Stadium Development

[Greasy Chap Butty]

Don’t need to, plenty of clubs and banks have done it already! But you obviously know better

Ok, let's do some maths. You've said fan income is one of our biggest sources of revenue, so this new stadium has to help.

So. We take the suggestion and spend £450m on a new stadium. Attendance rockets to 40k, all on season tickets at £400. That's £16m a year. Brilliant.
Now what about that £450m. Let's say it was an interest free loan, from a nice bank. At £16mincome from all the season ticket money, it will be paid off in 28 years. But the club gets no ticket income.

Let's say, rather than a freebie, the bank gives us a great rate of 4% a year on this loan. That's £18m just interest. So we the club has to fund £2m per year, and no ticket income, and the debt never reduces.

So, rather than say 'other people do it' , if you can explain even roughly how it adds up.
I might have the wrong end of the stick, in which case I'll change my mind.

 

[YES Blade]

Ok, let's do some maths. You've said fan income is one of our biggest sources of revenue, so this new stadium has to help.

So. We take the suggestion and spend £450m on a new stadium. Attendance rockets to 40k, all on season tickets at £400. That's £16m a year. Brilliant.
Now what about that £450m. Let's say it was an interest free loan, from a nice bank. At £16mincome from all the season ticket money, it will be paid off in 28 years. But the club gets no ticket income.

Let's say, rather than a freebie, the bank gives us a great rate of 4% a year on this loan. That's £18m just interest. So we the club has to fund £2m per year, and no ticket income, and the debt never reduces.

So, rather than say 'other people do it' , if you can explain even roughly how it adds up.
I might have the wrong end of the stick, in which case I'll change my mind.

You know I don’t have the information available to put together a business case to build a new stadium. It’s not something you can do on a fag packet!

Where is your evidence that it’s a pipe dream?

 

[Balham]

I honestly can not understand why it would be seen as “pie in the sky dream land” when Luton are proposing to build a new stadium at a cost of £450m!

Obviously they haven’t actually built it and it could fall through, especially if relegated. But if a club like Luton think it’s feasible to spend that sort of money on a stadium, then there is no reason at all why we couldn’t!

Explain to me why it’s possible for Luton to believe it’s feasible to move to a £450m stadium, but for us it’s pie in the sky?

I’m not comparing us to Everton, Spurs or Man U, they’re at a completely different level to us with their stadiums. This is Luton FFS!

The full Power Court project in Luton has a cost estimate of £450m but that includes the commercial, entertainment and residential. The stadium itself is currently estimated at £100m.

I’d conservatively estimate a rebuild of Bramall Lane to 40k at £200m.

Everton’s stadium costs include filling in a working dock and it’s got a 56k capacity.

 

[PrestwichBlade]

I don't think it's insignificant that 2 of the first people brought on board following takeover were those with a strong record in entertainment, real estate and investment. I don't know what the ultimate aim is, but I've a feeling it goes a bit beyond tarting up the Kop bogs and what brand of ale is in the pumps

 

[Farnboroughblade]

Some fans argue (as above) that we can’t even sell out our present capacity let alone an increased facility of having a 45,000+ stadium, but if the club would get rid of this crappy restricted ticketing system, attending the games would become less restrictive, resulting in the Lane being a sell-out most match days and that includes whether the ground holds 40, 45 or even 50,000 attendances. The new board really do have to open their eyes and start thinking outside the box.

 

[JJBlade]

There was an opinion post on the Star’s Facebook yesterday that said “Do we really need more cafes in Sheffield”? Which sums it perfectly.

Moan about there being no progress, but scared of change.

Like the bloke talking to me years ago complaining about the building of Meadowhall
"Shunt be building that 'ere, should be in Leeds, what der we want them shops 'ere for"

I'm sure the rat infested rubble left lying around after demolishing the steelworks would look lovely now

 

[Snowflake]

So we just stagnate while Leeds, Forest, Everton, Fulham, Palace, Brentford, Bournemouth (all clubs we've rubbed shoulders with very competitively recently) disappear into the distance, while Birmingham, Wrexham, Bristol City creep closer and closer? This isn't just about 'thr stadium'. It's about the standing of the club, the ability to continue attracting good players, the ability to generate revenue, the ability to attract support from newcomers to the area, the ability to continue to attract the odd international fixture, the ability to attract corporate cash. If we wait until our facilities ARE literally falling apart it will cost double to fix and be too late anyway.

..but first you need to decide what it is that you want the club to achieve and whether that is realistic, before deciding that one of the solutions to a problem not yet posed is rebuilding a new stadium.

 

[Rochdaleblade]

The full Power Court project in Luton has a cost estimate of £450m but that includes the commercial, entertainment and residential. The stadium itself is currently estimated at £100m.

I’d conservatively estimate a rebuild of Bramall Lane to 40k at £200m.

Everton’s stadium costs include filling in a working dock and it’s got a 56k capacity.

Luton have been talking about building a decent stadium for at least 25 years. It was a shithole in an era of shitholes. It was on a par with Millmoor and Burnden Park the last time I visited. The only ground where you could see through someone's bathroom window as you entered the ground.

 

[GymClassHero]

Chelsea struggled to get 15,000 before the improvement to Stamford Bridge
Newcastle hardly ever sold out their old St James Park despite it only having a 29,000 capacity
Sunderland couldn't sell out Roker Park
Derby couldn't sell out the Baseball Ground
Leicester never sold out Filbert Street
Bolton, Wigan, Hull City, Milton Keynes Dons, have all seen big attendance increases since a new stadium was built
Bristol City couldn't sell out Ashton Gate and have no history of ever doing so, but they still increased the capacity and increased their attendances.

Wolves old Molineux stadium was one of the worst shitholes in football and attendances got down to below 5000 for some games.

There are 40,000 people who would go to watch United games, they are out there somewhere, if 1) The price was reasonable, 2) They could buy a seat that they could see what the fuck was going on, 3) Stop the loyalty points bullshit for home games, it is proven without any shadow of doubt that we don't fucking need one, and 4) The most moronic decision of all needs addressing and that is abolishing the one ticket per person policy.

It is also proven beyond doubt and is absolutely no surprise that the one ticket per person policy has contributed to shit and slow ticket sales

15 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, if this game was on the horizon and so much was riding on it tickets would be like gold dust, and there'd be no problem shifting them at all.

This. Get it in a letter and send it t club.

 

[haich1889]

..but first you need to decide what it is that you want the club to achieve and whether that is realistic, before deciding that one of the solutions to a problem not yet posed is rebuilding a new stadium.

We've had 125 year of people being reallistic which, is why, a team from England's 4th biggest City (where professsional footbal started) hasn't won anything for 100 years. Don't tell me: you'd rather stay in the Championship than get promoted. Any body would think we were playing in a little Town instead of Sheffield!!! FFS i'd love someone to believe in the potential which is huge!!

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

Upgrading the facilities and capitcity would be beneficial in the long run if we establish one day. Don't see why we wouldn't grow and grow tbh. Other clubs have.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I honestly can not understand why it would be seen as “pie in the sky dream land” when Luton are proposing to build a new stadium at a cost of £450m!

Obviously they haven’t actually built it and it could fall through, especially if relegated. But if a club like Luton think it’s feasible to spend that sort of money on a stadium, then there is no reason at all why we couldn’t!

Having been to Luton last week I am surprised the current stadium (if you call it a stadium) is not condemned. I’m not sure they have a choice but to build.

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

You know I don’t have the information available to put together a business case to build a new stadium. It’s not something you can do on a fag packet!

Where is your evidence that it’s a pipe dream?

But you can see the numbers don't add up and still insist we should do it.
Fine if there's some great reason it makes financial sense. Maybe you could even hint at some other way it isn't a money pit and road to bankruptcy.

Just a season a ago, there was talk of us being absolutely fucked if we didn't go up. Now, the laws of physics have changed and we should spend £450m and it'll all be all reyt. Cool.

 

[Nick Jansky]

Just a season an ago, there was talk of us being absolutely fucked if we didn't go up. Now, the laws of physics have changed and we should spend £450m and it'll all be all reyt. Cool.

It isn’t quite as straightforward as spending £450m though. It’s about servicing a ring fenced debt over many years in a similar way to, say, a mortgage on a house. I would imagine the owners would introduce some money that would reduce the amount to be borrowed and I would expect there to be other investors, for instance if retail or leisure is going to form part of the development. The only thing that affects the day to day cash flow of the club is the servicing of the debt and it’s quite possible that increased revenues could more than cover that. So it isn’t necessarily a pipe dream & it can stack up financially.

 

[Snowflake]

We've had 125 year of people being reallistic which, is why, a team from England's 4th biggest City (where professsional footbal started) hasn't won anything for 100 years. Don't tell me: you'd rather stay in the Championship than get promoted. Any body would think we were playing in a little Town instead of Sheffield!!! FFS i'd love someone to believe in the potential which is huge!!

Sheffield is not the 4th biggest city in England. There is no reason not to be ambitious but first you have to decide what it is you wish to realistically achieve.
Personally I would prefer to play all our matches in the PL or whatever is its successor. However starting by building a new or bigger stadium is nowhere to begin. Forest for example have not yet changed the stadium and are still not agreed with the City Council whether to buy the freehold, but look where they are.

 

[Isar]

It isn’t quite as straightforward as spending £450m though. It’s about servicing a ring fenced debt over many years in a similar way to, say, a mortgage on a house. I would imagine the owners would introduce some money that would reduce the amount to be borrowed and I would expect there to be other investors, for instance if retail or leisure is going to form part of the development. The only thing that affects the day to day cash flow of the club is the servicing of the debt and it’s quite possible that increased revenues could more than cover that. So it isn’t necessarily a pipe dream & it can stack up financially.

Around the stadium could be areas for cafes etc, fanzones to be used when we are playing away and showing the game in a great environment.
Lots of different revenue streams are possible.
Sheffield folk are great, but convincing many of them to think about ambitious plans can be a step to far.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Having been to Luton last week I am surprised the current stadium (if you call it a stadium) is not condemned. I’m not sure they have a choice but to build.

That will happen to BL eventually. I'd argue it already has to the sty. Nobody is going to buy that and do up one stand. Far cheaper to go for a new build. The longer no work goes on at BL the more I fear that "solution".

 

[Nick Jansky]

Around the stadium could be areas for cafes etc, fanzones to be used when we are playing away and showing the game in a great environment.
Lots of different revenue streams are possible.
Sheffield folk are great, but convincing many of them to think about ambitious plans can be a step to far.

I don’t understand why Sheffield folk are so terrified of change & progress. Any new idea is condemned before it has a chance. Anything that does happen is criticised. There is no vision & no sense of optimism. The parochialism is off the scale, and so is the cynicism. I think it’s maybe a self confidence issue.

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

It isn’t quite as straightforward as spending £450m though. It’s about servicing a ring fenced debt over many years in a similar way to, say, a mortgage on a house. I would imagine the owners would introduce some money that would reduce the amount to be borrowed and I would expect there to be other investors, for instance if retail or leisure is going to form part of the development. The only thing that affects the day to day cash flow of the club is the servicing of the debt and it’s quite possible that increased revenues could more than cover that. So it isn’t necessarily a pipe dream & it can stack up financially.

Depends what the other income in and how much. On my fag packet above, if it is only ticket money, on the full amount, it would be disastrous. If there is other contribution from sale of apartments or ongoing rental, the maths can be redone.
In my opinion this isn't our bottleneck. Investment on the pitch gets people what they actually want. Eg Spending a fraction of a new ground on upgrades to the current ground, in 10s millions . Kop being an example. Main gripes are pillars and crap concourse. They can be transformed relatively simply without a new stadium (imo)

 

[nopigfansintown]

There has been several transformative projects that have almost happened at BL over the years. Brealey's plan for an all encompassing sports stadium/hub was vetoed by SCC only for them to fund it later in Don Valley and wider Sheffield.

McCabe agreed a deal with Sheldon Adelson for a huge entertainment complex in the area. SCC approved it but the government, in the end, vetoed it. There's your evidence that serious capital heavy proposals have been made by serious businessmen in the past.

My experience of the development of sports stadia is that they are almost all huge successes. For the simple fact that people want more from attending these days. They don't want tight legroom, crappy entrance and egress, and shit facilities. What we see as the muck and nettles of attending BL. Football is very much a family affair now, - it now has to cater for those people if you want to compete. You can actually see this even at BL: the least shit stands are full almost every game despite the higher prices and them, well, not actually being that good comparatively. The last two stands were seen as crazy ambition when they were built. Nobody would say that now.

BL has the city centre location and enough land to be turned into a multi purpose sports/entertainment hub in one of England's biggest cities.

 

[robbiez666]

I guess it depends what you want.

If we established ourselves in the Premier League and regularly sold out games then there is an argument for a new stadium. I doubt that new stadium could be where it is now as the space is limited and as stated above new stadiums are usually modern multi-purpose entertainment venues. So, you would have to move to a new site, which presumably would be out of town. Bramall Lane is prime retail so we could probably raise a fair amount of money by selling it. If we make it multi-purpose then there are potential other funding streams.

If fans just want a new/bigger stadium, without the success to underpin it, then you build a new stadium out of town, which would be multi[purpose and shared with Wednesday. You sell Bramall Lane and Hillsborough, persuade the council to part-fund and commit to building travel links (it would probably need to be on a tram/train route). Both clubs equally share the stadium but it's used as an arena outside of football. So, instead of being a stadium belonging to a football club, it belongs to the city. The Sheffield Stadium.

I'm not proposing either, but if you want a new stadium a magic fairy isn't just going to come along and fund it. We've seen what happened to Don Valley.

 

[Sharrow Snuff Mill]

Whatever else might be done, the Kop needs redeveloping with proper bar ,food, and bog facilities on the concourses, and an inch or two more width and legroom for the seats, plus safe standing areas, and a capacity of 15,000.

 

[Hobgoblin]

That will happen to BL eventually. I'd argue it already has to the sty. Nobody is going to buy that and do up one stand. Far cheaper to go for a new build. The longer no work goes on at BL the more I fear that "solution".

I think you are probably right. The sty is an awful place to visit these days. The away end needs bull dozing as probably the kop. I always wanted to stay at the lane but I might just be thinking different these days. Football has moved on and stadia are central to the revenue streams

 

[chesblade]

They were talking about clubs having new grounds on TS and how much extra sponsorship they can get. Sounds like Newcastle having meetings to decide whether to extend the ground or rebuild a new one

 

[TaxiBlade]

I had an idea, which would involve much less disruption and less cost.
A cheaper option would be to dig the pitch up, dig out about 5 metres or so (or whatever is possible whilst maintaining the view from all the current seats at their current angle), and extend 3 sides downwards (BL, JS, CS), as the stands are all far away from the pitch. There is plenty of room to do this.
The digging out could probably be done closed season, or at worst a bit longer and we use the sty for some home games.
The extentions could be done whilst using the ground as normal.
Once that's done, it would increase the capacity by maybe 3 or 4 thousand.
2. Either safe stand the kop as a temporary/cheap measure, or money permitting flatten it and rebuild a cheaper/slightly smaller version of Tottenhams Kop (which to me looks one of the best new build Kops I've seen)
That would get up to the desired 40k ish.
In future, further developments could be the extention of South stand, or as suggested if we somehow made longer term PL status, to buy up the buildings behind JS. The BL doesn't need anything. If the capacity was better, could give the whole end to away fans on certain matches.

 

[JJBlade]

People seem to forget we have not won a real trophy in a hundred years or been in a major Final in 90. The ground until recent years was a joke. Try and imagine if we did get even a slightly successful team for a few years then 40000 would not be out of the question. Amazes me that we are only 2000 on average fans less than the S6 Sows with everything they've had over the years, and that the total number of 30K averages, 10, is the same considering they had 7 in consecutive seasons 1947/54 which means in the rest of their history they had 7 in 160 seasons.

Success doesn't matter because Sheffield people don't demand it.
But one thing that always happened in previous decades was if the game warranted it and it was super important enough it the support was there instantly.

This is because it was easy to get in the fucking stadium.

They have added loyalty points, one ticket per person and all sorts of hoops to jump through for the type of fan that doesn't go.
The complete and absolute opposite of what they should be doing

 

[metalblade]

Sheffield is not the 4th biggest city in England. There is no reason not to be ambitious but first you have to decide what it is you wish to realistically achieve.
Personally I would prefer to play all our matches in the PL or whatever is its successor. However starting by building a new or bigger stadium is nowhere to begin. Forest for example have not yet changed the stadium and are still not agreed with the City Council whether to buy the freehold, but look where they are.

No but it is the largest village

 

[metalblade]

I had an idea, which would involve much less disruption and less cost.
A cheaper option would be to dig the pitch up, dig out about 5 metres or so (or whatever is possible whilst maintaining the view from all the current seats at their current angle), and extend 3 sides downwards (BL, JS, CS), as the stands are all far away from the pitch. There is plenty of room to do this.
The digging out could probably be done closed season, or at worst a bit longer and we use the sty for some home games.
The extentions could be done whilst using the ground as normal.
Once that's done, it would increase the capacity by maybe 3 or 4 thousand.
2. Either safe stand the kop as a temporary/cheap measure, or money permitting flatten it and rebuild a cheaper/slightly smaller version of Tottenhams Kop (which to me looks one of the best new build Kops I've seen)
That would get up to the desired 40k ish.
In future, further developments could be the extention of South stand, or as suggested if we somehow made longer term PL status, to buy up the buildings behind JS. The BL doesn't need anything. If the capacity was better, could give the whole end to away fans on certain matches.

The pitch size does not meet UEFA standards which means to upgrade the lane the Kop has to be moved further towards Shoreham st to allow the pitch to be longer. Best way to do it is a rebuild of the Kop far enough back to allow a future rebuild of the lower lane end making that stand one tier only allowing a split for away fans top to bottom. Any digging down could hit the natural water table, John st stand should have been closer to the pitch but was only ever a cheap option that cannot be extended by adding another tier because the steelwork inside couldn't cope with more weight.

 

[Sheffsteel]

They were talking about clubs having new grounds on TS and how much extra sponsorship they can get. Sounds like Newcastle having meetings to decide whether to extend the ground or rebuild a new one

Newcastle have a similar problem to Man United….in that there isn’t enough room to extend down one side of the ground,
Man United have a railway track close to their unexpanded stand and Newcastle have a listed (protected) historical building close to their unexpanded stand,

So for Newcastle the options for their current 52K capacity are:

1: Build an extra tier behind 1 of the goals taking capacity to 60K, it would be a massive stadium on 3 sides with 1 much smaller stand that can’t be touched,
2: Demolish the current ground, swivel the pitch 90 degrees and build a new 75K stadium, they’d probably need to play in Sunderland for a season or 2.
3: Find a site further out of the city and build a 85 or 90K stadium doing it properly.

Newcastle currently have a ST waiting list of 30,000, so some of their fans say building a new 75K on the current site in the city centre is blinkered.

Let’s not forget that the Newcastle owners are wealthier than the owners of all the other PL club owners combined
so some fans think their owners should plan for the future and build a 85 to 90K super stadium but this would need to be on the outskirts of the city.
They could then continue playing at St James Park whilst it’s being built but traditionalists love the idea that their ground is in the city centre.

 

[haich1889]

But you can see the numbers don't add up and still insist we should do it.
Fine if there's some great reason it makes financial sense. Maybe you could even hint at some other way it isn't a money pit and road to bankruptcy.

Just a season a ago, there was talk of us being absolutely fucked if we didn't go up. Now, the laws of physics have changed and we should spend £450m and it'll all be all reyt. Cool.

Look at the countless teams from smaller clubs than us that have built Whole new stadiums (Rotherham, Donny, Reading, Coventry, Hull, Southampton, Leicester etc) in relative terms their outlay has been no greater than ours would be. They don't have the potential fanbase any where near the size of ours. None have gone out of business, some have won trophy's. All increased their attendances as we did when the family stand was built 13 - 14000 before and 25000 + even during 6 long years in division 1. When I used to listen to Radio Sheffield the 'steady and blinkered' hosts would answer calls for ambition with: you don't want to end up like Leeds, Leicester, Portsmouth, Wigan ... and others that fell on hard times at some point. My answer was always a resounding f##k YES, all those clubs have won major trophies in my lifetime & the memories must never fade. Don't come back with the embarrasing pathetic "we won the 4th Division though".
i don't want to be 86yrs old like me dad still moaning about selling Jones and Birchenall within 3 months.

Sheffield is the Historic home of professsional football, we have a potential fan base of close to a million people, 2 University's with overseas students catching a train to Manchester to watch football instead of their local side, we were the polwer house of football at the end of the 129th Century. I cannot believe in 125 years nobody, not a FUCK1n oner had the vision and love for Sheffield United to deliver.

One last typical little club boll0cks: Jimmy Hagan, hero to all those of a certain era was called to the Chairman's office. "Jimmy lad, ..." Wednesday have offered £5000 for you, what about it???". Hagan loved the Blades and was their best (some say ever) player. He said "no" and the Chairman didn't speak to him for weeks. It's fuckin mindboggling how one cub could have so many bufffoons running a club the size of SUFC for 125 years. Breaks my heart.