Reflecting on Today's Result and Recent Weeks

[Grecian2000]

Bit of a sad deterioration of a very good thread. Some very interesting points and plenty to get your teeth into.

Len's original point, which I took as being "Fortune replacing Killa in the starting line-up is a backward step and highlights a negative trend, which will lead to a deterioration of both morale and performance within the team as a whole" seems to have become "Everybody played badly because Fortune was in the team", which is a totally different thing and a mis-reading that only occurred "Because Len said it".

As to Lou's original point. It will be a sad day if the method of football we employ drives supporters away but I am rapidly reaching that point myself. It is a real chore at the minute, turning up and expecting another dreary effort of containment and hoof.
There really is another way . . . .

 

[Ollessendro]

Bit of a sad deterioration of a very good thread. Some very interesting points and plenty to get your teeth into.

Len's original point, which I took as being "Fortune replacing Killa in the starting line-up is a backward step and highlights a negative trend, which will lead to a deterioration of both morale and performance within the team as a whole" seems to have become "Everybody played badly because Fortune was in the team", which is a totally different thing and a mis-reading that only occurred "Because Len said it".

As to Lou's original point. It will be a sad day if the method of football we employ drives supporters away but I am rapidly reaching that point myself. It is a real chore at the minute, turning up and expecting another dreary effort of containment and hoof.
There really is another way . . . .

Good post Grecian. Nice attempt to get the thread back on track also. I'll try to contribute to this.

I feel in a real awkward position at the moment. I want what is best for my beloved United. Unfortunately I'm sure that Kevin Blackwell is not the man for the job. I'm not stubborn and i'd happily change my mind, but based on the mass evidence I've seen I'm sure that he is not the man to take us up 9and keep us there). That puts us in limbo. I never want United to lose. But at the same time I want rid of Blackwell. hence, I carry on supporting the team hoping that one day he'll disappear. Of course I want us to get promoted (even under KB), but at the same time I'm sure it would be embarressing. It's a strange old scenario and I know there are thousand who feel like I do.

 

[Micalijo]

For what it's worth, I think the deterioration (if there was any) was caused by people picking ridiculous arguments with Lenners for making perfectly sensible comments about the big picture at BDTBL.

As usual, the people then pick on specifics and of course in isolation losing at WBA is not going to ruin a season. I don't think many people have expressed a disgust at losing away to WBA.

But, the manner of the defeat is for me very clearly part of a decline. I don't mean a decline into lower leagues but a decline into a Coventry type of outfit who struggle to get above halfway in the division. I think alot of us know deep down that KB is not the man and has no chance of managing in the Premiership, but my main worry is not this season, it is the next couple of years under this clown, having to watch football that makes an afternoon at home with the wife and kids a genuinely attractive alternative.

This summer, with so few permanent players on the books we have a chance to go down the road of youth, pace and hunger. Let's sack KB, get O'Driscoll in and hear a statement from McCabe about a genuine change of policy where wages equals 60% of turnover backed up by actual deeds.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

If we got O'Driscoll in the same fans would hound him out in the first 6th month once we dropped in the lower half of the league.

It takes time to build a footballing side, and our fans wouldn't sit and wait.

 

[LouTheBlade]

Good post Grecian. Nice attempt to get the thread back on track also. I'll try to contribute to this.

I feel in a real awkward position at the moment. I want what is best for my beloved United. Unfortunately I'm sure that Kevin Blackwell is not the man for the job. I'm not stubborn and i'd happily change my mind, but based on the mass evidence I've seen I'm sure that he is not the man to take us up 9and keep us there). That puts us in limbo. I never want United to lose. But at the same time I want rid of Blackwell. hence, I carry on supporting the team hoping that one day he'll disappear. Of course I want us to get promoted (even under KB), but at the same time I'm sure it would be embarressing. It's a strange old scenario and I know there are thousand who feel like I do.

Agree with both Olle and Grecian. We all want what is best for the Blades and at the moment the heirarchy arent doing what is best for the club, regardless of how much they say/think they are. The football is primative to say the least and will not yield long term success - FACT.

We need to stop pretending and get real. KB is not able to take us to the next level. Be that under the current regime or any other. I can accept a manager who makes mistakes when he tries things and you can see the logic behind it or admire the courage but at the moment he is making bottleless decisions. Tactically (especially with substitutions) he does things that dont even make sense!

I am definately on board with the 'better football needed' campaign and I urge others to voice their feelings on this. I am not suggesting a barracking of the manager or a 'vote with your feet' mentality - just use a bit of common sense, look at the way we play and voice some concerns. The majority arent happy and we need to let the club know that. If KB gets us playing better football tomorrow I will hold my hands up and would be happy for him to continue as manager but hes making a talented bunch of players look very average at the moment and it frustrates me.

United are exactly where Olle says 'in limbo.' We are clinging on to 6th by the skin of our teeth and cant push on by beating those important teams around us - that is quite apparent. Time to rethink our approach! Its not working! I dont even want to go up through the slither of a back door and get walloped every week in the Prem. Cannot take that disappointment again. I want to go up a good side, playing decent football and give ourselves a fighting chance. The current set up in the PL would win us about 10 points max!

 

[Micalijo]

If we got O'Driscoll in the same fans would hound him out in the first 6th month once we dropped in the lower half of the league.

It takes time to build a footballing side, and our fans wouldn't sit and wait.

Maybe, but a bit of honesty from McCabe would potentially stop alot of it - as would spending money on players who actually play.

 

[Wards]

This has been a great thread, kind of summed up a lot of my current feelings better than I could do in words.

I particularly liked Bergens point. The big crossroads will come at the end of the season. Will we continue with the shit or bust short term philosophy or invest for a phase of rebuilding?

Personally, I'd be prepared to take a few seasons of mid table football if we could change the whole outlook of the club. I think this season is a write off, which may seem a ridiculous notion based on our current position, but I cannot see us winning a play off final with the current squad. In my ideal scenario we'd have O'Driscoll in now.

He'd have 6 months to get to know his squad, and another 3 months to decide who he wants in/out and a chance of reshaping the core of it before next season.

Lets move away from this turgid, dire, and frankly appalling style we're branded with and set up for the next 5 years which would, on the whole, provide me with a reason to get excited about United again. My old man asked me if I wanted to go to the game at Forest with him, and I said no. Never thought I'd hear myself saying that.

 

[Grecian2000]

If we got O'Driscoll in the same fans would hound him out in the first 6th month once we dropped in the lower half of the league.

It takes time to build a footballing side, and our fans wouldn't sit and wait.

I don't think that's true. It takes time but if people can see what you are trying to acheive you can get that time.

I think Bergen nailed the whole issue back on page two of this thread with:

"However, maybe another thing to consider is the lack of long term planning. Blackwell probably knows that a season where we didn't challenge for the play offs would not be accepted. Rather than looking long term and trying to build a young, strong team that could be ready to survive in the Premiership in a season or two, he's probably felt forced to immediately try and nick promotion both last season and this."

Blackwell was under pressure to deliver and tried to do it the only way he knew how. This is ugly and, certainly on the pitch, doesn't look like getting better anytime soon.
If he had been given the mandate to rebuild with younger players and get them playing an attractive style (and that's what I foolishly thought re-profiling was about) then I don't think there would be the dis-satisfaction that there is around at the moment.

 

[boo radley]

For what it's worth, I think the deterioration (if there was any) was caused by people picking ridiculous arguments with Lenners for making perfectly sensible comments about the big picture at BDTBL.

As usual, the people then pick on specifics and of course in isolation losing at WBA is not going to ruin a season. I don't think many people have expressed a disgust at losing away to WBA.

But, the manner of the defeat is for me very clearly part of a decline. I don't mean a decline into lower leagues but a decline into a Coventry type of outfit who struggle to get above halfway in the division. I think alot of us know deep down that KB is not the man and has no chance of managing in the Premiership, but my main worry is not this season, it is the next couple of years under this clown, having to watch football that makes an afternoon at home with the wife and kids a genuinely attractive alternative.

This summer, with so few permanent players on the books we have a chance to go down the road of youth, pace and hunger. Let's sack KB, get O'Driscoll in and hear a statement from McCabe about a genuine change of policy where wages equals 60% of turnover backed up by actual deeds.

If Lenners himself isolates a point, i.e. Fortune Killa morale, are we not allowed to discuss this?
Bigger picture can go on forever that is why we isolate and discuss finer points by starting New Threads.
Now as for McCabe if you remember what he said it was hard to decipher but it stated quality players, smaller squad, trimming wage bills etc. This is all to do with bigger picture but also contributes to Blackwell having to find a way to do this. His frustration is quite clear at the situation. We have no idea how many inquiries he has made in to acquiring another CB at a price that the budget has been set at.
Personally although not satisfied or pacified I think our board and manager have done a remarkable job trimming and keeping us in and around the playoffs. This seems to be stability although on a fine line. To upset this balance by getting rid of the manager at this stage is a massive gamble.
I am not saying that there is no one out there who can do a better job than Blackwell but it could go either way if we were to change at this stage.
Now all in bold above belongs in a new thread and I will copy and start 1.
As for spending an afternoon with missus and kids, I love mine, take kids to games with me and occasionally persuade the wife to join us.

 

[Pinchy]

If we got O'Driscoll in the same fans would hound him out in the first 6th month once we dropped in the lower half of the league.

It takes time to build a footballing side, and our fans wouldn't sit and wait.

Doesn't that mean we can never ever have a footballing side, Bob?

I understand your point but I believe the majority of fans would be quite tolerant provided the signs of positive change were on show. The problem with Robson, for example, is that he didn't actually change the style in any positive way at all. We simply didn't play with any style at all.

 

[LouTheBlade]

Doesn't that mean we can never ever have a footballing side, Bob?

I understand your point but I believe the majority of fans would be quite tolerant provided the signs of positive change were on show. The problem with Robson, for example, is that he didn't actually change the style in any positive way at all. We simply didn't play with any style at all.

I believe this as well. The majority would accept a season or two of lower top half status if we could see an attempt to play decent football. All we want are signs of developing a team that can pass the ball and get results. At the moment we're seeing a team patched together on a tight budget that is being forced to play in a very direct and poor manner.

I just dont understand where we are going with this team and why we play the way we do. At the end of last season we were stripped down to a thread bare squad but we were playing much better football. The home leg of the playoff semi final was an example. We were knocking it around Preston one touch and the tempo was franetic. Our players and manager talk us up in terms of playing at a higher tempo than other teams at the moment but if anything, its one of the things our game lacks!

To quote one of the all time greats;

"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple."
(Bill Shankly)

 

[Ollessendro]

If we got O'Driscoll in the same fans would hound him out in the first 6th month once we dropped in the lower half of the league.

It takes time to build a footballing side, and our fans wouldn't sit and wait.

I don't think that's true Bob.

Pinchy's post below shows that rationale Blades would be willing to wait a couple of seasons if we got the right man. Personally I'd give O'Driscoll time if he did (at least a few of) the following:

- got the team playing better football
- played to our strengths
- worried about our best team, rather than their team
- played some attacking excited football
- started to actually build a team (i.e. a bit of long term-ism, bringing in young players, more long term signings etc)

Not only this, but who's to say O'Driscoll wouldn't do well straight away. Look at Billy Davies. If O'Driscoll took over at the end of the season he'd inherit a good team. We might not have money to spend, but our wage bill would be high and we could attract good players. The Championship is shit and it will be again next year, with thelikes of Wolves, Pompey, Burnley and/or Bolton coming down. Hence, why couldn't he do well straight away.

 

[LouTheBlade]

I don't think that's true Bob.

Pinchy's post below shows that rationale Blades would be willing to wait a couple of seasons if we got the right man. Personally I'd give O'Driscoll time if he did (at least a few of) the following:

- got the team playing better football YES
- played to our strengths YES
- worried about our best team, rather than their team YES
- played some attacking excited football YES
- started to actually build a team (i.e. a bit of long term-ism, bringing in young players, more long term signings etc) YES, PLEASE FFS YES

Like music to my ears

Football isnt hard - those that understand it know that!

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I don't think that's true Bob.

Pinchy's post below shows that rationale Blades would be willing to wait a couple of seasons if we got the right man. Personally I'd give O'Driscoll time if he did (at least a few of) the following:

- got the team playing better football
- played to our strengths
- worried about our best team, rather than their team
- played some attacking excited football
- started to actually build a team (i.e. a bit of long term-ism, bringing in young players, more long term signings etc)

Not only this, but who's to say O'Driscoll wouldn't do well straight away. Look at Billy Davies. If O'Driscoll took over at the end of the season he'd inherit a good team. We might not have money to spend, but our wage bill would be high and we could attract good players. The Championship is shit and it will be again next year, with thelikes of Wolves, Pompey, Burnley and/or Bolton coming down. Hence, why couldn't he do well straight away.

Don't get me wrong mate I'd love us to adopt a flowing passing game.
I just don't know if the majority of fans would settle for 18 months - 2 years mid table. I certainly think the average attendances would drop if we weren't fighting for the playoffs.

 

[boo radley]

Don't get me wrong mate I'd love us to adopt a flowing passing game.
I just don't know if the majority of fans would settle for 18 months - 2 years mid table. I certainly think the average attendances would drop if we weren't fighting for the playoffs.

Quite agree Bob I think crowds would drive dramatically. Who can guarantee that we would play a nice passing game?

 

[Revolution]

Don't get me wrong mate I'd love us to adopt a flowing passing game.
I just don't know if the majority of fans would settle for 18 months - 2 years mid table.

Why would it take so long? Howard Kendall completely changed the way the team was playing, using some of the same players, within the space of a couple of weeks.

 

[happyhippy]

Agree with both Olle and Grecian. We all want what is best for the Blades and at the moment the heirarchy arent doing what is best for the club, regardless of how much they say/think they are. The football is primative to say the least and will not yield long term success - FACT.

We need to stop pretending and get real. KB is not able to take us to the next level. Be that under the current regime or any other. I can accept a manager who makes mistakes when he tries things and you can see the logic behind it or admire the courage but at the moment he is making bottleless decisions. Tactically (especially with substitutions) he does things that dont even make sense!

I am definately on board with the 'better football needed' campaign and I urge others to voice their feelings on this. I am not suggesting a barracking of the manager or a 'vote with your feet' mentality - just use a bit of common sense, look at the way we play and voice some concerns. The majority arent happy and we need to let the club know that. If KB gets us playing better football tomorrow I will hold my hands up and would be happy for him to continue as manager but hes making a talented bunch of players look very average at the moment and it frustrates me.

United are exactly where Olle says 'in limbo.' We are clinging on to 6th by the skin of our teeth and cant push on by beating those important teams around us - that is quite apparent. Time to rethink our approach! Its not working! I dont even want to go up through the slither of a back door and get walloped every week in the Prem. Cannot take that disappointment again. I want to go up a good side, playing decent football and give ourselves a fighting chance. The current set up in the PL would win us about 10 points max!

cf. All opinions in 1987 about Bassett
cf. All opinions in 1999 about Warnock

There is actually as I think about it though, one big difference between now and those two times. About fifteen places in the League. The difference is that those fifteen places cost more now than they did.

Two managers there who served up up some superior shite in terms of football, but we got there. We know Blackwell won't get us there, and God(TM) help us if he does.

We haven't had a talented bunch of players since John Harris was about at the very least, and he was a morbid ferker, and before that the best we had was the great Jock Dodds who jumped about aged 18688769765976497649 years old about ten years ago at half time once.

We're an average Second Division side, indeed are lucky to be considered as such after our travels down the League, and are where we have really been for the last 80 years.

Get over it.

 

[happyhippy]

Why would it take so long? Howard Kendall completely changed the way the team was playing, using some of the same players, within the space of a couple of weeks.

And you think that no win in seven would go down well now? Even in just over a decade, the view is different now. No win in seven, and any manager would be like Mark Cooper.

The big difference is simply that people now think that £££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ will change things.

Well get used to it kids, it doesn't. It helps, but it doesn't solve problems.

Probably the best footballing manager in forty years at the Lane brought seriously negative play away from home, despite one of the best footballers I've seen wear a red and white shirt (Gordon Cowans) being there, and he was the first manager I ever knew to have a transfer budget.

All I know is that I'll still be there, wishing I had stronger beer

 

[Revolution]

And you think that no win in seven would go down well now? Even in just over a decade, the view is different now. No win in seven, and any manager would be like Mark Cooper.

You are completely ignoring context.

United drew 6 of those games and knocked Arsenal out of the Cup in that span.

Plus we had lost 13 out of 21 league games prior to that and were looking relegation certs. The team was much better. It was obvious, despite the slow recovery (which culminated in 9th place and Kendall losing only 3 of 25 games). There's no way even today someone like McCabe would fire a manager with such a record if we had played so badly beforehand.

Probably the best footballing manager in forty years at the Lane brought seriously negative play away from home, despite one of the best footballers I've seen wear a red and white shirt (Gordon Cowans) being there,

Not that season (save for Kendall's first game, at Ipswich, where we were very defensive but snuck a 1-1 draw). The real negativity began, for reasons I've never understood, after Boxing Day 1996.