clear out will be even more severe.

I think the challenge next season is bigger than it was last summer as we have so many new players to recruit and integrate. Last season we needed a handful of new recruits, next season we need two handfuls. If it doesn't all fire straight away it can be tough, very tough.

 

[Woodwardfan]

It's very easy to put it as a 'simple question yes or no" when you want to paint someone into a corner, but it really isn't as simple as that.

Has he under achieved this season? That's without doubt.

However, we didn't just lose Murphy, we lost him one game into the season, having had all pre season with him in his plans. What budget was he given to replace him?

He's been allowed to spend a fee on one player, Billy Sharp, who's been a huge success, the rest of his signings (Woolford aside, who is and was a poor signing) have been loan only.

Was he restricted to signing loan players only? These up and coming lower league players we clamour for, were never going to be released to us on loan. That's how the owners will have set things up last summer, with that target in mind and getting everything in place.

More than one person has suggested that Sammon was already agreed before Adkins joined, so was he part of the budget?

We were a really poor team last season, we limped into the play offs and we were taken apart by a team who got battered in the final, so it wasn't the all conquering side missing out on promotion by a whisker, that some make out.

So I'm sorry, but it's far from a simple yes or no question.

And as I repeatedly ask, why do we find ourselves in this position, yet again??

I'm not asking you to ask questions about this and that. I'm not asking you to give a comment on Adkins' problems. I am asking you whether it is the owners' fault that we have not made it.

You repeatedly say "yet again", on three current threads that I know of.

Simple question: From all the information you have on this live example: Should we have gained promotion this season. The owners set us up to do exactly that this season so are they to blame in the final analysis?

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Why are we still signing loads of players on loan after years of seeing that never works?

Was the Murphy money reinvested in our most recent loan signings?

 

[Barney]

Why are we still signing loads of players on loan after years of seeing that never works?

Was the Murphy money reinvested in our most recent loan signings?

The Murphy has been swallowed up in wages. Could be wrong but I think Jim Phipps has said as much.

 

[Barney]

The Murphy has been swallowed up in wages. Could be wrong but I think Jim Phipps has said as much.

Murphy money* before the jokes start piling in...

 

[Pollingtonblade]

I think the challenge next season is bigger than it was last summer as we have so many new players to recruit and integrate. Last season we needed a handful of new recruits, next season we need two handfuls. If it doesn't all fire straight away it can be tough, very tough.

And there is next seasons ready made excuse for next seasons fuck up.

 

[PeteBlade]

I'm not trying to trap you or back you into a corner. I am keenly interested in the issue which dominates you and indeed us all.

So, this season, is it the owners' fault or the manager's fault.

I think the manager inherited an unbalanced but quality squad for this league. He lost a player as is always possible at this level, but he had real cash to spend. He chose to spend £500k on a fee for Sharp plus his big wages. He chose to spend it on the big wages of Edgar, Woolford, Hammond, Baptiste and maybe Sammon. No lesser wages in amongst those, no young 'up and comers', like George Saville at Millwall. Loans or not they still use up the budget.

Using the live example as we are all up to date and familiar with all the circumstances since Adkins joined us:

The wage bill is as big as at least 90% of the division, the manager has spent a load on wages for loanees and two permanent signings, he could and should have created more wage latitude much earlier than he did by moving unwanted players away much quicker. Nobody knows the whys and wherefores of the JTW or the loan window but the manager seemed to say he had tried and missed targets for various reasons, not budget restrictions.

Never mind the 'common denominator' and finding ourselves in this position "yet again".

Adkins should have walked it this season. He knows that but it didn't work out. I don't blame the two owners this season. I ask you again, looking purely at this live example why are the owners to blame? You cannot deny that Adkins knew the squad and the budget when he was telling us all promotion was essential this season.

I have to say I'm incredibly surprised at the nature of this post as someone who chided me and others for our "guesswork" and "opinions dressed up as facts" to them post something full of guesswork and who puts across your own personal opinion across as cold hard truth.

You say Adkins inherited a quality squad, yet no one can wait to get shut of them, we lack pace, we lack creativity, we lack leaders and we lacked centre backs after starting last season's play off semi final with none on the pitch conceeding 5 goals.

He apparently had 'real cash' to spend, but was only able to sign one player for a fee? How many of these up and coming players would this "500k" have signed?

"He could and should have freed up wages sooner by moving players on earlier". How do you move players on that no one wants from a squad apparently "full of quality"? Coincidently, all these players had moved down and not up.

The wage bill was already "bigger than 90% of the entire division". We know this because of the enormous amount of players signed by Adkin's predecessor. A year later and the board are still talking about him and what he left us.

Never mind the common denominator and the yet again? Yes let's just ignore that as you don't like it. Let's ignore it and naively blame yet another manager.

We save the best one until last "Adkins should have walked it this season" - A highly, HIGHLY questionable personal opinion of yours that really doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.

I cannot debt that Adkins knew the squad and budget when he took over?

Really? I can't deny he said he didn't want to sell Murphy. I can't deny that he said the squad wasn't good enough for promotion and I can't deny that he said our budget was 5th or 6th highest in th division.

I'm afraid you're far far too desperate to defend the people in charge that you're not making much sense.

 

[PeteBlade]

I'm not asking you to ask questions about this and that. I'm not asking you to give a comment on Adkins' problems. I am asking you whether it is the owners' fault that we have not made it.

You repeatedly say "yet again", on three current threads that I know of.

Simple question: From all the information you have on this live example: Should we have gained promotion this season. The owners set us up to do exactly that this season so are they to blame in the final analysis?

I'm not allowed to ask you questions?

When I don't believe the basic premise of your posting I'm afraid I really must.

"The owners set us up for promotion this season" I strongly, strongly disagree, as do many others.

I do agree that they certainly set us up.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I'm not allowed to ask you questions?

When I don't believe the basic premise of your posting I'm afraid I really must.

"The owners set us up for promotion this season" I strongly, strongly disagree, as do many others.

I do agree that they certainly set us up.

Is it the Board's fault this season or the manager's?

I think it's the manager's. What do you think?

 

[PeteBlade]

Is it the Board's fault this season or the manager's?

I think it's the manager's. What do you think?

I think it's pretty clear that I blame the owners.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I think it's pretty clear that I blame the owners.

Was it the Board's fault that the squad Adkins inherited was as bad as you say?

 

[PeteBlade]

Was it the Board's fault that the squad Adkins inherited was as bad as you say?

Did they give free reign for the previous manager to sign whoever he liked?

It's 100% more their fault than it is Adkins.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Is it the Board's fault this season or the manager's?

I think it's the manager's. What do you think?

The manager has not helped himself , but we have been heading for a car crash for years . This has not been intentional by McCabe or the board , but having no strategy in place with IMO a autocratic chairman , no one appears to give good sound advice , and at the end of the day does he listen . There seems to be too many connections between the football club and individual business interests , which can cloud decisions and judgements .

I wouldn't want to upset McCabe if it meant having a determent on my business , because of this I feel a number of decisions are made , not in the best interest of the club , but individuals.

A board of yes men over the years has not done us any good at all . A culture change is required , and if it doesn't happen next season it will never will.

Adkins has been so positive , he has not seen the wood for the trees .

It's all down to trust .

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

Did they give free reign for the previous manager to sign whoever he liked?

It's 100% more their fault than it is Adkins.

Subject to a Committee which he ignored anyway, yes. So were they to blame for Clough's assembled squad?

And they are to blame for Adkins' signings as well.

I don't agree.

 

[PeteBlade]

Subject to a Committee which he ignored anyway, yes. So were they to blame for Clough's assembled squad?

And they are to blame for Adkins' signings as well.

I don't agree.

They were clearly culpable for Clough's signings yes, they've admitted as much themselves in Jim's embarrassing January statement.

And yes, they have a major say on who Adkins can and can't buy, and whether these are on a permanent or loan basis. No other club has as much trouble getting signings over the line as we do.

As you say, we won't agree. You blame another in a long list of managers, I blame the people this long line of managers report into.

I'd be interested to know if anyone, Barney aside, would agree with your personal opinion that Adkins should have walked promotion this season.

 

[Gordon cowans]

"I know it's been said a 1000000 times but we completely fucked up with one of our statues,sort it!....& while your here can u publicly state your plans regarding your/our manager regarding long term goals

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

The Murphy has been swallowed up in wages. Could be wrong but I think Jim Phipps has said as much.

If that's the case then fine but they should be honest about why players like Murphy are sold. If it's to cover wages the club cannot otherwise afford then they should say so and not mislead that we don't need to sell our better players right before we sell them and that it will be reinvested to improve the squad.

They would be great politicians.

 

[PeteBlade]

If that's the case then fine but they should be honest about why players like Murphy are sold. If it's to cover wages the club cannot otherwise afford then they should say so and not mislead that we don't need to sell our better players right before we sell them and that it will be reinvested to improve the squad.

They would be great politicians.

And if the transfer fee from Murphy needs to be used to cover the wages of the current squad, say so. Don't say "The Murphy transfer fee will be used for the first team" and mislead the fans into thinking this means we'll go out and buy a player with it.

 

[Woodwardfan]

They were clearly culpable for Clough's signings yes, they've admitted as much themselves in Jim's embarrassing January statement.

And yes, they have a major say on who Adkins can and can't buy, and whether these are on a permanent or loan basis. No other club has as much trouble getting signings over the line as we do.

As you say, we won't agree. You blame another in a long list of managers, I blame the people this long line of managers report into.

I'd be interested to know if anyone, Barney aside, would agree with your personal opinion that Adkins should have walked promotion this season.

I recall Phipps saying they had left the choice and signing of players to the Technical Committee ( manager, MD, Scout, FD, Academy Manager) not "culpable", rather too trusting and too much delegation and Clough had circumvented it anyway.. Do I remember it wrongly? Did I miss a statement?

Did Phipps say they were "culpable" restricting the signings or in not being more closely involved?

"Major say on who Adkins can and can't buy, on loan or otherwise". Are you sure or do you mean there's a committee?

Even if there is still a committee and someone said it had been disbanded, the manager is the main man in there surely.

I maintain that our owners leave as much on the football side as any other clubs do. I've not seen anything here or elsewhere to make me think otherwise.

Now that would be a good question at the Forum, I think I'll change my question and I think I'll ask Adkins to answer first.