Pressing

[Revolution]

1/2 games then if the transfer doesnt go through to Marseille we have a situation where he signs a pre contract in January and leaves for free this summer


I never suggested he would have downed tools

Great, and we’ve had him for a whole season, which might have gone better.

All of this is a rerun of what McCabe used to do. Which was a disaster. I give the Prince that credit - he didn’t do this every season.

 

[BalticBlade]

I know this sounds like me being down on Berge, but our impressive football that season was really before his arrival. The following season we were shite.

That's true, our best football was before he arrived. I was agreeing more with the notion of how good we were as a team at setting those traps and blocking the passing lanes.

 

[BalticBlade]

We have a low block, we don’t have the players or athleticism to press high.

I’m not suprised by this one bit. We didn’t sign any pressing players so surely we don’t expect to press.

Next season we need to revert back and press high up the pitch.

Forest have a low block. Have you seen how far away we are from them on that graph?!

 

[AWetFlannel]

Gnonto has 3 years remaining on his contract and Summerville has 2 years remaining. It's not a comparable situation with Berge and Ndiaye.

Which bit isn't comparable? The length of contract isn't as you point out, which effects how much money we will receive for ours compared to theirs, but that's not what we're talking about.

We're talking about how those players would have helped us THIS SEASON. That they are out of contract at the end of it isn't relevant.

 

[AWetFlannel]

He basically did force through a sale with his flip-flopping over signing a new deal. United made him a very good contract offer and he chose not to sign it. It was either sell him or let him go for nothing and if we'd let him go for nothing people would have been on here complaining that we'd allowed that to happen as well.

Whether he went for nothing or not, whether fans on here would've complained or not, all irrelevant to the subject they were brought up in.

Would they have played? Yes. Would we press better with Ndiaye in the team? Yes. Saying, "yeah, but he'd have left on a free after and people would've moaned" doesn't change those facts.

 

[LJBlade]

Which bit isn't comparable? The length of contract isn't as you point out, which effects how much money we will receive for ours compared to theirs, but that's not what we're talking about.

We're talking about how those players would have helped us THIS SEASON. That they are out of contract at the end of it isn't relevant.

The comment that I replied to made no reference to how those players would have helped us this season. You might be having a separate discussion.

 

[LJBlade]

You assumed - and from your last sentence you still assume - that it was sell or lose for nothing. That is not true, as I showed in my post above.

OK. Which of your bullet points above (other than the one which mentions him signing a new contract, which wasn't happening) doesn't result in us selling him or losing him for nothing?

 

[LJBlade]

Whether he went for nothing or not, whether fans on here would've complained or not, all irrelevant to the subject they were brought up in.

Would they have played? Yes. Would we press better with Ndiaye in the team? Yes. Saying, "yeah, but he'd have left on a free after and people would've moaned" doesn't change those facts.

Again, I wasn't having that discussion. I was merely commenting on the comparison between Ndiaye's situation and that of Summerville and Gnonto at Leeds.

 

[Revolution]

OK. Which of your bullet points above (other than the one which mentions him signing a new contract, which wasn't happening) doesn't result in us selling him or losing him for nothing?

You were justifying his sale at that point by saying it was sell or lose him for nothing. Those were not the only two options at that point.

 

[AWetFlannel]

Again, I wasn't having that discussion. I was merely commenting on the comparison between Ndiaye's situation and that of Summerville and Gnonto at Leeds.

Why?

This thread is about our pressing stats on the pitch, Berge and Ndiaye were brought up concerning exactly that.

Someone tried to counter this by saying "they didn't want to play for us" which you then defended, as though it's relevant to the OP. How much we could or couldn't have got for them isn't relevant to our pressing.

 

[Bladezz]

Forest have a low block. Have you seen how far away we are from them on that graph?!

Yes we are miles behind. We are miles behind athletically.

The 2 are kinda interlinked.

Can you imagine a side of Mcburnie /
Norwood / Davies / Slimane trying to press.

It’s impossible so we don’t do it. It’s what I want us to change next season. Be mobile so we can get after people.

 

[LJBlade]

Why?

This thread is about our pressing stats on the pitch, Berge and Ndiaye were brought up concerning exactly that.

Someone tried to counter this by saying "they didn't want to play for us" which you then defended, as though it's relevant to the OP. How much we could or couldn't have got for them isn't relevant to our pressing.

Am I not allowed to reply to a comment unless specifically relevant to the OP, even if said comment isn't relevant either? If so then I'm truly sorry but I'll point out that a couple of you have now taken this a lot further than I intended it to go in the first place anyway.

 

[LJBlade]

You were justifying his sale at that point by saying it was sell or lose him for nothing. Those were not the only two options at that point.

Can you point out specifically when I did that? As far as I'm aware I made absolutely no reference to when we'd have to sell him. I was merely pointing out that we were in a position whereby we'd either have to sell him or let him go on a free. This is in no way comparable with Leeds' situation as they can choose to keep both Summerville and Gnonto well beyond this season.

 

[Revolution]

Can you point out specifically when I did that? As far as I'm aware I made absolutely no reference to when we'd have to sell him. I was merely pointing out that we were in a position whereby we'd either have to sell him or let him go on a free. This is in no way comparable with Leeds' situation as they can choose to keep both Summerville and Gnonto well beyond this season.

I haven't said a word about Leeds. I do not know who Summerville is.

That is what I thought you were implying. If I was wrong, apologies.

 

[vas borbokis]

Yea, too bad they didn't want to play for us

Sure but the question to ask is WHY didn't they want to sign new deals. Clearly any deals we offered were miles off what they could get elsewhere, and the club was being run like a circus.
Who in their right mind would seek to renew a contract when they know they can earn more coin at almost any other club? The only ones we can offer competitive contracts to are the kids, and we can also offer them game time and a track record of developing young players. This is our future unless money arrives. It'll be like Crewe were for all those years under O'Grady but at a higher level, if we can get the academy to a Cat 1.

 

[FriethBlade]

Yes we are miles behind. We are miles behind athletically.

The 2 are kinda interlinked.

Can you imagine a side of Mcburnie /
Norwood / Davies / Slimane trying to press.

It’s impossible so we don’t do it. It’s what I want us to change next season. Be mobile so we can get after people.

Bladezz exactly this. The game has moved on and we haven't. We are the least athletic PL side ever. We have a team full of slow or unfit or small players. McBurnie looks knackered after 5 mins, Norwood legs went 3 years ago (if he had any in the first place) Souza is a traffic cone, Hamer is 5kg overweight, Osbourn is 5ft 2in and so on.

We need more players with the physical attributes of Brooks and Osula, big, fast and fit. Obviously they need to be able to play as well but if they don't have the physical attributes in the first place they will never be good enough

Loada of us have been pointing it out for years but still pur recruitment team don't seem to get it as none of our permanent signings this summer seem to have the required physical qualities

 

[Revolution]

Bladezz exactly this. The game has moved on and we haven't. We are the least athletic PL side ever. We have a team full of slow or unfit or small players. McBurnie looks knackered after 5 mins, Norwood legs went 3 years ago (if he had any in the first place) Souza is a traffic cone, Hamer is 5kg overweight, Osbourn is 5ft 2in and so on.

We need more players with the physical attributes of Brooks and Osula, big, fast and fit. Obviously they need to be able to play as well but if they don't have the physical attributes in the first place they will never be good enough

Loada of us have been pointing it out for years but still pur recruitment team don't seem to get it as none of our permanent signings this summer seem to have the required physical qualities

The Louis Reed fallacy. Scrappy midgets, as I used to call them.

 

[Silent Blade]

We have players with more than a year left on their contract not giving 100 per cent effort.

Such as who?

 

[vas borbokis]

There were alarming signs in this respect even before the season started.

It's not certain that we've got the personnel to carry out an effective pressing game at this level though. Quick feet, tenacity and aggression are absolute requirements, yet for a lot of the games we've started midfield combinations including the not-very-mobile partnership of Norwood and Souza, along with the average defensive qualities of Hamer and McAtee. When such a team try to press high, a good opposition will often easily play through it, and create havoc for the defence. I think it's only natural that we dropped deeper and gone for damage limitation. At the start, before teams really got their attacking play going, it saw us lose by not too many goals. Now, we're seeing the long term effects of such a strategy.

Following the resignation of Paul Mitchell, I've seen the matter of a Director of Football has been brought up again. I think it's time to consider it. We do our best, we've achieved promotion to the PL twice in the last few years, so we've clearly done something right. Yet, we've ended up a laughing stock on both occasions, and maybe a lack of long term thinking, planning, strategy is part of the problem.

We try to sign good players. When we miss out we go for the second, third, fourth, fifth choice, and in the process we may have lost what we were really looking for, what team we were looking to build. Heckingbottom was moaning at our lack of signings, even after the season had started. He'd delivered his list of targets, yet it took a long time before the club were able to get someone signed.

When the process is like that, we're likely to end up with a bit random-looking team. Maybe collectively lacking in athleticism or strength. Maybe looking vulnerable at set pieces. Struggling at crosses? Hardly any six footers? Hardly any attacking set piece threats? No commanding centre halves? Too few right footed centre halves? Lacking in aggression, or ability to cope when under pressure? Etc.

A Director of Football may have the ability to look at things more long term. Make sure that the signings we make means we're able to stick to a style, an identity, even when promoted, and not ending up with too many obvious weaknesses. Keeping up to date with the latest trends in football, with an aim to study and learn from the clubs that punch above their weight.

I vote Bergen in for DoF!

 

[AWetFlannel]

Am I not allowed to reply to a comment unless specifically relevant to the OP, even if said comment isn't relevant either? If so then I'm truly sorry but I'll point out that a couple of you have now taken this a lot further than I intended it to go in the first place anyway.

You are allowed to aid in the strawmaning of an argument, and others are allowed to call it out. No big deal, me move on.

 

[LJBlade]

You are allowed to aid in the strawmaning of an argument, and others are allowed to call it out. No big deal, me move on.

Honestly, I think you just misunderstood things but as you say, we move on.

 

[FinBlade]

Sure but the question to ask is WHY didn't they want to sign new deals. Clearly any deals we offered were miles off what they could get elsewhere, and the club was being run like a circus.
Who in their right mind would seek to renew a contract when they know they can earn more coin at almost any other club? The only ones we can offer competitive contracts to are the kids, and we can also offer them game time and a track record of developing young players. This is our future unless money arrives. It'll be like Crewe were for all those years under O'Grady but at a higher level, if we can get the academy to a Cat 1.

Tbh, I think there wasn't ANY offer from us he was going to accept.
Marseille played "it's now or never" -card and he wanted to go, so what can you do, when you can't do anything?

 

[sufc323]

Makes you think as well how those stats would have looked if N’Diaye had stayed.

I always felt he was an excellent first line of defence.

And before that in our 19/20 season we had Didzy who did a lot of defensive work and tracking back. Even Moose in his purple patch where he looked like a prime R9 pressed well. The Burnley game in particular was evidence of that, winning the ball straight from their kick off and scoring again. A million miles from where we are now.

 

[Revolution]

Tbh, I think there wasn't ANY offer from us he was going to accept.
Marseille played "it's now or never" -card and he wanted to go, so what can you do, when you can't do anything?

Not let him go at that precise moment.

"it's now or never" from Marseille was horseshit and should have been treated as such.

What is this, a Kevin McCabe parody writing competition?

 

[FinBlade]

Not let him go at that precise moment.

"it's now or never" from Marseille was horseshit and should have been treated as such.

What is this, a Kevin McCabe parody writing competition?

Keep him in club against his will, as the situation seemed to be?
Must have worked well..

There was some Twitter spamming from Marseille and it was mostly treated as propaganda.
Bit hard to say did it affect the player or not, as it was personal for him.

Reading the "our PL season is bad because we don't have 2 sold players" seems ridiculous as these two wouldn't fix our problems with:
- rest of the squad (transfers, aging, injuries, bans)
- rest of the midfield
- defence
- goalkeeping
- tactical decisions

There is no clear point that shows our season would had been any better, but it's unlimited debate as no one can really know, just guess.
Personally I am also happier with selling these players instead of gambling 30M+ transfer budget, which we will get almost 20M back after season to be invested in the future (assuming we are relegated).

 

[madeinsheffield]

At least we are shown at the top of something.

Also topping the goals against