Recruitment has killed us

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we have to look abroad in the next window even if its probably only loans for better value but chris has brought young players in that we will get money back on if we have to sell thus stabalising the club financially the drawback being it will probably cost us our premier league place i would still keep chris nobody better to get the club back up if the worst happens and im just hoping he has a rethink and changes our system next season no matter what league were in its outdated im afraid hope hes brave enough to make the change
 



I know and it was amazing recruitment then for where we were.
We’re in a different place now and we needed to adapt. Too ambitious to replicate Brentford’s moneyball but we’ll regret not doing more I fear.
We are in our 2nd season in the PL since 2007 and Brentford's moneyball hasnt got them into the PL so far
 
The recruitment has killed us.

I said it at the start of the season and got crucified on here. We’ve signed another striker at £24m and already he’s not good enough for a starting place.

The chairman has backed CW but he’s needed help with recruitment choosing the right players and he’s not had it.
Isn’t the Van Winckel fella in charge of recruitment?
 
Always the same
Spending a fortune on 20 players but with cheap wages hoping that a few come good has always been the strategy, rather than buying 5 proven players on Premier League wages. And then improving further the season after.

Our poor relation strategy never works for very long, never has done, and never will.

The problem is it's not just in the Premier League

When we go down we'll be letting our best players go for peanuts because "Hey, what can we do about it"

At the moment a Premier League club wouldn't be interested in any of ours except for Berge.
The players will still leave though, because even the Championship clubs will pay them more.

We'll replace them with League One quality because of the same wage restrictions, and once again moan and complain that we can't compete.

Then League One, and 30-40 League Two players will gradually come and go until we find another fan who can be manager for a while
 
We are as a club defined by our unusual but enduring system of play. It’s been discussed, analysed and dissected up and down the land. So If we are struggling to marry up our well rehearsed system of play with our scouting and recruitment policy......We really are in trouble.
 
Do people honestly think that our wage ceiling is in the £20k - £25k per week bracket ?

Im telling you now it ain’t !!

At least one player is north of £50k per week and several that start with 3s and 4s.

UTB
 
Do people honestly think that our wage ceiling is in the £20k - £25k per week bracket ?

Im telling you now it ain’t !!

At least one player is north of £50k per week and several that start with 3s and 4s.

UTB
That’s true, but we’ve still got the lowest wage bill in the league, the Prince can’t take us any further and we need a new owner with some dosh...
 
Always the same
Spending a fortune on 20 players but with cheap wages hoping that a few come good has always been the strategy, rather than buying 5 proven players on Premier League wages. And then improving further the season after.

Our poor relation strategy never works for very long, never has done, and never will.

The problem is it's not just in the Premier League

When we go down we'll be letting our best players go for peanuts because "Hey, what can we do about it"

At the moment a Premier League club wouldn't be interested in any of ours except for Berge.
The players will still leave though, because even the Championship clubs will pay them more.

We'll replace them with League One quality because of the same wage restrictions, and once again moan and complain that we can't compete.

Then League One, and 30-40 League Two players will gradually come and go until we find another fan who can be manager for a while
I don't think that this has been mentioned enough .In addition to buying poor players at high prices, Chris Wilder/the club have sold Che Adams,Calvert lewin,Brooks,,Ramsdale,Ben Whitman who have gone on greater things . Assessing player value obviously not his strong point
 
We are as a club defined by our unusual but enduring system of play. It’s been discussed, analysed and dissected up and down the land. So If we are struggling to marry up our well rehearsed system of play with our scouting and recruitment policy......We really are in trouble.
Honestly, I don’t recognise the system we’re playing now. No overloads, no 10, predominantly lopsided down the right, hoof and hope. This isn’t the system that got us where we are.
 
Honestly, I don’t recognise the system we’re playing now. No overloads, no 10, predominantly lopsided down the right, hoof and hope. This isn’t the system that got us where we are.
Yeah that’s my point, we’ve compromised our system to accommodate certain players.
 
100% the recruitment is a big part of where we are, there isn’t an ounce of creativity in our squad, we’ve probably got one/two players with any kind of pace Mouse and Burke.
For some reason Burke can’t get on and Mouse spends majority of season in treatment room.
Instead of wasting a lot of money on Lowe and Bogle some or all should of the money should of been spent on a playmaker someone who can make things happen.
Moose, Burke and Baldock .
 
I don't think that this has been mentioned enough .In addition to buying poor players at high prices, Chris Wilder/the club have sold Che Adams,Calvert lewin,Brooks,,Ramsdale,Ben Whitman who have gone on greater things . Assessing player value obviously not his strong point

I will always defend the sales of Adams, Brooks, DCL and Ramsdale. They funded two promotions. The money was used very well. It was a transfer strategy that I had been crying out for for years - if you must sell, use the money wisely on replacements. And Wilder certainly did that.

We have made more money from those promotions than the subsequent sales of Adams and Ramsdale have realised.

I was disappointed we sold Whiteman and I hear he's playing really well, but he's been a league one player since we sold him, so I think there's a strong argument that Wilder got his value exactly right.

One of the sad things about our sudden decline is that Wilder's transfer market nous seems to have deserted him. I hope that's only temporary.
 
Chris Wilder is a legend already no matter what happens, and we HAVE to keep him even if we go down.

However, his recruitment since we were promoted the the Premier League has been shockingly bad. Wage structure or no wage structure, it's just not acceptable that he's spent circa £130m across three transfer windows, on 17 players, and only upgraded ONE position with a definite starter.

Just picking 17 players off the free agents list probably wouldn't have worked out as bad as that.

Profit of £100 million plus parachute payments seems like a good position to be in actually! ;)

(Rough guesses - £125 mill last season, £105 mill this season less £70 mill and wages and it can't be far off £100 mill profit can it?)
 
Agree....on paper (apart from goalie) our squad is definitely stronger than last season.

Yesterday our only attacks were down the right.
We are really missing O’Connell.....our central defence isn’t as solid and our attacking with Stevens/O’Connell down the left currently isn’t available to us.

Even though the names on paper are roughly the same, a number of our players can't be expected to have the same impact this season compared to last.
 



I will always defend the sales of Adams, Brooks, DCL and Ramsdale. They funded two promotions. The money was used very well. It was a transfer strategy that I had been crying out for for years - if you must sell, use the money wisely on replacements. And Wilder certainly did that.

We have made more money from those promotions than the subsequent sales of Adams and Ramsdale have realised.

I was disappointed we sold Whiteman and I hear he's playing really well, but he's been a league one player since we sold him, so I think there's a strong argument that Wilder got his value exactly right.

One of the sad things about our sudden decline is that Wilder's transfer market nous seems to have deserted him. I hope that's only temporary.

Yes, we sacrificed potential to add players who were coming to their peak. It was worthwhile. But we are facing a problem now that we have a number of players who won't get any better and can't take us further forward, yet it's not ideal to throw them all out at the same time because some continuity is needed.

We've now started going for younger players that we hope will be future regulars, but we've been struggling and it's not easy for them to hit the ground running.
 
Do people honestly think that our wage ceiling is in the £20k - £25k per week bracket ?

Im telling you now it ain’t !!

At least one player is north of £50k per week and several that start with 3s and 4s.

UTB

Our of curiosity, where does this knowledge come from? Couple of reasons I find it hard to believe. Obviously player wages are fairly closely guarded, but the one we know for sure is McBurnie. In his court case in came out he's on £2Ok p/w, given that he was signed for £18m, I would be surprised if someone earned more than double what he does.

Then there's the Lunny issue, Wilder is on record as saying the new contract would put him as one of the 4 earners at the club, if the wages are as high as said, then surely that wouldn't have been an issue..?

I'm not sure who the biggest earner is, I'd guess Berge and Mousset would be up there, but over £50k? Really?

I had heard that relatively affordable wages had been somewhat offset with absolutely huge bonuses for staying up, which may explain some of the differential, but I'd be surprised if anyone's basic is that big.
 
Our of curiosity, where does this knowledge come from? Couple of reasons I find it hard to believe. Obviously player wages are fairly closely guarded, but the one we know for sure is McBurnie. In his court case in came out he's on £2Ok p/w, given that he was signed for £18m, I would be surprised if someone earned more than double what he does.

Then there's the Lunny issue, Wilder is on record as saying the new contract would put him as one of the 4 earners at the club, if the wages are as high as said, then surely that wouldn't have been an issue..?

I'm not sure who the biggest earner is, I'd guess Berge and Mousset would be up there, but over £50k? Really?

I had heard that relatively affordable wages had been somewhat offset with absolutely huge bonuses for staying up, which may explain some of the differential, but I'd be surprised if anyone's basic is that big.
Tax dear boy.

And at what these guys earn, we aren’t talking basic rate !

Often quoted net figures. As was the case with McB.

It’s mostly all quoted as “netto”. Blame Ruud Gullit for that 😀.

This is how I have led to believe it is.

It might be bollocks, but there you go !!

UTB
 
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Our recruitment was to allow us a better chance of coming straight back up.

In this sense we are well placed. But we've not managed to take that further step. Part of that is wage bill, infrastructure, etc which still lags.

If we do go down then I think Wilder needs to remember it was 3-4-1-2 that got us up and it was very much front door football. 3-5-2 worked for a good part of last season but solid football like that doesn't get you the regular array of 3 points promotion needs.

I see some positives with the squad if we do go down.

Keepers - Rammers will either go back to Bournemouth for a full refund if they go up or he'll be a very good keeper for us at that level. 2 from Moore, Verrips and Foderingham will be released to reduce wages. Eastwood and Dewhurst will either be loaned or 3rd back ups.

Defence - Basham's age increases the chance of him staying and he remains the fittest member in the squad. Likewise O'Connell's injury also works in our favour in terms of retention. Egan I hope we'd keep for the year. So there is a fair chance of keeping the 'pistons' intact and having them all fit.

At full back, I can see a club offering 10-15m for Baldock and United taking it. He's one of our better players and has high involvement in games though I'm not convinced his final ball is there often enough. Using either Bogle or Burke should allow us to retain pace on the right. Out left, we'd appear to have options in Stevens, Norrington-Davies and Lowe though the latter feels a little odd man out right now if RND keeps progressing. Plus a couple of those could fill in at centre half at that level. Robinson would also be a more appropriate squad member at that level too and maybe Rodwell or Jags would return to act as back up with it being a level down. You'd hope one of the young lads coming through could act as 6th centre back.

Midfield - that which got us up had Norwood and Fleck as a duo with Duffy further forward and Lundstram hardly featuring. I think Berge would want to go and we could probably demand 30m+ for him given he hasn't looked out of place in the top flight. Lunny will also be off to line his pockets. But we have options. You could play Norwood and Fleck once more with McGoldrick in the Duffy role, a role to which he is well suited. You have the option to play Osborn instead of Fleck and Fleck in the Duffy role too. You also have the choice of playing Freeman at no 10. By all accounts it isn't working at Forest but he has been a good performer at that level and no 10 would suit him. That's already 5 possible options in midfield. You'd still have possibly Rodwell and Slater as back up 6th choices even before further recruitment.

Up top we'd appear well placed. None of the strikers did enough to attract mouthwatering money for a top flight return yet at that level we'd have proven goal getters.

McBurnie - 24 in 47 for Swansea
Sharp 24 in 42 for United
McGoldrick 15 in 49 for United
Brewster 11 in 25 for Swansea

You might lose Brewster if someone offers our money back though you could argue a full season there could be the making of him. But once you throw Mousset into the mix and also Burke if Bogle plays RWB, we have 4 or 5 potent forward options with at least 3 of them averaging a goal every 2 games at that level.

We'd also have the much maligned parachute money and plus a decent play sale tally if Chris (hopefully he would still be in charge) wants to freshen the squad up.

Rather than making the mistakes of the past after Warnock was let go, I think the building blocks are in place for a good tilt at an immediate return, even without further recruitment.

Either way, we are far better placed than in recent years and this season still has time left though a win is long overdue.
 
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Our recruitment was to allow us a better chance of coming straight back up.

In this sense we are well placed. But we've not managed to take that further step. Part of that is wage bill, infrastructure, etc which still lags.

If we do go down then I think Wilder needs to remember it was 3-4-1-2 that got us up and it was very much front door football. 3-5-2 worked for a good part of last season but solid football like that doesn't get you the regular array of 3 points promotion needs.

I see some positives with the squad if we do go down.

Keepers - Rammers will either go back to Bournemouth for a full refund if they go up or he'll be a very good keeper for us at that level. 2 from Moore, Verrips and Foderingham will be released to reduce wages. Eastwood and Dewhurst will either be loaned or 3rd back ups.

Defence - Basham's age increases the chance of him staying and he remains the fittest member in the squad. Likewise O'Connell's injury also works in our favour in terms of retention. Egan I hope we'd keep for the year. So there is a fair chance of keeping the 'pistons' intact and having them all fit.

At full back, I can see a club offering 10-15m for Baldock and United taking it. He's one of our better players and has high involvement in games though I'm not convinced his final ball is there often enough. Using either Bogle or Burke should allow us to retain pace on the right. Out left, we'd appear to have options in Stevens, Norrington-Davies and Lowe though the latter feels a little odd man out right now if RND keeps progressing. Plus a couple of those could fill in at centre half at that level. Robinson would also be a more appropriate squad member at that level too and maybe Rodwell or Jags would return to act as back up with it being a level down. You'd hope one of the young lads coming through could act as 6th centre back.

Midfield - that which got us up had Norwood and Fleck as a duo with Duffy further forward and Lundstram hardly featuring. I think Berge would want to go and we could probably demand 30m+ for him given he hasn't looked out of place in the top flight. Lunny will also be off to line his pockets. But we have options. You could play Norwood and Fleck once more with McGoldrick in the Duffy role, a role to which he is well suited. You have the option to play Osborn instead of Fleck and Fleck in the Duffy role too. You also have the choice of playing Freeman at no 10. By all accounts it isn't working at Forest but he has been a good performer at that level and no 10 would suit him. That's already 5 possible options in midfield. You'd still have possibly Rodwell and Slater as back up 6th choices even before further recruitment.

Up top we'd appear well placed. None of the strikers did enough to attract mouthwatering money for a top flight return yet at that level we'd have proven goal getters.

McBurnie - 24 in 47 for Swansea
Sharp 24 in 42 for United
McGoldrick 15 in 49 for United
Brewster 11 in 25 for Swansea

You might lose Brewster if someone offers our money back though you could argue a full season there could be the making of him. But once you throw Mousset into the mix and also Burke if Bogle plays RWB, we have 4 or 5 potent forward options with at least 3 of them averaging a goal every 2 games at that level.

We'd also have the much maligned parachute money if Chris (hopefully he would still be in charge) wants to freshen the squad up.

Rather than making the mistakes of the past after Warnock was let go, I think the building blocks are in place for a good tilt at an immediate return, even without further recruitment.

Either way, we are far better placed than in recent years and this season still has time left though a win is long overdue.
Baldy, Berge, Stevens, JOC, Egan, Fleck, and 1 or 2 others would all attract PL interest.

Be difficult to hang on to several of them, which rips the heart and spine out of the squad.

Not nearly as straightforward a picture as you have painted !!

UTB
 
Tax dear boy.

And at what these guys earn, we aren’t talking basic rate !

Often quoted net figures. As was the case with McB.

It’s mostly all quoted as “netto”. Blame Ruud Gullit for that 😀.

This is how I have led to believe it is.

It might be bollocks, but there you go !!

UTB

Thanks, I always assumed fines were based on total gross income, not net. I always thought 20k seemed lower than I expected, but christ on a bike. That puts it at nearer £40k.
 
Baldy, Berge, Stevens, JOC, Egan, Fleck, and 1 or 2 others would all attract PL interest.

Be difficult to hang on to several of them, which rips the heart and spine out of the squad.

Not nearly as straightforward a picture as you have painted !!

UTB
Based on current form there wouldn't be a queue of suitors for Baldock, Stevens and Fleck. Especially so given their respective ages - 28, 31 and 30 next year. Someone may have a nibble at Baldock but I'm not sure who.
 
Based on current form there wouldn't be a queue of suitors for Baldock, Stevens and Fleck. Especially so given their respective ages - 28, 31 and 30 next year. Someone may have a nibble at Baldock but I'm not sure who.
That's also my point, I'm not saying it would be a doddle but the building blocks are there.

As long as we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. How much is someone going to offer for Fleck now? Unless it's 20m, which it would be half of, or less, then you are better keeping him. Like I said, I think someone might try Baldock at 10m or slightly over and United have Bogle who looked good at that level and also Burke who played a full season at RWB for Alves. Norwich have gone about it the right way. 20m for Godfrey, 15m for Lewis. Kept the rest. For us, Baldock and Berge and keep the rest. Injury will help us keep JOC because teams won't offer his true value.

The contracts we offer are, at this level, detrimental to a point, but do mean we won't need a fire sale should we go down.
 
I cant help looking at the Championship and seeing Derby and Forest floundering,bet Bogle Lowe Robinson Osborn are all glad to be here also floundering,have they infected us with the floundering virus.
 
Yeah that’s my point, we’ve compromised our system to accommodate certain players.
i think weve compromised our system for the premier league the flat 3 in midfield does stabilise us but its not good to watch really hope chris has a rethink next season and we go back to our old no fear attacking style
 
The thing that is killing us is not scoring. Playing a system where 5 overload the wings and cross to the one striker, who loses it and then we are outnumbered on the counter= its the way most PL teams have used to survive in that league. As has been mentioned recruiting Messi would not score goals in that system. CWAK simply has to bite their pride and change it.
 
That’s true, but we’ve still got the lowest wage bill in the league, the Prince can’t take us any further and we need a new owner with some dosh...
Chris has spent plenty. He's spent the majority of it poorly. Why should he have an empty chequebook?
 
2 million shots! No goals
RECRUITMENT HAS COST US
 
Not sure where Chris is going with his "I have made my thoughts clear about what we should have done or tried to do in the window," comment.

We have hardly got rid of any players for a fee on the way up since Brooks left. There has to be an understanding that we can't just spend without ever expecting to recuperate monies.

At the same time, Chris is heavily involved in the recruitment. I'm clearly a big fan of his but I don't care for the insinuation that the absence of an adequate replacement for O'Connell, who was coming back from injury, is somehow at someone else's door and nothing to do with Chris.

We had Stevens, Osborn, Robinson and Norrington-Davies, who could all play in left back or left wing back roles.

He may have decided that Luke Freeman leaving meant Osborn was now 2nd pick for Fleck's role rather than Stevens' but there is no need to be so rigid.

We spent money on Bogle and Lowe. The former has played in one cup match. We let Kieron Freeman leave for free.

We'd clearly have been better signing a player who could cover LCB over these two.

Now, if Baldock had been the one injured and not O'Connell then we'd have been lauding a Masterstroke. But Baldock wasn't the one nursing and injury.

I think Chris was too hasty to jump into the Bogle/Lowe deals and also for what it's worth to push Freeman out the door on loan. For me this loan could have been done in the last week of the window. At which point he'd probably be having second thoughts with Fleck's condition anyway. An early deal if any made sense only as a sale.

So mistakes were made in the last window. I'd like for Chris to be owning these rather than simply suggesting we don't have a pristine replacement for O'Connell, therefore that's someone else's fault. The fact we ended up using only one domestic loan, no international loan and a gap in the XI after a couple of matches is just plain bizarre.
 



In Wilder's defence, the players that have got us to the Premier League are mostly late twenties and thirties, so he's got to look at the future as those players aren't going to be able maintain the levels required. He's following a similar strategy to Sir Alex who recycled his team every 4 years. We probably won't see the best of Ramsdale, Bogle, Brewster and Berge for another year or so, however Wilder needed to bring in 1 or 2 established Premier League players to improve the starting 11
to help retain our status in the division. He either failed to do this or was restricted by the wage structure in place. I'm thinking of players like Callum Wilson and Ross Barkley who wouldn't have bankrupt us fee wise (£20m and Loan fee), but obviously wages would be higher than we are prepared to pay.
 

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