Points deductions

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Addison said:
Good point that all the so called expert M.P's on the Government select committee deliberately overlook as they pursue their own agenda of publicly berating Richard Masters. If some of them spent the time researching the detail in the Independent Commissions ruling on Everton they would understand the process better. Unfortunately thats in the too difficult box so its better to express outrage to get the media coverage. The fact Masters had to apologise for calling Florist and Everton small was pathetic.

The EPL is run as a private company with all 20 clubs having 1 share each and equal voting rights. They voted for PSR to be implemented not the EPL board who act in a management and advisory capacity. They did so under threat of government regulation. There has to be a majority of 14 clubs to pass any resolution so its fair to say they can not bleat about the process as they themselves voted for it.

The disciplinary process is outlined in detail in the EPL handbook under rule 50. Again any self respecting authority on the process would have taken the time to understand this. There are flaws in its construction imo but it will be the basison which legal counselwill construct arguments for and against the
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edit --- The Everton Appeal.
 

Still waiting for Justice from 1994 and 2006 , A Swindon or Luton type punishment would be better . Will Man City loose the title this year ? maybe if Liverpool are close ,if not , no chance .
 
William Carey said:
Man City will not be relegated. I doubt anyone has the balls to do that. I’ve been reading some articles about it and it states that if City get relegated then it would “break the transfer market” and also that the 115 charges is too time-consuming to deal with 😂 opposed to Everton, who only has 1 charge so they get punished.
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If Man City ultimately get a huge points deduction then they still would only get relegated to the Championship. That would ruin the competitiveness of that League for a season I mean if Leceister relegated on 24 points and selling two of their best players can walk it what would Man City do. For me the best punishment is a transfer embargo and do not allow them into the Champions League. See how good Pep would be when his best players all leave andhe has to coach youngsters.
 
Champagneblade said:
Never understood why when making a rule saying don’t do this, why at the same time they fail to advise what happens if you do.

There would be no need for much of a process if the rule states “avoid losses of 105m over a three year period and for every 1m over, you lose 1 point”.

How hard is that to remove the ambiguity?

I also don’t see why you should get points back for cooperation. Cooperation should be expected. You don’t get time off your sentence if you didn’t resist arrest, you may get time added if you did.

It should be the same here.

I don’t see what mitigating circumstances there are for Everton to get less than the original 10 points of the first decision, unless some glaring omission has been brought to light. The appeal seems to be based on “come on Guv, that’s a bit harsh. Make it lower”.

If they broke the rules on spending, they were allowed assets they were not entitled to therefore they should lose points proportionally to that.

1 point for every 1m over, simple.

As for Forest, the dates are the dates. You can’t ignore them because if you wait longer you may get a better deal. That’s the whole thing. It’s during the period in question. You don’t get tomboy pay your mortgage because you’ve got some money coming in 5 days afterwards. Same here: if Wednesday’s case is being references then good, because dates were important there and they should be here too.
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Outstanding post. Brilliant solution. 😊
 
It’s never getting sorted for the end of this season, it’s a total shitshow, appeal after appeal will happen especially if little old Sheffield United, Luton & Burnley benefit from it.
We are relegated barring a miracle, but that miracle will not be points deduction for other clubs.
It’s simply too complicated and will drag on way to long & into next season.
EPL & EFL should have their own set of accountants who check and submit the accounts for all the clubs, no underhand stuff, nothing put through that can’t be claimed for and limits set for the following years spending but of course this will never happen as to much to hide/turn the other cheek to in the name of the league etc.
Clear and defined harsh punishment should be vetted out to anyone breaking rules or trying to cover up rule breaking but again this won’t happen.
This would then maybe give teams who go up a slight chance against all the teams in the league .
it’s a sad and depressing situation for football & fans but as always it’s about money, we have fuck all, don’t have a massive pull around the world to draw in the numbers for tv deals and sponsorship so best we get very used to this as it will get worse
 
Shakespeare blade said:
It’s simply too complicated and will drag on way to long & into next season.
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Punishments will be handed out in April and any appeals should be decided in May. And that's it. An appeal to CAS wouldn't change this.

First CAS must decide if it is willing to hear the case. If so, as I said before, I don't think CAS can order a club's re-instatement in the PL even if it finds in favour of the complainant. Imagine what a shitshow that would be.

We won our case after the Tevez affair and were awarded financial compensation. A potential CAS case will definitely not have any bearing on which teams are in which divisions for the 24/25 season. Proceedings will probably take at least a year.

However, I can see the PL not wanting to defend its decisions in CAS, and potentially be liable for compensation. If the punishments that the PL hands out don't relegate Everton or Forest the clubs will probably not take it to CAS. So I am guessing there will be some pressure to show leniency.
 
Dkc said:
Punishments will be handed out in April and any appeals should be decided in May. And that's it. An appeal to CAS wouldn't change this.

First CAS must decide if it is willing to hear the case. If so, as I said before, I don't think CAS can order a club's re-instatement in the PL even if it finds in favour of the complainant. Imagine what a shitshow that would be.

We won our case after the Tevez affair and were awarded financial compensation. A potential CAS case will definitely not have any bearing on which teams are in which divisions for the 24/25 season. Proceedings will probably take at least a year.

However, I can see the PL not wanting to defend its decisions in CAS, and potentially be liable for compensation. If the punishments that the PL hands out don't relegate Everton or Forest the clubs will probably not take it to CAS. So I am guessing there will be some pressure to show leniency.
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Sort of my point, they won’t relegate them as to much of a shit show to follow, they aren’t even hearing the appeals to after the end of the season so what happens do the relegated teams just await the appeal, I don’t think so, its a mess.
I believe they’ll hand them just enough to make any appeal’s irrelevantas I said the miracle we need won’t involve a points deduction, the only thing we can do is get close enough to make matters very interesting but little of Sheffield United will definitely be on the wrong end if we do get close enough and we will still get relegated
 
When do they hand out the premier league golden tickets or whatever they call them? Surely once that’s done it’s done otherwise there’d be utter chaos
 
Not so Slim ane said:
In all seriousness if Everton and Forest get deducted say 30 points each, would you want to stop up?
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Get what ya saying .. it would be used against us for years. But the piss taking would blow over eventually and we would be millions of quid better off and probably have better players etc to help us become established in prem. optimistic I know but it could happen. It won’t happen if we go down so yeh I’d want to stop up. I can deal with the piss taking no problems. Sticks n stones n all that
 
Shakespeare blade said:
I believe they’ll hand them just enough to make any appeal’s irrelevant
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There will still be five games to go (I think) when they announce the decision. They are probably hoping that Forest and Everton are sufficiently clear of the drop zone to make a points deduction irrelevant. A team's league position should't have any bearing on the severity of the punishment but it might. Especially if the PL will face massive compensation claims if the punished clubs are relegated.

Saying that, if Everton were docked 10 points for FFP breaches, they surely must deduct points from Forest. I could see it only being 4 or 5 points, as the offence is less severe. But Forest can surely expect some kind of deduction
 
Dkc said:
There will still be five games to go (I think) when they announce the decision. They are probably hoping that Forest and Everton are sufficiently clear of the drop zone to make a points deduction irrelevant. A team's league position should't have any bearing on the severity of the punishment but it might. Especially if the PL will face massive compensation claims if the punished clubs are relegated.

Saying that, if Everton were docked 10 points for FFP breaches, they surely must deduct points from Forest. I could see it only being 4 or 5 points, as the offence is less severe. But Forest can surely expect some kind of deduction
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6 points is the minimum
 
Again a lot of these recent posts are saying 'they' when in fact it is 'we'. The PL clubs all voted for these rules and for these sanctions and deliberately didn't specify what the sanction is.

Those saying this will never be sorted out in time are incorrect. There is a deliberate, new timeline written into the rules. That is why all teams accounts had to be submitted by 31 Dec. I can't be arsed to read the rules but the dates the PL ruling body has to announce any sanction by, how long a club has to appeal and the date of the final verdict have all been deliberately set to make sure its all sorted by the end of the season.

EDIT The reason why Everton will get a double deduction in one season is that this is the first season of having to submit accounts by 31 Dec and the new timeline. So the ruling body were still dealing with Evertons transgression from the previous 3 year timeline. Tje second deduction will be for the 3 years that had to be submitted by 31 Dec 2023....and if they are still above the loss allowance for 3 years ending this season there will be another deduction after they submit their accounts on 31 Dec 2024.

Again remember the rules and whole process were all voted for by the clubs who 'are' the premier league
 

The issue is, at the top of the league (the only part of the league they really think about) a 6 point deduction is huge.
The average number of defeats by the champions in the last 10 years is 4, so to have 6 points docked means you only have 2-3 left that you can afford. to lose.

At the bottom of the league, where FFP actually creates a larger uncompetitive advantage and is more like to put the club at risk, it's not.
A team with the advantages of breaking FFP can easily claw back 9, 12, even 15 points against sides who haven't, so it's not a deterrent.
Their squads are deeper, the players are better, the injuries impact less, they can handle the schedules more, it's a massive advantage.
It would need to be 20 points before it made a real dent.
 
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Silent Blade said:
6 points is the minimum
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If Forest receive the six point minimum penalty and we beat them at the Lane in May we'd go above them on current points totals.

Must say that they have looked more competitive than us whenever I've seen them, and the chances are that they'll gain six more points over us before May. But it would be fantastic if we knew we'd leapfrog them if we beat them. We can dream.
 
Shakespeare blade said:
Sort of my point, they won’t relegate them as to much of a shit show to follow, they aren’t even hearing the appeals to after the end of the season so what happens do the relegated teams just await the appeal, I don’t think so, its a mess.
I believe they’ll hand them just enough to make any appeal’s irrelevantas I said the miracle we need won’t involve a points deduction, the only thing we can do is get close enough to make matters very interesting but little of Sheffield United will definitely be on the wrong end if we do get close enough and we will still get relegated
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the points deduction relegated wendies , who cared and after getting 6 back
 
blade too long said:
they docked boro 3 points in the prem that sent them down, so they have no problem docking points from Northern clubs
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Hopefully that includes Forest.

Can't help thinking that Everton might be seen as 'too big to fail'. And we all know how much the PL loves the historic, traditional, loveable Scouse derbies, even if none of us do.
 
Not so Slim ane said:
In all seriousness if Everton and Forest get deducted say 30 points each, would you want to stop up?
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With regards to this, if other clubs get big points deductions that enable us to stay up then yes, I’d take it. And I’d wave at them as they sank down below us, at least metaphorically speaking. I’d also be laughing at them for the entire time they cried at getting relegated, and enjoy the taste of their salty, salty tears.

They’ve been ripping the piss out of us since before the season started for being shit, it would be deliciously ironic if we managed to stay up after what has already been a complete clusterfuck since the end of last season.

If our less illustrious neighbours across the city start on about it from their future exhaled spot in La Threega then I’d laugh even more. “You only stayed up because of blah blah blah oink oink.” Suck it up, bitches.
 
Not so Slim ane said:
In all seriousness if Everton and Forest get deducted say 30 points each, would you want to stop up?
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Don't remember Villa offering to give us the points we were robbed of on a goal line tech bollock that kept them up

They'd been poor that season but it let them improve stay up on the backs of others faults Id take it in a heart beat

If we got another q50m quid we can improve like they got the chance to
 
Dkc said:
Hopefully that includes Forest.

Can't help thinking that Everton might be seen as 'too big to fail'. And we all know how much the PL loves the historic, traditional, loveable Scouse derbies, even if none of us do.
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There hasn’t been a decent Merseyside derby for yonks.
 
ekke287 said:
I think we should aim to win all our games instead of relying on what may or may not happen elsewhere.

Then we’ve done all we can do come the end of the season, and if some team gets deducted and ends up below us so be it.
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blade too long said:
Don't remember Villa offering to give us the points we were robbed of on a goal line tech bollock that kept them up

They'd been poor that season but it let them improve stay up on the backs of others faults Id take it in a heart beat

If we got another q50m quid we can improve like they got the chance to
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We won’t improve as Villa have done until we start paying the wages
 
It goes to show that although we’ve spent a pittance on players ourselves how much would we have needed to spend to make us competitive? Both Forest and Villa replaced a considerable amount of players when they were first promoted at some cost just to have better quality and only just stayed up (we were on the crest of a wave) and that’s why we may have crashed and burned because we needed to keep spending with money the Prince and Club didn’t have.
 
Addison said:
Evertons appeal against their 10 point deduction was heard between 1-3 February. A decision to be made 14 days thereafter so expect an announcement some time around 17 February.

Thereafter dates for Florist and Evertons second offence have to be set and concluded by 5 April. Decisions on these to be no later than 12 April. 7 days to appeal thereafter and appeals/decisions to be concluded by 24 May, one week after the end of the season!

In summary we will know the outcome of Evertons first sanction shortly. That should be the end of the matter in line with EPL regulations but don't rule out a further appeal to the Court of Sports arbitration if Everton are not happy. There is no narrative available on the appeal pleadings over the 3 days so we do not know if the EPL have contested the appeal. If they have not it opens the door to a reduction of the original sanction of -10 points. Legal argument that the original decision failed to quantify on what basis the 10 points were calculated in the absence of a tariff table similar to the EFL process could also persuade the appeal body to downgrade the figure used. They would still have to provide reasons as to why they have come to that decision, preferably in written form.

What is clear is that pundits and media mouthpieces like Jordan have no legal grasp of the detail behind the sanctions applied. Any comment made as to the outcome is pure speculation and not worthy of consideration.

The process for applying further sanctions to Everton and Florist for the first time will take us beyond the end of the season. That may include additional new legal action by the relegated clubs dependant on the decisions affecting their EPL status.
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By way of an update the decision of the Independent Commission Appeal Panel(ICAP) is rumoured to be announced in the next 24-48 hours. In the Civil Court process parties are usually informed of a Judgement 48 hours before they are handed down to allow for the preparation of pleadings. The EPL's disciplinary process is designed along similar lines but it is not clear whether the same timeframe applies.

Everton appointed Laurence Rabinowitz KC dubbed the super silk and a leading expert on commercial litigation. Everton plead the original Independent Commission(IC) decision was disproportionate and unjust and that if a financial sporting sanction is to be applied it should be in the form of a transfer ban.

The EPL will rely on the IC's view that Sheffield Wednesday v The Football League set precedent for sporting sanctions in the form of points deductions in scenarios where there are breaches of financial rules. Everton will likely have counter argued there was no EPL sanction formula in place at the time they were charged last season in March and any now can not be applied retrospectively.

The EPL may argue the IC's decision to apply a 10 point deduction was not based on any formula. The IC whilst hearing submissions referring to the EPL Boards August 2024 draft sanctions matrix declined to consider them on the basis of rule 51.10 of the EPL's disciplinary process which empowers IC irrespective of any rule to consider the individual merits of a case. A catch all clause. Everton may argue despite the IC's intentions the points deduction of 10 looks suspiciously like the August 2024 formula of 6 points for an initial offence plus 1 additional point for each £5m of overspend. The IC found Everton overspent by £19m. Everton may also pursue the point about the lack of any written reasons as to how the figure of 10 was arrived at.

It has been suggested Everton will also raise arguments that a club should not be sanctioned twice in the same season for the same offence putting a marker down for Evertons second PSR breach hearing in April.

What will be the outcome? no one will know until the decision is announced although that will not stop the so called experts in the media speculating. It is difficult to give an informed opinion as the application of PSR sanctions is in its infancy. Precedent is confined to one case with possibly Birminghams EFL case being another authority.

The fact the EPL's disciplinary rules have a catch all clause contained in them that allows any IC to "Order as they see fit" means we are likely to see inconsistency that will be open to challenge. In any event the EPL rules allow for a further challenge to the appeal decision to be heard by one single arbitrator within a matter of days so this first sanction may not be concluded this week.
 

And so it begins. Guess the Everton Appeal outcome from self appointed punditry legal experts.

Jeff rants its a disgrace its taking so long to make a decision. It was only heard two weeks ago Jeff. 3 days of arguments and pleadings from leading counsel and then the 3 man panel required to review the evidence and come up with written reasons for the decision within 14 days was always a tight timescale. The original IC's written reasons were 41 pages long. Its likely the Appeal will be of similar volume.

Font of all knowledge on legal process Jordan believes there will be an increase in points if Everton fail because thats what happens if you appeal. Er no it doesn't Simon. Read EPL disciplinary rule 50 to understand how it all works and look back to previous FFP appeals before you spout your usual bollocks.

Jamie C says there's a feeling in football, meaning Everton supporting fans like himself and Andy Burnham MP, there will be a reduction. Well thats an informed opinion based on the fact its 50/50 whether there is a reduction or not.

More likely to jump on the bandwagon in the coming days. In the words of Thin Lizzy " don't believe a word" until the formal announcement is made.

www.goodisonnews.com

Everton: Jeff Stelling hits out at Premier League in appeal rant

Jeff Stelling has hit out at the Premier League in a new Everton points-deduction appeal rant live on talkSPORT.
www.goodisonnews.com www.goodisonnews.com

www.everton.news

Simon Jordan outlines Everton’s ‘bigger concern’ ahead of their appeal verdict

'There’s more coming...'
www.everton.news www.everton.news

www.mirror.co.uk

Jamie Carragher has Everton theory that could see them get points back on appeal

Everton are expecting to discover the result of their appeal against a points deduction later this week, with Liverpool legend Jamie Carragher confident they will be successful
www.mirror.co.uk www.mirror.co.uk
 
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