Reflecting on Today's Result and Recent Weeks

[boo radley]

If the signing of Fortune has affected the players. Then Kyle Walker should be more immune to this as he is not our player and someone keeps pointing this out. If on the strength of yesterday all our players played poor due to the lack of kilgallon not being in the side (and not the fact that Fortune was) Then the one who should be least affected by this drop in morale showed a distinct lack of professionalism.

 

[shorehamview]

Speaking for myself, I would have solved this problem by not selling the perfectly good central defender we already had.

You would rather he left for nothing in the summer? I presume you are aware that he didn't want to sign a new contract for the pittance we were offering.

 

[DuncDisorderly]

I think that Len is making the point that replacing Killgallon with Fortune is symptomatic of a malaise at the club. He is suggesting that we are selling all our players and replacing them with ones that are cheaper, but inferior, and it is this that will eventually take us to the tipping point of permanent decline.

He would be right, if that was what we were doing, but using the case of Fortune is selective (no surprise there then) and in my view is also unrepresentative (no surprise there either). Fortune is only in the side as a back-up because of an injury to Seip. Yes Seip is only a loan, but he is a quality player who has created a good impression in the bit we've seen him. If we were here last year we would be talking about Leigh Bromby replacing Killa or Morgs. Playing Bromby didn't destabilise the club and Fortune will not either.

Looking at a wider picture, we haven't done this everywhere as he is suggesting. We have got Taylor, who is still developing (and is realy only backup to his beloved Naysmith), and who is still a bit short of the standard we really need. Walker has the potential to be a top PL player, but he too is also making a lot of mistakes. His pace saves him most of the time. In every other position we have added a player as good or better. Williamson, Cresswell, Yeates, all quality first team players added to the squad, all capable of improving us. We still have weak squad cover in the likes of Stewart, France and the like, but this in itself doesn't prove Len's point either.

So, typical Len really. Take a point that you could agree with logically, but then extrapolate it and apply it to a wider scenario that you can't agree with.

 

[shorehamview]

I think that Len is making the point that replacing Killgallon with Fortune is symptomatic of a malaise at the club.........


He would be right, if that was what we were doing, but using the case of Fortune is selective (no surprise there then) and in my view is also unrepresentative (no surprise there either)..........



We still have weak squad cover in the likes of Stewart, France and the like, but this in itself doesn't prove Len's point either.........

So, typical Len really. Take a point that you could agree with logically, but then extrapolate it and apply it to a wider scenario that you can't agree with.

That's my main point about any lenners argument. It picks upon minute detail and tries to make that the main item for discussion. Fortune wasn't signed as a replacement for Kilgallon, far from it, but that won't stop lenners moaning about it and ignoring any proobile discussion about alternatives.

Anyhow, I'm off to watch Pirates of the Caribbean with Small SV. Have fun.

 

[Revolution]

I think that Len is making the point that replacing Killgallon with Fortune is symptomatic of a malaise at the club. He is suggesting that we are selling all our players and replacing them with ones that are cheaper, but inferior,

You make it sound like this is some sort of wild theory. It is a fact. We are selling players and replacing them with cheaper and inferior ones. If the evidence of your own eyes or a list of the deals we have done won't convince you of this, the club has more or less said they are doing it. This is what "reprofiling" means.

He would be right, if that was what we were doing, but using the case of Fortune is selective (no surprise there then) and in my view is also unrepresentative (no surprise there either). Fortune is only in the side as a back-up because of an injury to Seip. Yes Seip is only a loan, but he is a quality player who has created a good impression in the bit we've seen him. If we were here last year we would be talking about Leigh Bromby replacing Killa or Morgs. Playing Bromby didn't destabilise the club and Fortune will not either.

You ignore the evidence in front of you.

We had a good centre half. We sold him, and have replaced him with a poor centre half and a good centre half who isn't our player and who is injured. That is a downgrade, even if Siep proved to be as good as early signs indicate.

Bromby didn't destabilise things because, thank Heavens, he hardly played. When he did play he was uneven at best (Derby home, for example). Fortune, it would appear, is going to play a hell of a lot more.


Looking at a wider picture, we haven't done this everywhere as he is suggesting. We have got Taylor, who is still developing (and is realy only backup to his beloved Naysmith), and who is still a bit short of the standard we really need.

So we have signed a poor quality left back.

Walker has the potential to be a top PL player, but he too is also making a lot of mistakes. His pace saves him most of the time.

He is (a) not as good as Naughton and (b) once again, not our player. He's good, but still a downgrade.

In every other position we have added a player as good or better.

Of course, you don't mention goalkeeper, where we have our worst regular in 20 years, although he seems to have found some form in home games at least. Again, he's not our player.

Williamson, Cresswell, Yeates, all quality first team players added to the squad, all capable of improving us.

Williamson is better than what we otherwise have in centre midfield. Problem is he never plays.

Cresswell has begun well but is nowhere near as good a striker as 2 or 3 we have sold in the last 2 seasons.

Yeates has had about 15 minutes football and the jury's out as to whether he will be any better than Cotterill

We still have weak squad cover in the likes of Stewart, France and the like,

We certainly do.

So:

Our keeper is worse than his predecessors
Our left back is a massive downgrade
Our central defence is weaker than it was a month ago
Our right back is not as good as his predecessor and is a loan player
We have signed a good midfielder but he never plays
We may have signed a good winger but, shock horror, Blackwell won't play him
The forward line is at best as good as last year and arguably worse given the amount of airtime given to Evans

So how is Len wrong?

 

[lenners]

First off.... Don't call me Webbo!!

I'm singling out Walker purely for this conversation, as Len argues that he has nothing to learn and has already made it... It's an attempt to use specifics to get him to engage in conversation, rather than being less specific and him ignoring the parts he doesn't feel like discussing

When have I ever argued Walker has nothing to learn? Answer, nowhere.
My argument is cogent, straightforward and undeniably true.
No team in the history of football continually sells its best players, replaces them with inferior ones and becomes a better team.
We've been doing it for the best part of a year.
In particular, Blackwell's style of football relies on a very solid defence and grinding down the opposition.
When you sell your pacy centre half who helps make Morgan comfortable and replace him with a nomark you are undermining your defence.
Once you undermine the heart of your defence, you're asking for trouble.
That is before you start to consider the impact on the morale and confidence of the rest of the team, the manager and the supporters.
It ain't rocket science and however much you choose to argue against this you are never going to win.

 

[silverfox]

It ain't rocket science and however much you choose to argue against this you are never going to win.

This says it all about football forums.

How can any one poster win anything?

No wonder people don't want to post.....we may not "win"!

How childish do we need to get?

 

[NN6]

right Len lets get a few things straight:

you talk about us selling Killa...we had no choice he was going to leave whatever. you say we signed Fortune to replace him...we didn't we brought Seip in who to me has looked a good player...unfortunately he's injured so Fortune is playing. We had better sign a decent centre half tomorrow or it will be curtains for the play offs.

Now re the reprofiling...what are you suggesting we do? do a Wednesday? a Coventry? a Leicester? a Forest? a Southampton? a Charlton? a Watford? a Leeds? a Norwich? an Ipswich? a Derby? a Boro? a Palace? since we've got relegated we've actually dealt with it better than 90% of the other teams

what don't you understand about the current finances of football? it is imploding and we could be part of that implosion. now I realise that you are part of the conspiracy theory that McCabe is bleeding the club dry but we'd be in a lot worse a position without him!!

 

[Foxy]

When have I ever argued Walker has nothing to learn? Answer, nowhere.

I'd find the links, but quite frankly, I feel I'd be wasting my time.

You never stated the exact words "Walker has nothing to learn", but have frequently decided to mock any views which include regular weak parts of his performances, choosing instead to label him as head and shoulders above the rest and having "made it" as a Premier League player.

You've once again managed to side step the question though, how did you rate his performance yesterday?

When you sell your pacy centre half who helps make Morgan comfortable and replace him with a nomark you are undermining your defence.

What I disagree with is that it is the "no mark"'s fault that Morgs gave away a penalty last week, let Bednar goal side of him for their second and deflected their 3rd.

Once you undermine the heart of your defence, you're asking for trouble.
That is before you start to consider the impact on the morale and confidence of the rest of the team, the manager and the supporters.
It ain't rocket science and however much you choose to argue against this you are never going to win.

It's always going to have an effect, my arguement is that I find it difficult to blame the inclusion of a 3rd choice backup player for professional footballers being unable to perform even the most basic of their duties.

Being downbeat about having to rely on a half fit reserve player does not stop you putting a foot in.

Talking about "winning" pretty much hits the nail on the head about your chosen method of putting an opinion forward. I'm trying to win nothing, merely responding to your opinion with one of my own.

 

[lenners]

You never stated the exact words "Walker has nothing to learn", but have frequently decided to mock any views which include regular weak parts of his performances, choosing instead to label him as head and shoulders above the rest and having "made it" as a Premier League player.

No Foxy, I did not say any of the above.
I said all players make mistakes and all can learn. I also said he had 'made it' in the sense of making it as a player. He's rich and on the books of a top Premier club, not that he was the finished article.
I've no idea how he played yesterday but it wouldn't surprise me if he was affected like the rest of them by the continual chipping away at the quality in our team.
That's the bigger issue.

 

[lenners]

right Len lets get a few things straight:

you talk about us selling Killa...we had no choice he was going to leave whatever. you say we signed Fortune to replace him...we didn't we brought Seip in who to me has looked a good player...unfortunately he's injured so Fortune is playing. We had better sign a decent centre half tomorrow or it will be curtains for the play offs.

Now re the reprofiling...what are you suggesting we do? do a Wednesday? a Coventry? a Leicester? a Forest? a Southampton? a Charlton? a Watford? a Leeds? a Norwich? an Ipswich? a Derby? a Boro? a Palace? since we've got relegated we've actually dealt with it better than 90% of the other teams

what don't you understand about the current finances of football? it is imploding and we could be part of that implosion. now I realise that you are part of the conspiracy theory that McCabe is bleeding the club dry but we'd be in a lot worse a position without him!!

Where have I said anything about a conspiracy to bleed the club dry? Answer again, nowhere.

 

[Foxy]

I've no idea how he played yesterday but it wouldn't surprise me if he was affected like the rest of them by the continual chipping away at the quality in our team.
That's the bigger issue.

Did you close your eyes every time he came near play? or are you assuming how they all "reacted" and were "affected" by someone's inclusion which you happened to have not actually seen?

Personally I thought we did okay until the penalty which knocked us, Monty wasn't covering the "no mark"'s position in the area at this time by the way

We then conceeded another goal which again wasn't the fault of the "no mark" alone, except for perhaps in a psychological way!

From then on, it was always going to be very difficult to get back into it against a team of WBA's quality.

Poor day at the office, but I think there were many more problems at fault before you even begin to bring in the psychological effects selling our better players have on our deep thinking squad members.

 

[lenners]

Did you close your eyes every time he came near play? or are you assuming how they all "reacted" and were "affected" by someone's inclusion which you happened to have not actually seen?

Personally I thought we did okay until the penalty which knocked us, Monty wasn't covering the "no mark"'s position in the area at this time by the way

We then conceeded another goal in quick succession which again wasn't the fault of the "no mark" alone, except for perhaps in a psychological way!

From then on, it was always going to be very difficult to get back into it against a team of WBA's quality.

Poor day at the office, but I think there were many more problems at fault before you even begin to bring in the psychological effects selling our better players have on our deep thinking squad members.

Poor day at the office my arse.
We've played poorly most of the season. We have a way of playing which is mind-numbing and will not work without a strong defence, which we no longer have.
Selling your best players and replacing them with dross - Taylor, Fortune, France, Reid, Evans, Cresswell - and eventually you end up where you deserve to be.

 

[Foxy]

Poor day at the office my arse.

Fair enough, I'll say we were fantastic instead then

I'll take it you are making assumptions on the match then?

 

[silverfox]

and eventually you end up where you deserve to be.

We are in the play off places at the moment.

Eventually is a good word that can last forever.

Great point though!

 

[NN6]

Len quote 'where have I said anything about bleed the club dry'

a few posts previously you said 'when you keep cutting the lifeblood drains away'

you can't even remember what you wrote a short time ago...do you make this stuff up? its farcical it really is.

 

[Bramley]

This says it all about football forums.

How can any one poster win anything?

No wonder people don't want to post.....we may not "win"!

How childish do we need to get?

This is it, but was it always like this. I used to think at least there was a bit of banter. Who really gives a toss about winning at argument on the Internet?

PS does anyone know where I can download the GCB ringtone?

 

[lenners]

Len quote 'where have I said anything about bleed the club dry'

a few posts previously you said 'when you keep cutting the lifeblood drains away'

you can't even remember what you wrote a short time ago...do you make this stuff up? its farcical it really is.

Jeez, I blame Thatcher, parents, schooling, the lot.
Read the posts.

 

[lenners]

Fair enough, I'll say we were fantastic instead then

I'll take it you are making assumptions on the match then?

The only assumption I'm making is that we were crap and outclassed - which seems to have been the conclusion of most people who either went or reported on the match.
The thing about this United team is that you never have to go to a game to picture exactly what it would have been like.

 

[NN6]

lenners you really are of low intellect aren't you?


when proved wrong in black and white you again, as usual, completely ignore the issue.

you read the posts and for once accept you are wrong

oh and your last sentence of the above post just about sums you up...you weren't there but even so you can picture that it would have been exactly like you need it to be to prove your point!!!

 

[silverfox]

The thing about this United team is that you never have to go to a game to picture exactly what it would have been like.

Says it all.

 

[Santos]

As I sit here there are around 15 minutes left to play and United are 3-1 down - but of course we are, we're playing a decent team! I will attempt to start this thread with a clear, calm and considered reflection, staying as far away from a rant as possible. So here goes;

Ive been a season ticket holder for 20 years. Many of you who read this will have probably been going even longer than that, but what I want to know is whether any of you stop sometimes and think 'why am I such a mug? This is costing me a fortune and it always ends in tears.' Thats what im thinking at present. Considering the cost of following football nowadays and its apparent lack of affordability for the average working fan - is it too much to suggest that I am not getting value for money? At £400+ a season ticket I would expect good results, coupled with reasonably entertaining football. We might be getting the former more times than not (only against poor/average sides) but we certainly arent getting the latter.

I have never known a season that should be filled with so much hope, that is actually filled with lack of enthusiasm and pride for what should be a great club and for fleeting moments has been. Again today we come up against a decent side that can play a bit......and we have our arse handed to us. I cant see the current manager getting anymore out of this group of players than he already is. Please dont argue of our league position and recent results because the vast majority of our recent fixtures have been against very average teams, the two we have lost being against better teams. Even if we make the playoffs can you honestly see us beating Cardiff, Swansea, Forest, WBA or Leicester over two legs? I cant.

The board dont want/cant invest any serious money in the team any more and KB is hitting a brick wall with the lot he has. I listened to most of the game on the radio and was embarrased at the shouts of "hoof" from the home crowd. Just shows what other teams think of us under this current regime. I had a fearsome debate with Ollesendro recently as he will remember, stating that I had come to accept where United were at the moment in terms of style of play etc. but since I have taken stock and asked myself 'No, why should I accept it?' If I accept mediocrity as a fan im just doing exactly what the club wants - un-ending patience and devotion whilst handing over large chunks of my hard earned money at the start and throughout every season.....

Not going to happen anymore. If there is no improvement in style of play or results in big/key games before the end of the season, I am going to do something I never thought I would ever consider and NOT renew my season ticket. I will pick and choose a few games from then on when I fancy something to do on a saturday. I will always love the club and my allegiance will always be there, but I have more important things to consider in life than to throw my money down a bottomless pit with no chance of a return on my investment. I would imagine many other fans will do the same. Football has been taken away from the average fan, I might just give my chunk back *spits dummy out of pram.*

Apologies it did turn into a rant in the end

Good post Lou, I don't agree with all of it but a decent educated read.

I remember our fans bricking it after we'd played all the top teams last season, we then went and outplayed Wolves, beat Birmingham, beat Cardiff, beat Reading and beat Swansea. Unfortunately Burnley proved one step too far.

I went to the game yesterday and enjoyed it but not in the intense passionate way I did 5 or 6 years ago. What I do now agree with you is that I don't think Blackwell will be able to get a great deal more out of the current crop of players/tactics. I would say that unless we get to the PO final a parting of the ways would for the best.

 

[JohnDenver]

I don't think Blackwell will be able to get a great deal more out of the current crop of players/tactics. I would say that unless we get to the PO final a parting of the ways would for the best.

Would anyone else be able to get more out of them? It's arguable both ways.

I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment, but the only reason to replace him is when you know someone else will do better, or you are forced into taking the gamble.

I doubt we'll find a candidate to persuade the board to take the leap if Blackwell gets us into the top six.

 

[Micalijo]

Not really bricking it. If we were it was because of KB, not because of the players at his disposal. The win at Reading was KB's managerial high point for me. He should have resigned then knowing he can't do better!!!!

Glad you enjoyed it because that is what it is all about. I didn't go and I'm not allowed to mention Keith Edwards on here so I've been very restrained. Hardly a surprise we lost.

Did Blackie try and molest Di Matteo?

 

[silverfox]

Did Blackie try and molest Di Matteo?

Are we really supposed to debate this on this forum?

 

[boo radley]

lenners you really are of low intellect aren't you?


when proved wrong in black and white you again, as usual, completely ignore the issue.

you read the posts and for once accept you are wrong

oh and your last sentence of the above post just about sums you up...you weren't there but even so you can picture that it would have been exactly like you need it to be to prove your point!!!

He avoids answering nearly all questions directly. this is Lenns world.
In fact Jim chimmerney posted an old item that sums it up. I thought it was great, really funny thanks Jim.
Remember though, 'It aint rocket science'


Mrs degoey1: 'What do you want for your tea love ?'
Len: 'I find it embarrassing that you need to ask'
Mrs degoey1: 'Sorry love, egg and chips ?'
Len: 'I can't believe we've been married for 6 years and haven't progressed past egg and chips, it's not rocket science you know'
Mrs degoey1: 'What do you mean love'
Len: 'If you can't see what I mean I'm not going to explain it for you'
Mrs degoey1: 'C'mon Lenny darling, sit yourself down and we'll talk about it'
Len: 'I'm not going to discuss this with someone who quite clearly can't see the bigger picture.'
Mrs degoey1: 'Steak ?'
Len: 'I rest my case'
Mrs degoey1: 'Eh ?'
Len: 'I suggest you think about what I said earlier, I'm not going to repeat myself.'
Mrs degoey: 'God, you're an infuriating bugger at times'
Len: 'Typical, lose an argument and you resort to abuse.'
Mrs degoey: 'I give up. Anyway, Lenny Jr rang earlier, he's decided to leave that job at McDonalds you got for him. He's been offered the managers job at Burger King, twice the money and better prospects.'
Len: 'What ! Why do I bother working day in day out, investing in the lad's future, paying for him to get through school and university for him to treat us like that.'
Mrs degoey1: 'I think you'll find his schooling was paid for with that grant, didn't cost us a penny'
Len: 'Burger King quite clearly had a better advertising campaign, it's not rocket science. We may as well scrap the education system in this country'
Mrs degoey1: 'What are you on about'
Len: 'If you can't see it, I'm not going to explain it to you.'
Mrs degoey1: 'Whatever. Anyway, you always said you wanted him to better himself and that if you'd had your way he would have progressed and moved away earlier'
Len: 'Aye, any realist could have seen that.'
Mrs degoey1: 'So, for the last time, what do you want for your tea ?'
Len: 'Them next door are much poorer than us, she can't even cook and I bet they're not having egg and chips'
Mrs degoey1: 'Then go and bloody live with them then!!'
Len: 'That's not the issue here and you know it. I confidently predict that they will get a bigger and better car than us by the end of the year and it's all down to your bad management'
Mrs degoey1: 'WHAT !!'
Len: 'Look, all the sensible minded people can see it, why can't you. It's obvious, and if you take your head out of the sand and see what's actually going on, maybe you can learn from it'
Mrs degoey1: 'WHAT DO YOU WANT FOR YOUR TEA ???'
Len: 'I bet that Neil Warnock's sat there supping tea when he should be out with the players'
Mrs degoey1: 'Jeez !!!!'

 

[boo radley]

sorry double post

 

[Santos]

Would anyone else be able to get more out of them? It's arguable both ways.

I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment, but the only reason to replace him is when you know someone else will do better, or you are forced into taking the gamble.

I doubt we'll find a candidate to persuade the board to take the leap if Blackwell gets us into the top six.

It's a fair point but on paper we have some excellent players at this level but for one reason or another we're not clicking. I just get the feeling that come the summer, the whole place needs a fresh injection of life. I really like Blackwell and I doubt if you will find a more dedicated manager than himself but things are possibly going a bit stale.

Hypothetically I think it is a fair bet to assume that the likes of Coyle, Mowbray & O'Driscoll would have jumped at the chance to manager SUFC before they moved to Burnley, WBA and Donny although I guess So'D would probably love to manage us.

Our next appointment is crucial though, if we appoint a Peter Reid I'd rather we kept Blackwell.

 

[JohnDenver]

if we appoint a Peter Reid I'd rather we kept Blackwell.

Zoiks!

To appoint a Brian Robson once might be considered unfortunate. To do it twice....

If that happens I'm off to Meadowhall on Saturdays.

 

[lenners]

lenners you really are of low intellect aren't you?


when proved wrong in black and white you again, as usual, completely ignore the issue.

you read the posts and for once accept you are wrong

oh and your last sentence of the above post just about sums you up...you weren't there but even so you can picture that it would have been exactly like you need it to be to prove your point!!!

Look chum, this is what you wrote:
now I realise that you are part of the conspiracy theory that McCabe is bleeding the club dry but we'd be in a lot worse a position without him!!

I asked you when I had ever written anything about a conspiracy theory involving McCabe.
I know the answer and I've said several times I've got no problem with McCabe taking his money out, I just really dislike the doublespeak about transfer funds - and the rank denial of some supporters about how shyte the football is and how shyte nearly all the signings have been this season.
At no point in this thread have I ducked any questions, I've merely stated it as it blindingly obviously is - apart from to the usual suspects.
But as I said earlier, it doesn't matter what I say - the falling crowds and reduced season ticket sales will say it all in any case.